Proof for ETI: Part 2

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All he has done, is to insult non stop or say one stupid thing after the other - this is why he is getting the flack is he getting.

Once again you pervert the truth to suit your needs. I asked questions and you responded by insulting me and calling me stupid. If you're going to continue to lie, at least have the decency to make it plausible.

Your ignorance is equaled only by your penchant to decieve.
 
moementum7 said:
It is possible that these were built by humans.
But I find that just as difficult to belive as another race being able to do the same thing.
Either way, something is up.
That is plenty reasonable... with the small addition that you may have misjudged what you actually saw (hell, even pilots do this). Nothing is wrong with saying "it 'could' have been an alien craft". The problem is assuming that that is somehow backed up.
 
This is a question for the skeptics:

If we were to exist for another million years, how do you imagine us to be, in particular, what sort of technologies do you think we would be capable of, and what would be the state of our productivity, economy and geo-politics?

I am genuinely interested in what you have to say.
 
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1,000,000 years into the future? Some projection, as modern humans we only have about 100,000 years of past. Assuming we survive that long, don't nuke each other, drop a biological weapon, poison the planet with emissions, or fall foul of a natural disaster, what technology would we have?

Really hard to say, isn't it, as technological advances progress exponentially, and we have such a small history of technology to look back on.

I'm sure in a million years however, scientists will have full understanding of the GUT (Grand Universal Theory) that links quantum effects to relativity. I'm sure fusion will be an easy, cheap, and clean way of producing energy. I'd like to think we don't have to work, and live in a free, fair and stable society, where there is no poverty, and good education and healthcare for all. I'd like to think that technology could make all this possible.

As to other new developments, we can only do what we can do, and we won't know that until we have the GUT.
 
Interesting Phlogistician; although I would liketo you to elaborate and speculate on some things. Please use this as a guideline:

Energy generation and production: Could you estimate how much energy we would generate per annum, and speculate on the methods employed.

Society: Could you say what kind of society this would be, it's cultural values, how integrated it is with the global community and the state of geo-politics.

Education: How far-reaching would this education be and how would it be conducted, do you imagine there to be further paradigm shifts in our sciences?

Healthcare: How do you imagine this to be conducted? How will we deal with dangerous viral infections, severe injuries, brain diseases etc

Biology: How do you imagine the the biology of the average human; his intelligence; his life span; digestion; hibernation and his reproduction. What sort of abilities do you think biologists would be capable of?

Communications: How will we send and recieve information, and how will the information be displayed.

Computing and artificial intelligence: What mechanism would computers and AI function on, and what kind of abilities do you think they would be capable of.

Warfare: How will wars be fought, what kind of weaponary and defence infratructure would we have and how powerful this weaponary would be. How do you imagine the armed forces?

Space: How much of space would we have explored, and what kind of infrastructure would we have in place in space?

Propulsion and transport: How do you imagine man travelling across vast distances, and what kind of propulsion systems will our space craft and commercial aircraft utilize. Do you think manned and/or unmanned interstellar travel will be possible?

Habitation and Environment: How do you think we will be able to effect our environment. Will we be able to control our weather, and if yes, what technology do you imagine to do that? How much of our planet do you think we will populate(land/sea/subterran)

Entertainment and life: How do you imagine human life to be from childhood to old age.

Advanced science and physics: What kind of advanced science and physics concepts, will scientists ponder, or do you think, we would have learnt everything there is to know?
 
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You're not asking much are you Crazymikey?! You want Phlogistician to describe every facet of the science, technology, politics and culture of a civilisation 1,000,000 years distant? Come on... could you even go into the "advanced science and physics concepts" investigated by today's researchers? -I know I couldn't.

Anyway, I expect that this request was made in the knowledge that a realistic answer is impossible, a fact which you will then be able to use to justify assiging arbitrary abilities to the Earth's proposed visitors (please forgive me if I'm wrong - I don't mean to offend).

Some subjects that I would hazard a guess on though: I think that AI machines will soon (much, much sooner than 1 Ma) challenge humans as the most powerful minds on the planet. I also think that they will be the pilots of most (all?) interstellar missions in the future.
I don't think that gravity will be harnessed as a source of propulsion, nor that the vacuum energy will ever be exploited (history prove me wrong... please!). I think that space travel will be forever limited to rocketry of varying sorts and to solar sailing (wind or light). Therefore, I think that interstellar missions will always be very difficult.
Interstellar exploration I see being conducted by Von Neumann probes.

