Prayer Works -- a praise report for my Christian Brethren

[scorpius]

My sister was just on a mission trip to South Africa where they were praying for people in the slums and one guy they met and prayed for was 100% blind and after they prayed for him he could see again.

makes you wonder why did God caused his blindess in the first place,
doesnt it?

This too will be discounted by atheists because they don't have 1st hand knowledge or weren't there to see it happen,

lets be honest here,YOU havent seen it happen either so you dont have the 1st hand experience too.
(hearsay is not an evidence!)
it wouldnt be the first time someone pretending to be sick,or blind was "healed" by some charlatan/preacher

anyway IF your Faith is so strong,and believe that prayer works,next time you get sick or have a toothache,
why dont you go to the church and pray to God to heal you,instead of going to the doctor,and see how far it will get you.

 

[cole grey]

Is not the ability of someone to speak to an invisible, omniscent and omnipotent being and have that being act upon a request extraordinary?

I didn't say that. YOU assumed that my argument had this additional point to make, which it does not.
MY POINT IS - praying, which requires acknowledging a problem, will have some effect, if it is done on a more than cursory way. That is all.
Again, Woody finished my argument on that particular stance, just by showing that prayer had an effect (as I predicted).
Nothing extraordinary about that really. Or maybe there is...

http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/wirthstudy.html

This is a dismissal of a study that showed prayer's effectiveness. That is not what I asked for.
I do like the way the idea that illness may be psychosomatic, therefore prayer is only aiding the mind, is put forth in the dismissal, although in the study the patients weren't informed they were being prayed for.

Name three. Nay... name one but with a proper citation.

Again, this isn't what my argument is about, but -

A Randomized, Controlled Trial of the Effects of
Remote, Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients
Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit
William S. Harris, PhD; et. al.
In this study as well as others, intercessory prayer
(praying for others) was found to have measurable and
statistically significant benefits in patient outcome.
Prayer was conducted remotely and performed by a team
of outside intercessors who were given only the first
names of the patients. These people prayed for the
cardiac patients every day for four weeks. Patients were
not aware if they were in the prayed-for group or not.
Results showed that the prayed-for group faired
significantly better which suggests that prayer may be an
effect adjunct to standard medical care.

From the Archives of Internal Medicine
Vol. 159:2273-2278 No. 19, October 25, 1999
Original Investigation

 

[(Q)]

follow the link posted above for many examples of evidence.

Ok, lets look at the very first link YOU provided:

For most of my young and adolescent life, I was a faith healer in a Pentecostal tradition. I witnessed what I then thought were resurrections, spontaneous growth of short limbs, cures from cancer, and many other types of diseases. In retrospect, I have learned much about why people believe in answered prayers even when there is evidence to the contrary or even when it is logically absurd. Every single case of a supposedly answered prayer that I witnessed can be explained by one or more of the following factors: (1) false assumptions, (2) erroneous information, and (3) wishful thinking. http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/avalos_17_3.html

People praying about it requires them to think about it.

Are you brain-dead? Can you not think without prayer?

Ignore-ance is the biggest problem.

Yes, it is.

 

[(Q)]

Woody now sez:

There were other employers that turned me down

Why weren't your prayers answered then? Did you not pray for those jobs?

 

[Raithere]

I'm not 100% convinced, due to similar reservations as those expressed in Gendanken's post on africa, and other points stated here about "competitive" prayer, however there is ample evidence that prayer does something. This doesn't prove anything specific about God, Christianity, or any particular religion, but it is not valid to state that there is no evidence at all. Say it is inconclusive, if you wish.

Byrd's research has been largely shredded and there are no other relevant studies. Here's an article but if I recall there's plenty in PubMed as well:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gary_posner/godccu.html

Point to topic, God's omnipotence, if it exists at all is not enough to overcome the margin of error in the study. Nor does it matter how or to which God you pray. Not particularly impressive, is it?

Additionally, from the article:

Three previous scientific/medical studies on the efficacy of prayer were briefly reviewed in Byrd's paper. We are informed that Galton's 1872 article, one of the first on record, on "the effects of prayer in the clergy, found no salutory effects." (4) In Joyce and Welldon's 1965 study of rheumatics, the prayer group fared better in the first half, "but in the second half the control group did better" (emphasis added). (5) And in 1969, Collipp's findings regarding prayer and leukemia "did not reach significance." (6)

If all the people in the world who attest to being "religious" were to pray for the african aids crisis every day, there would be a positive effect. This is a completely rational hypothesis, which proves nothing about religion, but does say something about compassion.

