Owning a person

[Raithere]

I am not sure how your confirmation that a prostitute is just an object of sexual gratification which is not seen as a person with needs and desires is anyway indicative of contradicting my stance that their body is being used as if it were separate from the person possessing it. The very fact that men who frequent prostitutes do so because they do not have to acknowledge the woman as anything but their slave corroborates the fact that they are predators.

If that's your interpretation then we could say the same thing of women who frequent day spas and the masseuses whose body they purchase for physical pleasure. For that matter, dating would also be predatory if either party's objective is merely sex. Actors, prostituting themselves on stage for the gratification of others... we might as well consider it a gang-bang.

I wonder why you think so little of women, that their ability to choose for themselves is irrelevant.

~Raithere

 

[S.A.M.]

If that's your interpretation then we could say the same thing of women who frequent day spas and the masseuses whose body they purchase for physical pleasure. For that matter, dating would also be predatory if either party's objective is merely sex. Actors, prostituting themselves on stage for the gratification of others... we might as well consider it a gang-bang.

I wonder why you think so little of women, that their ability to choose for themselves is irrelevant.

~Raithere

I think a woman pampering her body is a far cry from a man using it as a cum dump with complete disregard for what she feels or needs. But, we can agree to disagree.

Again, I reiterate, its the demand side of the equation I am questioning here.

 

[Raithere]

I think a woman pampering her body is a far cry from a man using it as a cum dump with complete disregard for what she feels or needs. But, we can agree to disagree.

Again, I reiterate, its the demand side of the equation I am questioning here.

I don't see that "complete disregard" is a necessary component. When I go to a restaurant, I expect the server to serve me and I am not required to return anything but monetary compensation. But this does not mean is have complete disregard for them as a person.

Where exactly do you draw the line? If it's not nudity or the giving/receiving of physical pleasure, if it's not the purchase of someone's labor, where is it? The moment a penis enters a vagina? The moment someone orgasms?

~Raithere

 

[S.A.M.]

I don't see that "complete disregard" is a necessary component. When I go to a restaurant, I expect the server to serve me and I am not required to return anything but monetary compensation. But this does not mean is have complete disregard for them as a person.

Where exactly do you draw the line? If it's not nudity or the giving/receiving of physical pleasure, if it's not the purchase of someone's labor, where is it? The moment a penis enters a vagina? The moment someone orgasms?

~Raithere

Dehumanising a person. That would do it for me.I can still recall an interview with a a prostitute in my college years where she told me about men who would piss on her and she let them, because it paid extra.

 

[PsychoTropicPuppy]

So paying a prostitute for sex is...equal with dehumanisation?

Yeah? I know that normal couples do also take pleasure in the 'golden shower', and they don't pay each other for it. Do you mean to say that they are dehumanising each others, too?

 

[S.A.M.]

So paying a prostitute for sex is...equal with dehumanisation?

Yeah? I know that normal couples do also take pleasure in the 'golden shower', and they don't pay each other for it. Do you mean to say that they are dehumanising each others, too?

You know normal couples who piss on each other? I guess then it depends on your definition of normal. Paraphilia is not considered the norm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urolagnia

 

[PsychoTropicPuppy]

Yes, I do. They love each others, they care about each others in spite of trying out various sex games.

You know, I find it truly interesting how you're speaking of how people who pay for sex are sexual predators that dehumanise prostitutes, yet you yourself admitted that you have no respect for prostitutes, or at least you hinted on it. Truly, I wonder who is dehumanising who here.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yes, I do. They love each others, they care about each others in spite of trying out various sex games.

You know, I find it truly interesting how you're speaking of how people who pay for sex are sexual predators that dehumanise prostitutes, yet you yourself admitted that you have no respect for prostitutes, or at least you hinted on it. Truly, I wonder who is dehumanising who here.

Oh where did you read this? Do I blame the child for pedophilia? The supply depends on there being a demand. I have worked with the children of prostitutes as part of a project several years ago, so my opinions are based on what I heard from them and from their mothers. People mutually peeing on each other is not the same as one peeing on the other and paying for it. A sex game is not an average 13 hours of sex of week with at least 10 different strangers. This is an occupation, not a sharing of mutual desire for deviance. Having your spouse engage you in sex games in not the same as some joe or jane you don't know expecting you to set aside your humanity for his/her exclusive sexual gratification. simply because you have the body parts they need to get there.

 

[Raithere]

Dehumanising a person. That would do it for me.I can still recall an interview with a a prostitute in my college years where she told me about men who would piss on her and she let them, because it paid extra.

This still doesn't allow us to make a differentiation. As was just pointed out people do all of these these activities you are objecting to for free. We could make the argument that working in a factory or office cubicle is dehumanizing, as people are often treated as merely functional and replaceable components of the organization and therefore objectified.

So at what point does the exchange of money for sex make it immoral and why does this not apply to other activities? All I see here is that you believe that particular sexual activities are dehumanizing and therefore immoral.

~Raithere

 

[S.A.M.]