These speculations are sure to be naive and misguided, so I wouldn't dare to address the other points, about which I am even more ignorant.
 
Hi Faulty, yes I am asking for too much, but it is not an impossible task. You have guessed right, it's obvious there is a connection to ETI, otherwise, why would I ask it here?
 
He he.. I'm wasted here. Maybe I should see what Scotland Yard are offering for minds as astute as my own. :)

Seriously though, how do you see the future (with and without ET's input).
 
That wasn't a rhetorical question. I actually wanted to ask what your predictions would be.
 
Either way, something is up.
On the base of what you saw, if i was there, i would most probably agree.
Lemming, I am surprised you would support Q.
I dont support any attacks but i believe he did have a point some time ago(i may be wrong and thinking of someone else if so i apologise) and i believe he is trying to argue his views, like all of us.
If we really were just against him, because he does not believe, then why aren't we doing the same to you?
I dont think your all against him, i think what moementum said came out wrong, i dont believe what he said is what he meant and would hope he realises and corrects it, if he did mean it then i might aswell not be here either, but i hope thats not the case and we do all want a discussion.

As for the 1000000 years into the future, it is impossible to tell, rate of technology advance changes, and the policy of 'if it aint broke dont fix it' might actually become widely accepted and technology advance could grind to a halt. Also we may not live that long, or at least not on this planet, to put it simply, its impossible to predict and anything can happen.
 
there will be 2 groups of society, those who 'like to share' and those who 'like to order'

this is supposedly how all cultures develop past 3rd density existance.

u either want to help others (share) or help yourself (order) and this will determine where you live. advanced civilizations realize that segregation of these 2 groups will make life better, easier, and more effecient. those who want to share and help others are able to without worrying about individuals taking advantage of them (the self-centered). those who choose to be self-centered will find themselves in a society similar to dictatorship, where the people compete for control over the others below them.

humans will co-exist with the many other life forms that live around us, namely the Greys from Zet 2 Ret and perhaps others from Orion and Lyra. After having the Earth accept the existance of ETI, they finally were able to present themselves in a proper manner, providing the new earth with even more advanced technologies.
there will still be the segregation between the 2 groups, even ETIs fall into the 2 categories named above (all intelligent life forms)

i dont have to tell you how the self-centered society will work, because it is very similar to the world today.

let me tell you how i imagine a group-centered society will be in the far future:
with the newly developed ability of telepathy, humans are able to communicate instantly, much like the internet has made possible. this means that any concerns of an individual are immediately transmitted to the entire group, and action can be taken just as fast. if something is wrong, the group already knows, and resources can be found easily. the man with the answer is able to tell them he will take care of it, and the group can continue with something else. maximizing time effeciency.

those who arent group-oriented, but are self-centered, will find it hard to maintain in this kind of society, because his selfish intentions will be seen by everyone (telepathy) so people like these will leave group-centered societies- and join the other societies where fear and control are the main tools, not information.

i will go into crazymikeys detailed questions when i have some more free time
 
zonabi

The question was directed to speculate the future based on reality and not your personal delusions.
 
My motives for asking this question and projecting 1 million years into the future, was to gauge how open-minded(which I construe as a measure of intelligence) and how much the skeptics could extend themselves, and in general, their awareness of the latest developments in technology. As I expected; not too far at all.

1: How open-minded the skeptics are
2: How versed are the skeptics in science

It is true, that there is no right answer to what we maybe capable of in 1 million years from now assuming we still existed without any fatal setbacks to our growth. However, we can still, intelligently extrapolate from our current scientific and technological position and it's exponential growth.

Now Phlogistician forecast, although vague, was this:

Cheap and clean energy production with fusion
Complete working knowledge of GUT
Good educational and healthcare system for all

Phlogistican's forecast of the future is extremely limiting. He refuses to leave the confines of today even in a hypothetical 1 million years into the future. Further more, he seems completely unaware of current science.

1. Fusion as an energy source:

Fusion energy production, according to the leading proponents of this science, will become commercially available in 30 years from now(2040) some even think sooner. In fact as of today, we already have fusion reactors that can produce modest amounts of energy.