Compassion and positive thought, in contrast, do have statistically significant results. In which case it is not God that helps the people who are being prayed for, it's the people praying and the outlook of the individual that make the difference.

Good lesson in there somewhere

~Raithere

 

[Raithere]

God knows what we need before we ask for it. The point of human prayer is communication; communion with God. The statistical evidence is there; the point being some were answered "Yes", some "No" and some "Not Yet".

Or, in other words, there is no point to prayer because God is going to do whatever he wants anyway and no amount of special pleading will change his mind. I've no problem with your assertion; that prayer is about communion with God and not supplication but that was not the point of this thread. Woody specifically states that he received his job because of prayer.

Really? Have any statistical evidence for this?

Not on the job part, no. But there are a number of studies on the health issue. See the article I referenced above.

~Raithere

 

[SkinWalker]

MY POINT IS - praying, which requires acknowledging a problem, will have some effect, if it is done on a more than cursory way. That is all.

Fair enough. I'll even agree with that. It isn't near enough to make a real difference, however.

A Randomized, Controlled Trial of the Effects of
Remote, Intercessory Prayer on Outcomes in Patients
Admitted to the Coronary Care Unit
William S. Harris, PhD; et. al.
In this study as well as others, intercessory prayer
(praying for others) was found to have measurable and
statistically significant benefits in patient outcome.
Prayer was conducted remotely and performed by a team
of outside intercessors who were given only the first
names of the patients. These people prayed for the
cardiac patients every day for four weeks. Patients were
not aware if they were in the prayed-for group or not.
Results showed that the prayed-for group faired
significantly better which suggests that prayer may be an
effect adjunct to standard medical care.

From the Archives of Internal Medicine
Vol. 159:2273-2278 No. 19, October 25, 1999
Original Investigation

In that paper, Harris et al state that there was six significantly favorable outcomes with the test group (the group prayed for) over the control group (the group not prayed for). The researchers concluded that the test group did a "little bit better" than the control group in each category.

Moreover, this study and others have a consistent problem: they aren't controlled sufficiently with regard to blinding. There are people handling data that know who's who with regard to the test/control groups, etc.

If that wasn't what your argument was about, disregard my reply. But its still good to put this kind of information out when there are others who are being misled into believing that there is scientific evidence that supports prayer as effective beyond the 'placebo effect.'

 

[Raithere]

I have never heard of a large-scale study being done to give evidence against prayer's effectiveness

Ask and ye shall receive

~Raithere

(emphasis mine in all cases)

Pilot study investigating the effect of intercessory prayer in the treatment of child psychiatric disorders.

Mathai J, Bourne A.

Royal Children's Hospital Mental Health Service, Parkville, Vic., Australia.

CONCLUSION: This study was unable to show any additional benefits for patients who received intercessory prayer compared to those who received treatment as usual.

A randomized trial of the effects of remote intercessory prayer: interactions with personal beliefs on problem-specific outcomes and functional status.

Palmer RF, Katerndahl D, Morgan-Kidd J.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio, San Antonio, TX 78229-3900, USA. Palmerr@uthscsa.edu

RESULTS: No direct intervention effect on the primary outcomes was found. A marginally significant reduction in the amount of pain was observed in the intervention group compared to controls. The amount of concern for baseline problems at follow-up was significantly lower in the intervention group when stratified by subject's baseline degree of belief that their problem could be resolved. Prayer intervention appeared to effectively reduce the subject's level of concern only if the subject initially believed that the problem could be resolved. Those in the intervention group who did not believe in a possible resolution to their problem did not differ from controls. Better physical functioning was observed in the intervention group among those with a higher belief in prayer and surprisingly, better mental health scores were observed in the control group with lower belief in prayer scores.

Intercessory prayer and cardiovascular disease progression in a coronary care unit population: a randomized controlled trial.

Aviles JM, Whelan SE, Hernke DA, Williams BA, Kenny KE, O'Fallon WM, Kopecky SL.

Mayo Physician Alliance for Clinical Trials Coordinating Center, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn. 55902, USA.

CONCLUSIONS: As delivered in this study, intercessory prayer had no significant effect on medical outcomes after hospitalization in a coronary care unit.

The effects of intercessory prayer, positive visualization, and expectancy on the well-being of kidney dialysis patients.

Matthews WJ, Conti JM, Sireci SG.

School Psychology Program, School of Education, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, MA 01003, USA.

