Prayer Works -- a praise report for my Christian Brethren

[Woody]

Gendanken says: It would be a threat to the simple act of knowing anything.

Woody says: You count out the power of infinite knowledge that we don't have, and a benevolent mentor that takes my requests and seeks out the best solutions. The job was there for the taking for anyone, but the Lord saw to it that I got it.

I didn't even know this job was available at the company. I responded to a job ad for which I was less qualified, and the job payed less. I thought I would just give it a try, and I was matched to a better job.

I sent out a lot of resumes to different companies over ther weeks, but one morning, I showed up at my old job, and I knew somebody read my resume that was really interested in me. I just had that feeling -- I call it supernatural perception -- I could feel it. Anyway, within a few hours I was getting the call. Yippee!

 

[stretched]

Quote w:
“I am saying life on earth goes by the rules of cause and effect.
If you do X, consequences C are possible.”

* Uhuh.

Quote w:
“But we cannot demand that an activity has the consequences *we* desire. We do not have so much power.”

* Trail and error.

Quote w:
“If sex were a right, and if it were our right to determine the consequences, then who is to sanction them? Can you sue someone if the consequences of sex are not those you desired? Of course not.”

* You can sue for maintenance.

Quote w:
“Sex is merely a privilege, not a right. And once something is a privilege, the responsibility for the consequences is upon the privilege-holder.”

* With tears in my big blue eyes water, you get born, au naturale, with a full set of functional genitals, complete with working happy button, and using them is a “privilege”? What? Have you become a slave?

 

[stretched]

Quote gedanken:
"Here’s a toast to anyone that’s read this long post. (highly doubt)(Excellent)"

* All hail gedanken ... all hail gedanken ... a voice of reason in the abyss.

 

[water]

Stretched,


When you get pregnant, let me know.
At the tenth abortion, let me know how happy you are in your sexual life.

 

[(Q)]

I call it supernatural perception -- I could feel it

Giving credit where credit isn't due is one thing, but claiming to percieve the supernatural is delusional.

You actually were making a good argument, Woody, as can be seen by the many responses in this thread. But now you've lost it, completely.

 

[Quigly]

What about all them other parents who prayed for their kids with a terminal desease and watch them die? I quess god just prefers you over others?. So again one man's prayer is the missery of others.

He acts and wills according to his own wisdom. He is Just. Humans don't understand what is Just, but God does.

And talk about been selfish! You seem to only pray for your benefit, and god comes to you like a good doggie. While other people around the globe pray as well, and are starving, dying, getting raped, murdered and killed in wars, what about them? Pray for them if god listens to you like a good well mastered DOG!

Godless

You speculated on matters of which you have no clue. You don't know who or what things I pray for. I responded to the last question with my response, yet that is not the totality of things I pray for. People taking their time out to pray for those people that are starving, dying, ect.ect.. are doing a lot more than you are sitting back debating about it. Do you know anyone in the military? Have you ever fed a starving person? Counceled a rape victim? Ever prayed for any of them? If not, how do you know if prayer makes a difference?

 

[Quigly]

I call it supernatural perception -- I could feel it

Giving credit where credit isn't due is one thing, but claiming to percieve the supernatural is delusional.

You actually were making a good argument, Woody, as can be seen by the many responses in this thread. But now you've lost it, completely.

Just in quick response. You ever had one of those days where you just felt like something good was going to happen? Call it sixth sense, call it supernatural perception. Saying he could feel like something good was going to happen shouldn't discredit his argument.

 

[wesmorris]

I'll never relate to the prayer thing. Hope I can do, but prayer is retarded (IMO).

Why?

Because the one good thing that happens, like them find that kid in Utah or wherever, then prayers were answered. When bad stuff happens, as was mentioned earlier, god works in mysterious ways.

It just seems silly.

I can however appreciate the notion of hope, which is really I think what prayer is... but IMO, unneccessarily godulated to satisfy the presumption of the god folks.