So, are we going to continue to use fusion energy for a million years? Is this the ultimate and final science of energy generation. No.

As of today the greatest energy density reactions known to us are anti-matter-matter collisions which convert matter to 100% energy - around 9 x 1016 J/kg. We already manufacture anti-matter at CERN, nanograms to be precise. The infrastructure in place at this point in time to manufacture anti-matter is extremely expensive, making one gram of anti-matter cost around $65 trillion per gram. Irrespective however, the energy produced by micrograms of anti-matter is sufficient to meet our future energy needs and power an interstellar craft. According to scientists at CERN, commercial anti-matter energy production could be available near the end of the century. However I am going to be far more pessimistic, and say, it will take 1000 years.

Now, are we going to continue to use anti-matter energy for a 999,000 years. Now is this the ultimate and final science of energy generation. Most probably not.

We can exploit the energy of a chemical reaction. We can the exploit energy of an atom. We can exploit the energy of anti-matter. Yet, there is even a greater binding energy, that binds space-time and void. We know this energy exists, because: 1. the universe is a reality; 2. the uncertainly particle and a vacuum; 3. the Casimir effect.

Take note, how energy density increases in many orders of magnitude as we delve deeper into matter - molecules - atoms - subatomic particles- quarks - vacuum field energy(who knows if it may even extends beyond this)

The energy contained within one cubic metre is estimated to be in the magnitude 10^36 to 10^70 Joules/m3. With access to such levels of energy we could warp space-time, have advanced control of gravity, and travel many times faster than the speed of light.

We already have realized ZPE theoretically. Now, considering the atom, took only 2000 years from becoming a theoretical concept to being exploited physically to unleash its energy and our currentge of scientific growth that's takes us from horse-driven carriages to hypersonic spacecraft in a century, we could be exploiting ZPE energy in less than 1000 years and exploiting its maximum output(10^70) in say 10,000 years, but I am going to be extremely pessimistic - 500,000 years; leaving us with 489,000 years.

Is this the ultimate form of energy generation? Probably not, there is yet another source of energy, the very fabric of existence and non existence and the energy it unleashes could be enough to annihilate universes. It would be like tapping into the power of God(if he existed)
- Nonetheless, let's not's get into that.

In other words in 1 million years from today, we would have an economy and productivity quadrillions and quadrillions of times greater than today. Allowing us to warp space/time, construct wormhole(energy in the order of planks constant) have advanced control of gravity, and travel at speeds many times that of the speed of light.

2: Grand United Theory:

Am I not surprised, that his idea of million years into the future scientific theories, would be a theory we are working on today?

3: Good educational and healthcare system for all, eradication of poverty.

That sounds almost like the promises of a politician to a developing country. Most advanced countries boast of a literacy rate of 95%+ and developing countries literacy rate are also rising rapidly. In addition bourgeoning economies are creating more jobs and rasing the standards for living in many of the major developing countries; India and China. In fact good education, healthcare and the eradication of poverty is far more closer than you think; perhaps just a few hundreds years, but let's be pessimistic again, 1000 years, yet what he envisages for a million years, would have become a reality 1000 times earlier.

And does he really think there would be an educational system as such in 1 million years. At this stage man would be augmented with a lot artificial technology and learning information could be as simple as downloading it instantly into a neural chip. Rather than going school for 20 years.

In fact, forget 1 million years, this technology is already becoming available today. Healthcare also can be self-automated with nano-chips designed to combat viral infections etc. In fact in 1 million years there would be no need for a healthcare or educational systems.

some subjects that I would hazard a guess on though: I think that AI machines will soon (much, much sooner than 1 Ma) challenge humans as the most powerful minds on the planet. I also think that they will be the pilots of most (all?) interstellar missions in the future.
I don't think that gravity will be harnessed as a source of propulsion, nor that the vacuum energy will ever be exploited (history prove me wrong... please!). I think that space travel will be forever limited to rocketry of varying sorts and to solar sailing (wind or light). Therefore, I think that interstellar missions will always be very difficult.
Interstellar exploration I see being conducted by Von Neumann probes.

