Prayer Works -- a praise report for my Christian Brethren

[cole grey]

Examples, please?

follow the link posted above for many examples of evidence. If you choose to be "ignore-ant", on the subject, don't blame me. As I said, if you wish to refute the ample-ness of the evidence, or its reliability, go ahead, but in order to do that, you will have to check it out. "I'm not looking," isn't a refutation, except on the lowest possible of rhetorical levels, which is far below the lowest possible substantive level anyway.

I said -"If all the people in the world who attest to being "religious" were to pray for the african aids crisis every day, there would be a positive effect."
Q said - "Really? As opposed to the righteous getting up off their knees and actually doing something about the aids crisis in Africa?"

Not in opposition at all, actually. People praying about it requires them to think about it. Ignore-ance is the biggest problem. Self-absorption.
Or perhaps you believe that humans, having the crisis in front of their faces every day, would still (all) refuse to act. Maybe you are right, and we are just rotten bastards anyway.

 

[SkinWalker]

SW says: How many of your own have gone unanswered?

Woody says: none.

Yeah, right.

 

[Woody]

SW says: How many of your own have gone unanswered?

Woody says: none.

SW: Yeah, right.

Woody: I honestly can't think of a serious heart-felt prayer that the Lord hasn't answered. His answer isn't always what I ask for, but it is what is needful. I trust Him to do what's best -- just like this job I got.

There were other employers that turned me down, and I was disappointed at the time. Now, I'm glad they turned me down because I have the job I really wanted. It is a great career move and a super opportunity for me.

 

[SkinWalker]

follow the link posted above for many examples of evidence.

Wow. A link of Google hits. How about you present of these which you believe is the best evidence? Because here's a quote from the very first link in your link of links:

In all of this we must not forget that there is a dark side to prayer. I've seen people die or suffer unnecessarily because they waited too long for their god to answer a prayer. Belief in prayer also opens the door for those who prey on the fragile hopes of vulnerable patients. Dossey, Byrd, and other likeminded "physicians" should focus on helping people manage medical problems with real medical solutions, and help people confront reality when there are no medical solutions.

Interestingly enough, this is the only link of the ones I clicked that bothered to list references and was written in proper, technical format.

If you choose to be "ignore-ant", on the subject, don't blame me. As I said, if you wish to refute the ample-ness of the evidence, or its reliability, go ahead, but in order to do that, you will have to check it out. "I'm not looking," isn't a refutation, except on the lowest possible of rhetorical levels, which is far below the lowest possible substantive level anyway.

The extraordinary claim belongs to those that believe it. If believers want to use "evidence" to support it, believers should properly cite it. The evidence cited should be "extraordinary." Otherwise, we can discard their claim since it amounts to mere anecdote.

Not in opposition at all, actually. People praying about it requires them to think about it.

I disagree. "Praying about it" simply gives them a reason to believe they've actually done something when, in fact, they've done nothing at all. Even the thoughts they have about subjects like AIDS or Genocide in Africa are likely to be incomplete and uninformed. They're satisfied with their "prayers."

Ignore-ance is the biggest problem. Self-absorption.

Indeed. We are talking about the same thing. Simply "praying" about such issues is ignorance to the extreme.

 

[SkinWalker]

I honestly can't think of a serious heart-felt prayer that the Lord hasn't answered.

You've never prayed for starving or diseased children?

My initial question was rhetorical anyway (how many of your own prayers have gone unanswered?) since the subject is boundless. One who is a believer of the supernatural and the paranormal can always justify his/her beliefs by simply introducing a new rule, such as "sometimes his answers weren't what I wanted, but they were what I needed."

Beyond that, you probably ignore and discard the "misses" in the same manner a believer in astrology or ESP or Channeling does. They see only the "hits," completely ignoring the "misses." Thus reinforcing their beliefs.

There is no scientific evidence to support the effectiveness of prayer beyond simple psychosomatic response in the same manner as the placebo effect. In studies of "groups of people" praying for others that have proper controls in place, no "power of prayer" is present. In fact, there is a recent study that was conducted and published by a peer-reviewed journal that turned out to be a scam by a known con-artist.

This thread belongs in the Pseudoscience sub-forum.

 

[Woody]

S/W: You've never prayed for starving or diseased children?

Woody: I sent them aid. Check out Jerry Falwell's ministry. He can feed a Haitian child for 1 year on $35 worth of nutritional supplement.

S/W: There is no scientific evidence to support the effectiveness of prayer beyond simple psychosomatic response in the same manner as the placebo effect.

Woody: Fine, you do your thing, and the Lord and I will do ours.

 

[MarcAC]

If prayer worked there would be some statistical evidence for it.

God knows what we need before we ask for it. The point of human prayer is communication; communion with God. The statistical evidence is there; the point being some were answered "Yes", some "No" and some "Not Yet".

People who pray are no more likely to find jobs or regain their sight than anyone else once you adjust for a placebo effect.

Really? Have any statistical evidence for this?

 

[SkinWalker]

Where is this "statistical evidence?" Exactly?

 

[Woody]

S/W: This thread belongs in the Pseudoscience sub-forum.

Woody: This is a religion forum, and it's the appropriate place for a thread about prayer.

 

[SkinWalker]

Yes, but people arguing that there is statistical evidence or any other evidence for the "power of prayer" is pseudoscience.

 

[MarcAC]

Where is this "statistical evidence?" Exactly?