 

[(Q)]

You ever had one of those days where you just felt like something good was going to happen?

No. My mind and my body, just like yours, works as a result of bio-chemical and electromagnetic interactions. I could incorrectly interpret those reactions to the order of future events, but that would be complete nonsense.

We only have to look at the scenario of someone who also interprets these reactions to favorable future events, as he gets hit by a bus.

Saying he could feel like something good was going to happen shouldn't discredit his argument.

The problem is that he interpreted those feelings after the fact.

 

[Quigly]

You ever had one of those days where you just felt like something good was going to happen?

No. My mind and my body, just like yours, works as a result of bio-chemical and electromagnetic interactions. I could incorrectly interpret those reactions to the order of future events, but that would be complete nonsense.

Usually, when I feel like I am going to have a great day or that something good was going to happen, it generally does. You may argue that one would "make it happen" because of the optimistic outlook that day. Another may argue that it was a 6th sense. Still another may argue as you have.

We only have to look at the scenario of someone who also interprets these reactions to favorable future events, as he gets hit by a bus.

Saying he could feel like something good was going to happen shouldn't discredit his argument.

The problem is that he interpreted those feelings after the fact

You argue probability and the law of large numbers, but this doesn't apply to this situation at all. He said that he woke up and had a supernatural insight that something good was going to occur, in this case, his prayers being answered. He wasn't hit by a bus or other unfortunate incident, but indeed something good came about. As stated, he didn't interpret the feelings after the fact. He interpreted them the morning he woke up and felt as if something good was going to happen. That is the interpretation and after the fact is called the conclusion which indeed favors him.

Law of large numbers or probability doesn't apply because this isn't a case study of a thousand people in his same situation. This is a study of one. Easily discredited as unscientific, but to that individual, it has nothing to do with science, it's experience. He wanted to share his positive experience that what he prayed for came to be. His second argument was that he woke up and felt that something good was going to happen, promoting the idea of supernatural tendency and after the fact, he shared with us that this indeed happened that day. Can you argue with the experience this guy had?

You can argue the means, but not the conclusion. So at least be happy for him that life has turned around for him and continue arguing the means.

 

[Godless]

I just had that feeling -- I call it supernatural perception -- I could feel it.

Heyyyy!! I get that feeling sometimes. When I call a hard six, in a craps table and it hits in the very next throw, and have seen others hit The box cars. 12 pays 30 to 1 a one time bet, if it don't hit you loose. I've seen several men throw and call it, with $5-10 bucks what luck to hit that number. They say they just had a feeling.

Of course I've thrown in my money many times with that same feeling and lost, same as others who throw a tantrum like a kid when they loose

So becarefull with that "supernatural perception" it may just wind you up for a bit, before the BIG FALL!!

Godless

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Woody says: You count out the power of infinite knowledge that we don't have, and a benevolent mentor that takes my requests and seeks out the best solutions. The job was there for the taking for anyone, but the Lord saw to it that I got it.
*************
M*W: No, you're not only wrong but you're ignorantly wrong. There is no "Lord" who "saw to it that" you "got it." All it was was synchronicity in the universe where two or more points converge at the same time and place, or you can call it a coincidence.
*************
Woody: I didn't even know this job was available at the company. I responded to a job ad for which I was less qualified, and the job payed less. I thought I would just give it a try, and I was matched to a better job.
*************
M*W: That's what I call "lucky." You were just lucky, that's all.
*************
Woody: I sent out a lot of resumes to different companies over ther weeks, but one morning, I showed up at my old job, and I knew somebody read my resume that was really interested in me. I just had that feeling -- I call it supernatural perception -- I could feel it. Anyway, within a few hours I was getting the call. Yippee!
*************
M*W: Woody, you were just lucky, that's all. The exhiliration you have over getting the very job you wanted has happened due to your 'wishful thinking.' There's nothing wrong with that! But give yourself credit. YOU made it happen. You wanted the job and you had the power to make it come true. Take responsibility for bettering your life, and I guarantee you will be successful in your new job. Giving credit to some unseen force that doesn't even exist is like telling yourself that you are not in control over your own life. With this mindset, you won't be successful because you believe you don't really have the power to make it come true. The power of your own mind made this come true for you. I'm not saying that your church friends had any real power over your life to create this job for you. What I am saying is that you believed with their help (their positive thoughts) you would get the job, and you did becaused YOU BELIEVED you would! The only place you have to look for god or any higher power is withing yourself. That's where all good and bad things begin and where all good and bad things end.

