Owning a person

[iceaura]

The very fact that men who frequent prostitutes do so because they do not have to acknowledge the woman as anything but their slave corroborates the fact that they are predators.

You are still being silly. It corroborates the fact that they are customers. In a minute, you are going to be labeling people who pay to get their shoes shined as predators because they do not acknowledge the humanity of the shoe shiner.

I don't think working in a cubicle counts, its not a private personal activity,

So public and impersonal dehumanization is OK?

 

[S.A.M.]

Not where the prostitute freely chooses her occupation.

Like it or not, sex is a commodity. It is bought and sold, sometimes for cash, sometimes in more subtle transactions.

A prostitute who has sex by choice does not lose her sexual autonomy. She makes the decision to provide sexual services in return for monetary reward. Nobody forces her into it. Nor is it a "violation", since she fully consents.



Prostitutes do too. They aren't out having sex in public places in broad daylight.



It would depend on the strangers and how much money was involved, I guess. Everything has a price.

I don't think so. Maybe everything has a price for some people. I simply do not find it acceptable.

Also I'd like to see evidence that this is some kind of career choice that people are voluntarily choosing consensually and not due to limited options or initial coercion.

What are the known reasons for prostitution?

You are still being silly. It corroborates the fact that they are customers. In a minute, you are going to be labeling people who pay to get their shoes shined as predators because they do not acknowledge the humanity of the shoe shiner.
So public and impersonal dehumanization is OK?

No dehumanisation is okay, but taking work orders from some person [who is not a stranger once you settle down into your job] is different from swallowing the body fluids of random unknown people.

For me at least. Maybe for you there is no difference?

 

[iceaura]

No dehumanisation is okay, but taking work orders from some person [who is not a stranger once you settle down into your job] is different from swallowing the body fluids of random unknown people.

You have a benign view of cubicle service, and a jaundiced view of prostitution. Others may differ.

For one thing, a bad sex customer is gone in a few minutes (or even immediately - they are disposable, easily replaced). A bad boss or coworker or job situation is a semi-permanent part of your life, hours on end, years maybe - you have much less control of their influence on your life.

And jobs come a lot worse than cubicle service.

And neither one involves ownership, to return to the thread topic.

Also I'd like to see evidence that this is some kind of career choice that people are voluntarily choosing consensually and not due to limited options or initial coercion.

Very few people make any employment choices without limits to their options or coercive circumstances in their lives.

 

[S.A.M.]

Then by your call, most people should prefer prostitution to the cubicle.

DO they?

 

[iceaura]

Then by your call, most people should prefer prostitution to the cubicle.

How's that? Most people don't value personal freedom so highly, or object to such coworkers so strenuously, that the confinement of a cubicle job feels all that bad to them.

Some even like the situation.

People differ. That is not a factor in whether or not they are owned.

 

[S.A.M.]

How's that? Most people don't value personal freedom so highly, or object to such coworkers so strenuously, that the confinement of a cubicle job feels all that bad to them.

Some even like the situation.

People differ. That is not a factor in whether or not they are owned.

Isn't it? Just because people differ in the degree to which they are willing to be abused does not make some forms of exploitation better than others.

I'm still waiting for evidence that prostitution is a career of choice and not dictated by initial coercion or financial constraints or limited options.

 

[iceaura]

Isn't it? Just because people differ in the degree to which they are willing to be abused does not make some forms of exploitation better than others.

But you have not started a thread claiming that people stuck in cubicles are owned, and attempting to analyze their abused situation from a demand side peopled by predators who own them.

I'm still waiting for evidence that prostitution is a career of choice and not dictated by initial coercion or financial constraints or limited options.

So what if it is? Most jobs are. Including the ones that suck.

A lot of marriages are, as well - a more likely field for analytical exploration of "ownership" than a 45 minute service job.

The only "intelligence" test I ever found interesting was a machine that measured processed communication speed between the halves of the frontal lobes of the brain - the subject is hooked up to a simplified EEG, a click noise is made in one ear, and the onset time of the reaction and the "reflection" in the two halves of the brain is recorded. It correlated very well with IQ testing among upper class white European males, diverged increasingly from IQ tests as the subjects' demographics diverged from that group. So it looked interesting.