These speculations are sure to be naive and misguided, so I wouldn't dare to address the other points, about which I am even more ignorant

You have a far more open-minded view of the future. I agree with you, AI may indeed become the dominant species in the not too distant future and may pilot some of the interstellar missions.

Do you realize that with Von Neuman probes or AI and speeds close to the speed of light, exploration of other constellations would be possible. In fact, a Neuman probe could land, and manufacture programmed human clones of us, thus we indirectly make contact with extraterrestrial civilizations.

Now what about manned interstellar flight? At speeds of 10% c it would take us 40 years to reach Alpha Centauri and 10,000 years to explore up to 1000 light years. This would be possible with a multi-generation ship, or in which humans are placed in cryo-sleep and the ship is piloted by AI. It could be a ship specifically designed for space exploration, or a world ship, much like a planet.

Thus using the best anti-matter rocket technology - we could explore 10,000 light years in 100,000 years. In 1 million years, we could explore our entire galaxy.


don't think that gravity will be harnessed as a source of propulsion, nor that the vacuum energy will ever be exploited (history prove me wrong... please!).

Why do you need history to prove you wrong, when the present can.

http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2002/07/29/story61826.asp
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28473
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/TECH/09/05/wow.tech.black.world

(also proof of US black projects and how it's been experimenting with anti gravity technologies from 80's and prior; giving credence to the Disclosure project and the proof of reverse engineering, Corso and Lazar's witness testimony)
http://www.padrak.com/ine/TTB_EGP.html

Space ships capable of accelerating in a few seconds to speeds many thousand of miles an hour and making sudden changes of course at these speeds without subjecting their passengers to the so-called 'G-forces' caused by gravity's pull also are envisioned. These concepts are part of a new program to solve the secret of gravity and universal gravitation already in progress in many top scientific laboratories and long-established industrial firms of the nation.
Does that sound familiar, my friend ;)

http://www.angelfire.com/on/GEAR2000/2depalma.html

In fact the implications of generating your own gravitational field and controlling gravity, as well as building a gravitational drive, which induces an accelerating gravitational field around the spaceship, so no matter how fast you accelerate in speed, you will not feel the effects of G or relativity and hence you could travel many times faster than speed of light with barely no fuel.

It is no coincidence that ETI's UFO's are using anti-gravitational technologies, as this technology is also key for faster than light travel.

Hence a civilization that is 1 million years advanced in technology(does not necessarily mean calender years) would be capable of interstellar travel.

Now add up for me:

1: ETI life is mathematically certain
2: Interstellar travel is scientifically possible

Does it make sense to you now that we really are and have been visited by ETI?
 
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Does it make sense to you now that we really are and have been visited by ETI?

Not in the least.

And although your response was predictable, it definitely shows how little you know and understand physics and how gullible you are in accepting pseudoscience.

At least the responses from phlogistician and faulty were based on science.
 
Crazymikey - small question about your previous evidence:

Are the old painters who painted UFOs in proximity to Jesus & Mary the same painters that painted Jesus and Mary as Caucasian? If so... why should they be trusted on the UFO topic when they didn't know that Jesus wasn't a white guy?

As for technological development over 1,000,000 years...

Computerized learning/Neural chips - Try reading <a href="http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312861028/qid=1081889213/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_0_1/701-9833830-9421903">Psychohistorical Crisis</a> for a brief overview of this subject and its implications. This sort of technology might be realized within a few hundred years, rather than a million.

The human form - It is unreasonable to believe that we will be even remotely recognizable after such a long period of time; likely it will be a pretty short time (<100 years) before complex cosmetic surgery allows us to have crude extensions such as extra limbs and organs. In a longer time frame, perhaps of a thousand years, nanosurgery could allow us to take any form we wished, within the sorts of physical constraints that all living things have. Present human socialization would change drastically in a world where physiology and the context of communication and understanding was no longer a given. Also, with the advent of heavy genetic/physical modification, reproductive compatibility will have an entirely different meaning.

AI - given that the human form and the concept of species identification may be meaningless within the next few centuries, the arrival of complex AI may not have nearly as much of an effect as it would today. The greatest problem with complex AI is that it will not do the job it was designed to do - dull, repetitive, pedantic menial tasks, like endlessly matching pictures and waveforms.