 

[(Q)]

He said that he woke up and had a supernatural insight that something good was going to occur, in this case, his prayers being answered.

I don't buy that. Woody has a tendency to say anything to make his point, true or not.

He wasn't hit by a bus or other unfortunate incident, but indeed something good came about.

Ever hear of coincidence?

Can you argue with the experience this guy had?

Woody has absolutely no evidence to suggest his experience was anything other than what he conjured from his imagination. It is reduced to a testimonial, which is not evidence.

You can argue the means, but not the conclusion. So at least be happy for him that life has turned around for him and continue arguing the means.

I did exactly that in my first post, I congratulated him for getting the job.

The assertion of divine intervention is highly questionable. Woody is stating that his god somehow forced the employer to choose him as the best candidate based on his prayers. One must clearly suspend their disbelief for such a claim. Anyone with a minushka of rationality MUST ask why that prayer was answered while so many more prayers go unanswered in regards to famine, war, disease, pestulence, etc.

You may defend that position any way you can, but it all boils down to a very ruthless and cruel god, one certainly not deserving of worship.

 

[MarcAC]

I can however appreciate the notion of hope, which is really I think what prayer is... but IMO, unneccessarily godulated to satisfy the presumption of the god folks.

Hope in (through) faith.

All scripture from NIV

Mark 14:36

"Abba[Aramaic for Father], Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."​

Prayer helps you to grow in the Knowlege (through faith) of God.

I usually find it hard to begin (in words) a prayer (cause really God knows anyway - what is a prayer? A few words uttered or a true desire?) but when I start I can say I do feel the presence of the I Am which is greater than I - some whom I see praying publicly appear to feel it more than me might I add. It strengthens my faith.

I'm sure eeevery Christian can give some prayer testimony and state how they see God working in their lives (be His answer yes, later, not in this life or never) - one thing they will (or should) see are the benefits such that they will be happy and satisfied with whichever direction their lives go through faith in God.

Yeah, it appears to occur with (maybe via?) the Placebo effect and whatever but we're all from dust and shall return to it. This is the physical universe after all, we're all of the same basic make-up and are a part of it; we all eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil such that Jesus Saves us all; the Sun shines on everyone in it's wake; Gravity pulls everyone; God works for everyone.

Exodus 7

[10] So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the LORD commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. [11] Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: [12] Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs.​

Take it literally, symbolically or nonsensically (do not read any further) this reference highlights my point; God allows us to choose to pray through love and faith in Him. The more we pray the more we grow in faith and the more we discover love through God. You must take the step in faith such that you choose to pray for the right reason - to grow in the knowledge and love of God - not to "test and refine prayer theory".

Prayer is not about "getting what you want"; it is about trusting in God such that He will provide the best for you to give you what He knows you need.

Matthew 6

[30] If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? [31] So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' [32] For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. [33] But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.​

When you search for statistical evidence of the efficacy of prayer don't search for how many were answered "Yes"; search for the people who live happy and content in the knowledge (through faith) that God is working in their lives. In other words statistical studies applied to prayer are useless in determining its veracity concerning God and Christianity.

 

[wesmorris]

I SO don't give a crap about your scripture. Well, that's not exactly true. I'm glad it works for you.. but to me, personally, it's kind of gross. Ick. Please keep it to yourself. Don't you have any words of your own to make your statement? If all you have to say is through someone else's words, you are of little interest to me in this place. I wish you well and desire you no harm, but have no interest in what appears to me as nothing more than tripe.