The fastest brain measured at the time I read about this thing belonged to a stripper in a Chicago bar. Turned out she spoke several languages, dropped out of college from boredom, and was traveling the world as an "exotic dancer". Chicago was her latest stop, and she was taking advantage of the very good university there by picking up calculus in her spare time - with pro bono private tutoring from a grad student she'd met playing Go at a local coffeehouse.

 

[S.A.M.]

The fastest brain measured at the time I read about this thing belonged to a stripper in a Chicago bar. Turned out she spoke several languages, dropped out of college from boredom, and was traveling the world as an "exotic dancer". Chicago was her latest stop, and she was taking advantage of the very good university there by picking up calculus in her spare time - with pro bono private tutoring from a grad student she'd met playing Go at a local coffeehouse.

She represents prostitutes the way Bill Gates represents college dropouts.

 

[iceaura]

She represents prostitutes the way Bill Gates represents college dropouts.

So?

People differ. Some want freedom more than others, some want money more than others, etc.

Back a few years some big movie star got caught paying for "escorts" from a Hollywood service, and his friend asked him "why?" - He could have bedded any of dozens of attractive women, even as brief flings, simply by asking; why was he paying? He said: "I don't pay them for sex. I pay them to go home afterwards".

He paid to not own them.

 

[S.A.M.]

So?

People differ. Some want freedom more than others, some want money more than others, etc.

Back a few years some big movie star got caught paying for "escorts" from a Hollywood service, and his friend asked him "why?" - He could have bedded any of dozens of attractive women, even as brief flings, simply by asking; why was he paying? He said: "I don't pay them for sex. I pay them to go home afterwards".

He paid to not own them.

Marvelous. Clearly the ideal for all men.

 

[iceaura]

Marvelous. Clearly the ideal for all men.

?

Chosen in illustration of two things: 1) people differ No one is an ideal for all anyone. 2) Prostitution in general is not an example of "ownership".

So if you want to talk about owning a person, some other example would work much better. How about marriage? It lasts more than an hour, usually, involves contractual bond, is often entered into from coercion, need, and limited opportunity, and so forth. The matter of complete disregard for the needs and so forth of the owned party is also frequently observed.

 

[S.A.M.]

?

Chosen in illustration of two things: 1) people differ No one is an ideal for all anyone. 2) Prostitution in general is not an example of "ownership".

So if you want to talk about owning a person, some other example would work much better. How about marriage? It lasts more than an hour, usually, involves contractual bond, is often entered into from coercion, need, and limited opportunity, and so forth. The matter of complete disregard for the needs and so forth of the owned party is also frequently observed.

Do you realise that the fact he was paying escorts rather than sleeping with attractive women he knew is support for the fact that he was merely interested in using their holes [when he felt like it], rather than seeing them as persons? He was paying for them to go home, because they were not people to him. He would rather rent a body than form a relationship.

 

[James R]

I don't think so. Maybe everything has a price for some people. I simply do not find it acceptable.

But that's just a personal view. Others are not the same as you.

Also I'd like to see evidence that this is some kind of career choice that people are voluntarily choosing consensually and not due to limited options or initial coercion.

A brief search of the internet should do the trick.

It's not unusual for people to choose sex work to pay their way through college (university), for example. In the student magazine at my university, there's on average at least one story a year from such a person about her experiences (different people each year).

What are the known reasons for prostitution?

Think about it.

No dehumanisation is okay, but taking work orders from some person [who is not a stranger once you settle down into your job] is different from swallowing the body fluids of random unknown people.

No at sex workers will swallow body fluids. Some demand the use of a condom for oral sex, for instance, or else don't do that at all.

Isn't it? Just because people differ in the degree to which they are willing to be abused does not make some forms of exploitation better than others.

I already explained to you that consensual sex work is not exploitative or abusive.

 

[S.A.M.]