This still doesn't allow us to make a differentiation. As was just pointed out people do all of these these activities you are objecting to for free. We could make the argument that working in a factory or office cubicle is dehumanizing, as people are often treated as merely functional and replaceable components of the organization and therefore objectified.

So at what point does the exchange of money for sex make it immoral and why does this not apply to other activities? All I see here is that you believe that particular sexual activities are dehumanizing and therefore immoral.

~Raithere

I don't think working in a cubicle counts, its not a private personal activity, sex is not a commodity and prostitution is by definition, by and large a loss of sexual autonomy and a violation of the person of the victim. Its why you don't have large corporations offering/expecting sexual services as a product, with aggressive marketing and brand protection, offering training and recruitment services training people in the "job" of offering a variety of sexual services.

Most people still consider sex as a personal private activity, not something they do as a matter of course, anywhere or with anybody. The ones who don't, usually have personality issues they need to work on.

How many strangers would you be willing to sleep with for money?

 

[Orleander]

Sam do you see prostitution any differently than working in the porn industry?

 

[S.A.M.]

Sam do you see prostitution any differently than working in the porn industry?

No, they are both exploitative as are many commercial industries where men/women are exploited for their sexuality.

Not that all such instances are exploitative

e.g. this ad for shoes was meant to be striking [both of them were a couple and national level athletes as well as models]

And it is, [who saw the shoes?] but the brand name became emblazoned in everyones head with it.

But this is clearly tasteless, even though she is wearing more clothes.

 

[Orleander]

why is modeling underwear tasteless.

 

[S.A.M.]

Because of the way the girl is presented. Try and imagine your own kid posing like that on a bill board. Most American Apparel ads are like soft porn.

Here's one of the men:

 

[Orleander]

Because of the way the girl is presented. Try and imagine your own kid posing like that on a bill board. Most American Apparel ads are like soft porn....

LOL, ever seen Sports Illustrated Swimsuit edition?

 

[S.A.M.]

Do I need to see them to decide if the way these people are being used is unsavoury?

I am not a prude where the human body is concerned, I see too many half naked people in hospitals for that, but when I get a physical aversion to one, it has little to do with the state of clothing, more with what is conveyed.

Its not hard to see the vulnerability of the victim as compared to the insouciance of the professional.

 

[Asguard]

Do I need to see them to decide if the way these people are being used is unsavoury?

I am not a prude where the human body is concerned, I see too many half naked people in hospitals for that, but when I get a physical aversion to one, it has little to do with the state of clothing, more with what is conveyed.

Its not hard to see the vulnerability of the victim as compared to the insouciance of the professional.

you are a prude, its ovious by your comments. Wether you see naked bodies in a hospital or not where sexuality is concerened your a prude. Basically what gives you the right to judge ANYONE?

Oh and as a side issue how exactly are you surposed to chose lingerie for a partner if you cant see what it looks like on someone?

How exactly is this porn?

and even if it is how is it any of your buiness?

BTW that comes from this website: http://www.innuendolingerie.com.au/index.asp

which is a really nice store around the courner from us owned by a husband and wife who actually give a shit about there coustimers. Unlike SOME stores (*cough* *cough* BNT) they actually try to get there stuff in at REAL sizes (for those who read by bitch thread on the issue a while ago)

 

[James R]

I don't think working in a cubicle counts, its not a private personal activity, sex is not a commodity and prostitution is by definition, by and large a loss of sexual autonomy and a violation of the person of the victim.

Not where the prostitute freely chooses her occupation.

Like it or not, sex is a commodity. It is bought and sold, sometimes for cash, sometimes in more subtle transactions.

A prostitute who has sex by choice does not lose her sexual autonomy. She makes the decision to provide sexual services in return for monetary reward. Nobody forces her into it. Nor is it a "violation", since she fully consents.

Most people still consider sex as a personal private activity, not something they do as a matter of course, anywhere or with anybody.

Prostitutes do too. They aren't out having sex in public places in broad daylight.

How many strangers would you be willing to sleep with for money?

It would depend on the strangers and how much money was involved, I guess. Everything has a price.

 

[quadraphonics]

prostitution is by definition, by and large a loss of sexual autonomy and a violation of the person of the victim.

? From Wiki:

"Prostitution is the act or practice of engaging in sex acts for hire."

What you're referring to is called "rape."

Its why you don't have large corporations offering/expecting sexual services as a product, with aggressive marketing and brand protection, offering training and recruitment services training people in the "job" of offering a variety of sexual services.

You do where prostitution is legal. Ever been to Nevada?

Most people still consider sex as a personal private activity, not something they do as a matter of course, anywhere or with anybody.

So? Most people don't work as prostitutes. What's the point?

How many strangers would you be willing to sleep with for money?

Depends on how much money, what said strangers looked/smelled like, and what sex acts where expected of me.

Plenty of prostitutes seem to actually like their job and respect themselves. It's not all debased addicts and slaves.

 

[James R]

By the way, people who do this job usually prefer to call themselves "sex workers" these days. "Prostitute" has a whole bunch of ancient negative connotations.