Interstellar travel/planetary exploration - current society would not support a generation ship; the American public has a hard time remembering anything that happened more than a few years ago, and would certainly fail to see the significance of an investment that would not pay off for centuries if it succeeded. If FTL travel is invented, its arrival can't be predicted within any specific time frame, since discoveries in theoretical physics often come as surprises. It is not totally beyond the pale that 1) the Space/Time continuum convention of physics is just wrong, and that wormholes are a delusional misinterpretation of the natural world, or 2) the lightspeed limit will never be broken, either because it is truly impossible or because we all die before pulling it off.

Economics - with proper planning, we could have an entire world within 100 years that is supported by automated labour, where no human being has to do anything more strenuous than fill out a few forms and lift food to their mouth. During the adjustment period, malaise may spell the death of millions... I have seen people who starved to passing out playing Resident Evil for three days straight, and RE1 wasn't even a very good game. In a post-labour society, where electronic entertainment can reasonably simulate the complexity of reality, "addictive personalities" may die of self-neglect in droves.

Predicting even 100 years in advance is difficult at best, because technology changes society and vice versa - a destabilizing system. Trying to predict 1,000,000 years in advance is just silly.
 
I agree that the difficulties of interstellar travel are not show stoppers (projects Daedalus and Orion seem to offer quite practical solutions, for example), but I am not as optimistic as you are, Crazymikey, about the potential of such speculative technologies as gravity control and zero point energy.

Although I admit to an unfamiliarity with the subject, my impression of work by Eugene Podkletnov was that his results were unrepeatable by other researchers. I've read Nick Cook's "Hunt for zero point", and it was fascinating, but I have great difficulty believing that there is a hidden cabal within the U.S.A. who are able to manipulate gravity and inertia.
My views on zero point energy are more fundamental: Energy is of practical use when it flows down an energy gradient. A heat engine, for example, is most efficient when the temperature gradient is large, and is useless when no gradient exists. The vacuum energy supposedly pervades the universe, hence there is no energy gradient.

I would love to be wrong, but secondhand accounts of clandestine tests and secret research organisations are not enough for me. I want press conferences and publc flights. Until Lockheed (or Airbus!) themselves announce that their latest creation accelerates at 50 gs and runs on an infinite supply of free energy, I won't be able to consider myself proved wrong.
 
BigBlueHead said:
Crazymikey - small question about your previous evidence:

Are the old painters who painted UFOs in proximity to Jesus & Mary the same painters that painted Jesus and Mary as Caucasian? If so... why should they be trusted on the UFO topic when they didn't know that Jesus wasn't a white guy?

They are different painters. Jesus is generally thought of as a white guy? Hmm

As for technological development over 1,000,000 years...

Computerized learning/Neural chips - Try reading <a href="http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312861028/qid=1081889213/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_0_1/701-9833830-9421903">Psychohistorical Crisis</a> for a brief overview of this subject and its implications. This sort of technology might be realized within a few hundred years, rather than a million.

Yes, absolutely. If you read again, I said that. Not even in a few hundred years, we already have prototypal technology like this, so it might even become a reality within the century.

The human form - It is unreasonable to believe that we will be even remotely recognizable after such a long period of time; likely it will be a pretty short time (<100 years) before complex cosmetic surgery allows us to have crude extensions such as extra limbs and organs. In a longer time frame, perhaps of a thousand years, nanosurgery could allow us to take any form we wished, within the sorts of physical constraints that all living things have. Present human socialization would change drastically in a world where physiology and the context of communication and understanding was no longer a given. Also, with the advent of heavy genetic/physical modification, reproductive compatibility will have an entirely different meaning.

I absolutely agree. I imagine the human form to be greatly enhanced, and augmented with artificial technology, limbs, neural chips etc, as well as geneitically engineered.

AI - given that the human form and the concept of species identification may be meaningless within the next few centuries, the arrival of complex AI may not have nearly as much of an effect as it would today. The greatest problem with complex AI is that it will not do the job it was designed to do - dull, repetitive, pedantic menial tasks, like endlessly matching pictures and waveforms.

I would imagine in 1 million years or prior, we may have devised an extremely intelligent artificial species that thinks independently.