 

[MarcAC]

I SO don't give a crap about your scripture. Well, that's not exactly true. I'm glad it works for you.. but to me, personally, it's kind of gross. Ick. Please keep it to yourself. Don't you have any words of your own to make your statement? If all you have to say is through someone else's words, you are of little interest to me in this place. I wish you well and desire you no harm, but have no interest in what appears to me as nothing more than tripe.

Well, Wes, I would advise you to keep your truth to yourself too (as you aren't the only poster at SF) and simply ignore the post (same to all who share the view) as it is certainly not intended for one who gets some "emotional repulsion" when exposed to scripture.

I mean, hey, if you don't want to see it, fine, don't read it - put me on ignore or something but I assure you I will not put you on ignore and will certainly take advantage of you postings when I see the opportunity. I will disregard (after this) the baseless tripe you posted with regards to me "using someone else's words" which is clearly a result of your emotional repulsion.

Your "well wishes and harmlessness" mean nothing to me as I'm sure they mean nothing to you such that your agnostic state of confusion provides you with no sound basis for your "harmless wishing well" wich can be no better or worse than your "emotional repulsion" to scripture. Those are all my thoughts btw.

 

[cato]

sorry to interject off topic, but I noticed that many of you don't use the quote system

example

I think it may be because you prefer to use the quick reply feature, but you can still quote from the quick reply. just simply type:
(ignore the periods. .)
[.quote.=.example.]example[./.quote.]

 

[SkinWalker]

And the most interesting thing said on page six is.... "godulated!

Unlike wesmorris, however, I find the liberal use of scripture quotes by some here to be fascinating. In spite of the fallacious nature of the source, believers continue to cite it as if it were actually peer-reviewed. Perhaps they simply aren't aware of the similarities to (and sometimes outright plagiarism of) other, older myths, legends and stories in the Near East. Certainly they are aware of the many contradictions contained in the source.

In spite of all this... they continue to quote and cite it as a source. Fascinating.

 

[Woody]

Woody originally said: I sent out a lot of resumes to different companies over the weeks, but one morning, I showed up at my old job, and I knew somebody read my resume that was really interested in me. I just had that feeling -- I call it supernatural perception -- I could feel it.

Q said:He said that he woke up and had a supernatural insight that something good was going to occur, in this case, his prayers being answered.

Woody says: Nope that's not what I said, re-read the quote.
I did not "wake up to a feeling." I was sitting at my desk at work in the morning, and I knew somebody was reading my resume that was highly interested in me. They called in the afternoon to interview me for a job that I did not apply for.

--------------------------------------------
Q said: Anyone with a minushka of rationality MUST ask why that prayer was answered while so many more prayers go unanswered in regards to famine, war, disease, pestulence, etc.

Woody said: I agree, and Christians understand the difference.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I Cor 2:14

----------------------------------------------------------------

Q says: You actually were making a good argument, Woody, as can be seen by the many responses in this thread. But now you've lost it, completely.

Woody says: So you are telling me to just ignore spiritual discernment, one of God's great biblical gifts. When God tugs at my heart and tells me somebody is dieing that-I-know, you just want me to ignore Him do you. I should tell you to kiss-off Q-dude!

--------------------------------

Southstar says: Jesus loves good ol' South Alabama and Mississippi boys! They beat those damn slaves with their Bibles just like ever' good massa should.

Woody says: You know some of them personally?

--------------------------------

Quigly said: The problem is that he interpreted those feelings after the fact

Woody says: not so Quigly! The perception happened before the phone call, and I was anticipating the call. I'm not bragging on that, some people get a bona fide premonition that things are about to happen.

Take my sister for example, she was always so afraid that she would have a badly deformed child. She had this fear from the time she was about 12. The only child she had was autistic.