Right at the tip of your tongue.
Just ask a Christian; "Have you ever had a prayer answered?". He'll say "Yes!"

Ask an atheist: "Have you ever had a prayer answered?". He'll say "No!?"

Try it, I gaurantee you'll see the evidence there.

 

[cole grey]

Wow. A link of Google hits. How about you present of these which you believe is the best evidence? Because here's a quote from the very first link in your link of links:Interestingly enough, this is the only link of the ones I clicked that bothered to list references and was written in proper, technical format.

I don't have a problem with that. Ninety percent of that page is a discussion on the spiritual and theological implications of prayer, which isn't the thrust of my argument. Like I said, if you don't find the links interesting (including the argument against) feel free to IGNORE them.

The extraordinary claim belongs to those that believe it. If believers want to use "evidence" to support it, believers should properly cite it. The evidence cited should be "extraordinary." Otherwise, we can discard their claim since it amounts to mere anecdote.

The evidence doesn't "have" to be anything. "We" can make our own conclusions based on what "we" find compelling. YOU may require the evidence to be extraordinary, I merely require it to be persuasive. And since I have never heard of a large-scale study being done to give evidence against prayer's effectiveness, and have heard of a number of them which give evidence for prayer's effectiveness, I will (for now) believe prayer has an effect, WHETHER OR NOT this effect is due to God listening and acting is a question I have seen no evidence for or against.

I disagree. "Praying about it" simply gives them a reason to believe they've actually done something when, in fact, they've done nothing at all. Even the thoughts they have about subjects like AIDS or Genocide in Africa are likely to be incomplete and uninformed. They're satisfied with their "prayers."

As opposed to the people who are satisfied with it not even entering their minds. Better that one in a thousand people who are thinking about this problem every day (as supposed in my hypothesis), would do something, than having a thousand people who spend the day without even thinking about it. Sorry, you can try to dismiss any value caused by "spiritual" means, but you cannot dismiss the value of bringing a problem to the front of the consciousness of that many people, even for a minute a day. Someone would have a thought on how to help. Someone would have a thought that they should help. Someone would help. This is inevitable.

Simply "praying" about such issues is ignorance to the extreme.

Unfortunately for your argument, "simply praying" is something that happens less often than you would like to believe. Unless by praying you mean reading a script to appease God and show God you "care". That isn't prayer.

 

[cole grey]

S/W: You've never prayed for starving or diseased children?

Woody: I sent them aid. Check out Jerry Falwell's ministry. He can feed a Haitian child for 1 year on $35 worth of nutritional supplement.


Even the pre-enlightenment era mind of Jerry Falwell's has helped those children.
This is all the evidence I need to support my claim.
If all of this wasn't so sad, I would laugh.

P.S. don't mention all that anti-gay, aids is a curse, let them burn and suffer, crap - that is not a christian prayer, even if it is "prayed" by a christian.

 

[MarcAC]

There is no scientific evidence to support the effectiveness of prayer beyond simple psychosomatic response in the same manner as the placebo effect. In studies of "groups of people" praying for others that have proper controls in place, no "power of prayer" is present. In fact, there is a recent study that was conducted and published by a peer-reviewed journal that turned out to be a scam by a known con-artist.

This thread belongs in the Pseudoscience sub-forum.

A "Gospel Forum" need be created for this post - presenting "data" without credentials or references.

 

[SkinWalker]

The evidence doesn't "have" to be anything. "We" can make our own conclusions based on what "we" find compelling.

I.e. the fallacy of enumeration of favorable circumstances.

YOU may require the evidence to be extraordinary, I merely require it to be persuasive.

For evidence of an extraordinary claim to be persuasive, wouldn't the evidence itself need to be "extraordinary?" Is not the ability of someone to speak to an invisible, omniscent and omnipotent being and have that being act upon a request extraordinary?

And since I have never heard of a large-scale study being done to give evidence against prayer's effectiveness,

http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/wirthstudy.html

and have heard of a number of them which give evidence for prayer's effectiveness,

Name three. Nay... name one but with a proper citation.

 

[Woody]

S/W says: Name three. Nay... name one but with a proper citation.

Woody says: I never went to the Lord with a list of proper specifications, I just prayed and let Him take care of the rest.

You'll never get there your way. Faith is God's way.

 

[SkinWalker]

In fact, there is a recent study that was conducted and published by a peer-reviewed journal that turned out to be a scam by a known con-artist.

This thread belongs in the Pseudoscience sub-forum.

A "Gospel Forum" need be created for this post - presenting "data" without credentials or references.

Flamm, Bruce L. (2001). Faith Healing by Prayer The Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine vol. 6, issue 1, pp 47-51

 

[SkinWalker]

S/W says: Name three. Nay... name one but with a proper citation.

Woody says: I never went to the Lord with a list of proper specifications, I just prayed and let Him take care of the rest.

Perhaps you're too busy with your little "Woody says:" prefaces to notice that I was replying to Cole Grey.

 

[Woody]

SW: Flamm, Bruce L. (2001). Faith Healing by Prayer The Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine vol. 6, issue 1, pp 47-51

Woody: Oh, give me a break -- we all get old and die some day.

 

[Woody]

Sw says: Perhaps you're too busy with your little "Woody says:" prefaces to notice that I was replying to Cole Grey.

Woody says: I'm following the discussion -- you want a laboratory study on the effectiveness of prayer. You will never be satisified with any result because you have no faith. That's too bad for you.