Interstellar travel/planetary exploration - current society would not support a generation ship; the American public has a hard time remembering anything that happened more than a few years ago, and would certainly fail to see the significance of an investment that would not pay off for centuries if it succeeded. If FTL travel is invented, its arrival can't be predicted within any specific time frame, since discoveries in theoretical physics often come as surprises. It is not totally beyond the pale that 1) the Space/Time continuum convention of physics is just wrong, and that wormholes are a delusional misinterpretation of the natural world, or 2) the lightspeed limit will never be broken, either because it is truly impossible or because we all die before pulling it off.

FTL is possible by advanced gravity control. Relativity says matter cannot travel faster than the speed of light, it says nothing about spacetime, which we know can travel much faster than the speed of light. If you cushion a mass in a non-linear gravitational field that is accelerated past the speed of time, in your frame of reference, it would not feel like you are moving, nor would you feel the acceleration or the effects of relativity. Much like we do not feel the Earth velocity as it travels through space. This is why UFO can instantly accelerate to beyond supersonic speeds.

FTL is also possible by warping spacetime, for which you need energy generation in the form of planks constant, which would be available to a civilization 1 million years in advance - this view is endorsed by theoretical physicist, Dr Mkaku.

Economics - with proper planning, we could have an entire world within 100 years that is supported by automated labour, where no human being has to do anything more strenuous than fill out a few forms and lift food to their mouth. During the adjustment period, malaise may spell the death of millions... I have seen people who starved to passing out playing Resident Evil for three days straight, and RE1 wasn't even a very good game. In a post-labour society, where electronic entertainment can reasonably simulate the complexity of reality, "addictive personalities" may die of self-neglect in droves.

Yes, within 100 years, it is not too far-fetched, that such would be the state of society. Probably not completely eliminating human labour, but definitely minimizing it.

Predicting even 100 years in advance is difficult at best, because technology changes society and vice versa - a destabilizing system. Trying to predict 1,000,000 years in advance is just silly.

The reason it is a million years, and not 1000 years, is so that it gives you all the room for your imagination to run wild and speculate on the state of future sciences and gauage how much can you extend yourself. It will also give you an idea of ETI that maybe 1 million+ years(not necessarily calender years) in advance of us, and what capabilities they could have.

In turns out a future civilization could most definitely be capable of interstellar travel and technologies beyond those of today.
 
Faulty said:
I agree that the difficulties of interstellar travel are not show stoppers (projects Daedalus and Orion seem to offer quite practical solutions, for example), but I am not as optimistic as you are, Crazymikey, about the potential of such speculative technologies as gravity control and zero point energy

They are most certainly not speculative technologies, they are well within the grasps of science, nor do they violate any known laws of physics, and further more, they are real technologies being demonstrated today. Now don't ask me, how our scientists managed to leap 100,000 years, you know what I'm going to say:

Although I admit to an unfamiliarity with the subject, my impression of work by Eugene Podkletnov was that his results were unrepeatable by other researchers.

Not all researchers can repeat others experiments succesfully, especially when there is a consipiracy to withhold the information. In fact Podkletnov was shunned by the scientific community, even his own collegue distances himself from him. Now the same scientific community are watching with abated breathes as Boeing, BAE and many multinational firms from as far as Japan are working with him.

http://www.enterprisemission.com/anti-grav.htm

Nasa is also "working" on anti-gravity technology - in fact, it's Podkletnov's experiment, and they are trying to take credit for it!

My views on zero point energy are more fundamental: Energy is of practical use when it flows down an energy gradient. A heat engine, for example, is most efficient when the temperature gradient is large, and is useless when no gradient exists. The vacuum energy supposedly pervades the universe, hence there is no energy gradient.

What do you think causes electricity, magnatism and gravity? They are caused from the fluctuation in the quantum vacuum. You see you are not aware of how much energy there is in this vacuum, because your point of zero is far higher than the energy beneath it. It's like standing on a hill, and not knowing how high up you are, until you look down.

I would love to be wrong, but secondhand accounts of clandestine tests and secret research organisations are not enough for me. I want press conferences and publc flights. Until Lockheed (or Airbus!) themselves announce that their latest creation accelerates at 50 gs and runs on an infinite supply of free energy, I won't be able to consider myself proved wrong.

:D Basically, you're waiting for the craft to come out, and if it does, next you will want is ETI to come out - otherwise you're not wrong - catch 22 situation :D
 
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