For many, many years, my dad always dreaded wheelchairs. After his terrible fall he was confined to a wheelchair and he died a few weeks later.

A person just knows somethings in their bones, like my grandma that was in a coma in the rest home, my mother was in the room with her, and grandma raised up her head, smiled, and waved goodbye. Then she stopped breathing and died.

 

[gendanken]

Woody sez:

Woody says: You count out the power of infinite knowledge that we don't have, and a benevolent mentor that takes my requests and seeks out the best solutions. The job was there for the taking for anyone, but the Lord saw to it that I got it.

Since when is infinite knowledge so godamned ambiguous?

If you didn't get that job of yours, it was all for the best as that is what God wanted.
And that you did get it, it was all for the best as that is that is what God wanted.
And that you did get it, but did not know about it, it was all for the best as press rewind and push play.
And if you almost got it, having known abut it, but did not, it was all for the best as rewind and press play again.
And if you almost got it, having not known about it until someone else did, it was all press rewind and play again.
press rewind and play again
press rewind and play again


If anything this god of yours throws your way is seen as The Best Answer, no matter how far above or below or right on the request you made of his Wonderful All Knowing Mercy, then why pray for anything?
You need him for what exactly if the answer is so subjective?
Council?
Or for the same reason you hang a rodent's foot from your keychain as luck?

I have a hard time separating you from the Mexican paisanas sifting rose petals for the Virgin Mary.
Any blotch will do.

No, you don't seek god for counsel as honest as any one like you will assert to.
Counsel requires discussion and deliberation.
You aren’t discussing anything, you are simply interpreting silence by whistling your way through it.


So why do you pray, though? I've often wondered, even way back when I myself was taught to pray and got up every now and then from my knees with that faint whiff of being conned.

The reason why you and them pray is the same one that guided you through grade school: its comfortable knowing someone else has The Answer.
When you showed up in sneakers you were unsure of were 'cool' on the first day of school, it was comforting to find someone one else you took as higher than you wore them also.

God forbid your nerd friend wore them right along with you because nothing is right or cool or The Best that you take to be on your level.

But if the jock or the cheerleader, who do not even know your name, wore them... presto.
There was your answer.
Those sneakers were cool.

See?
You've never grown up.
That, good sir, is why you pray.

Small aside, Manson said this in an interview once:

They try to put 'em off on me. They lie to me, they cheat me. I pick my nose wipe it on the wall and they pick it up and take it to their kids and tell 'em who gave it to them. They use it as a sick keepsake. Tell their kids that it came from the devil, they rub it on their cocks and jerk off then come here and smack me. Motherfuckers!

*grin*

MOTHERFUCKERS!!

I've just pictured a million Baptists showing off God's Slimy Buger to their respective Sunday Schools.
A million some odd the world-wide interpreting god's answer smeared on their prison walls...


Water:

Water:
No.
And that is the thing.
Prayer, so often, "doesn't work" because people are superstitious, expect magic. As if God were their personal slot machine.
Or people are praying to someone or something else, not to God. Expecting that God will be what they want Him to be.

God answers in ways the person understands, and in ways they can accept. This means God's works are mostly mundane and simple.

Pardon, but Mr. Woody here was not praying for magic.

I mean its fine and well for you think I'm specifically talking about the dwarf who prays that god grant him inches but, sorry sweets, I'm not.

Tell me, then.
How does it 'work' then, Water.
Enlighten me.

Cole Grey:

Unless prayer is an explicable, natural, factor of causation, which has not been studied enough or in the proper way to figure this out yet.
I don't know

Think about it.
It is.

St. Assisi and St. Augustine prayed in terms of Y therefore Z.
I feel afraid, unsure, tempted, insecure, hopeless therefore I will pray.
Those 5 caused the 6th one.

What would and does defy causation are the claims made afterwards.

(And I don't think these people get your point- prayer does have a health to it.
It at least addresses issues those that don’t at least pray about will never know exists.)