CONCLUSIONS: The effects of intercessory prayer and transpersonal positive visualization cannot be distinguished from the effect of expectancy. Therefore, those 2 interventions do not appear to be effective treatments.

 

[cole grey]

CG- People praying about it requires them to think about it.

Q- Are you brain-dead? Can you not think without prayer?

Where in that sentence of mine you quoted does it state that it isn't possible to think about something without praying about it?
Oh... it doesn't.
You know why?
Because I am not mentally fatigued (euphemism) enough to even think that, although you seem to be.
Don't come up with "brain-dead" ideas and then pin them on me.
That statement was regarding a basic truth about positive thought/compassion ( prayer encompasses both, but doesn't have the complete market on either). It helps people.
A person can dispute why, but I think we have seen enough evidence to realize that this is true. I don't care if Skinwalker and raithere say, "it is only psychological". It isn't about God needing to be proven, it is about positive effects.
I responded to someone saying there is no evidence for prayer having an effect, when there is plenty of evidence. Now, if someone (skinwalker and raithere for example) wanted to say there is no proof of the METAPHYSICAL effect of prayer, that is another debate which is not so easily decided (for me).

I personally lean much more toward the idea that prayer is useful for aligning oneself with God, than the idea that it is useful for aligning God with your desires.

As far as Woody goes, he would see not getting the job as his answer to prayer, if it had some positive effect somewhere down the line. Maybe he would have been forced to relocate and then ended up in a church with some really great people, and he would praise God for answering, "no Job for you". So what? Would he be wrong? Not necessarily.
I think that attitude is great. Being thankful is a hell of a lot more positive than being pissed off. It isn't my job to decide for him whether it is because God is taking care of him or not.

 

[stretched]

Talkin` about fruit … it seems not all fruit is equal.

2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

(Genesis Fables 2 & 3)


Quote Woody:
"Woody says: none."

* Are you 100% honest before god in that statement?

 

[Godless]

Well first of all. Congrats Woody for getting the job, though god had nothing to do with it.

Two boxers have a match, they both pray, one gets killed in the match. Who's to blame?. The clear Winner thangs and praises god for his victory, while the other is on his way to the hospital and dies. Would the victorious boxer feel guilty if god granted his wish at the cost of another's life? No he simply states to himself "It was god's will". Not his fault that the blow he threw to the other's head gave the man concusion and busted his eardrum, were he died of hemorage.

Ah the power of prayer, makes it all alright. One man's wish is another's missery.

Godless

 

[water]

The whole AIDS crisis happened because people think they are entitled to have consequence-free sex. That they have the right that nothing happens to them if they have sex.

This right is completely unfounded.

 

[Woody]

scorpius says: why did God caused his blindess

Woody says again: Oh, give me a break -- we all get old and die some day.

 

[Woody]

Q says: Why weren't your prayers answered then? Did you not pray for those jobs?

Woody says: Yep, but I already explained -- those jobs were losers. My job is a winner.

 

[Woody]

Cole says: Where in that sentence of mine you quoted does it state that it isn't possible to think about something without praying about it?

Woody says: God answers prayer that you don't even think about.

Jesus sez:

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Catholics, Bhuddists and all other heathen can throw away those prayer beads! Mat 6:7-8

 

[Woody]

Godless says: Ah the power of prayer, makes it all alright. One man's wish is another's missery.

Woody says: Ah the power of sour grapes for you! Tee Hee

 

[SnakeLord]

The whole AIDS crisis happened because people think they are entitled to have consequence-free sex. That they have the right that nothing happens to them if they have sex.

This right is completely unfounded.

What a load of old cobblers.

 

[stretched]

Quote w:
"The whole AIDS crisis happened because people think they are entitled to have consequence-free sex. That they have the right that nothing happens to them if they have sex.
This right is completely unfounded."

* Where did you find this little moral tidbit o rightous one? Quite simply, it appears this cunning little virus managed to jump or migrate from chimps to humans. Did god smite the little monkeys with the virus because them chimps were shagging to much? Consensual sex is natural. Deal with it.

 

[water]

Consensual sex is natural. Deal with it.

And you deal with AIDS.


P.S.

Also deal with unwanted pregnancies, chlamydia, herpes, gonorrhea, etc.

 

[mouse]

And you deal with AIDS.

We are getting off-topic here, but you do realize that people get AIDS from blood transfusions too, don't you? Moreover, new borns may get the decease from their mothers.

Thus not all people who have AIDS took the risk of having unprotected sex.