I have been unable to find a peer reviewed study on reasons for prostitution, could you provide some links?

I think paying for college qualifies as financial restraints, but I am pretty sure you cannot write prostitution as your occupation when applying for a student loan

And yes I am aware that some people will put a price on anything, even childrens bodies. But I don't consider that as sufficient justification for me to consider it as moral.

 

[James R]

I have been unable to find a peer reviewed study on reasons for prostitution, could you provide some links?

You can do the searching as well as I can.

I think paying for college qualifies as financial restraints...

There are other ways to pay for college. The point is, some people freely choose prostitution to do it. It isn't that they have no other choice.

And yes I am aware that some people will put a price on anything, even childrens bodies.

Don't be disingenuous. In one case we have an adult freely consenting to something; in the other we have abuse of a child by a third party. There is no comparison. You need to apply some reasoning before making snap moral judgments.

 

[S.A.M.]

So you are refusing to back up your claim? I thought this was a scientific site where the one making the assertion supported it? I base my opinions on my personal experiences with brothels in Mumbai. If you claim they are non-representative of prostitutes in general, I would like to see some evidence for it.

In my opinion based on my personal experience [and hence anecdotal] prostitution is resorted to by women of poor educational and financial means due to limited options. It is not something they wish to do for the long term, only until something better comes along. Frequently though, they find it hard to get out of it once they are in, due to the network of criminal elements associated with prostitution that exploit womens/childrens bodies for predators

Do you have any evidence that contradicts this?

The point is, some people freely choose prostitution to do it. It isn't that they have no other choice.

Do they declare it as their occupation? How do you know they have other choices?

 

[S.A.M.]

Since I could not locate any academic studies which I can access:

Sanger examined the identity of the average prostitute and sought to understand why she had turned to that lifestyle. He found that the majority of prostitutes were in their late teens or early twenties; they were usually illiterate, poor and from broken families (Bullough 243). Victorian Servant Economic poverty, societal disgrace, and lack of education were also causes of girls turning towards prostitution; they had a limited number of options available to them. Sanger asked several prostitutes why they had turned to this way of life and they gave a number of different reasons. For instance, some women had either been expelled from their homes or deserted by their parents and found prostitution the only way to support themselves. Other girls were forced into prostitution in order for their families to survive. Similarly, girls who had worked in domestics or servants were forced into prostitution because they had been seduced by their masters and then abandoned. On the other hand, a number of women would turn to prostitution simply as an escape from typical professions. Many of the girls expected to remain prostitutes only until something better became available. Immigrant women who had arrived to the country without money or were brought into the country forcibly had only prostitution open to them (Bullough 243). The conditions for women in the Victorian period caused many young teenagers and women to turn towards prostitution as a means of survival.

In the twenty-first century (1980-2001), women are prostitutes for many different reasons and these roots of prostitution are similar to the reasons women became prostitutes in the Victorian age. Some women move into prostitution due to economic needs like poverty, emotional neediness and susceptibility to pressure from friends; few women listed only one main reason for entering into the profession (Scambler 7). Some prostitutes’ explanation for becoming involved in prostitution include “having a history of sexual abuse, having grown up without love from the significant adults in their lives, being enticed by a male of female friend or by peer pressure from a group of friends, and needing money. Those who used drugs prior to their involvement in prostitution activities mention their addiction as a major reason for trading sex for money or drugs.” (Sterk 35)

“For generations if not centuries, the causes and consequences of prostitution have rested on women. However, as there would be no prostitution without market demand, there would be no industrialization of sex without commodity consumption.” (Barry 162) In the Victorian period, women were blamed for prostitution because it was not the men’s fault they were being seduced by the evil temptresses but the women were to blame. Victorians’ ideals of social purity and morality contrasted with "dire economic poverty for working class and underclass women involved in a prolific sex-for-sale market." (Scambler 3) In the twenty-first century, prostitution and other sex work is one of the most thriving industries internationally. Although still viewed morally wrong, women who sell sex are still allowed to continue their trade. The fact is sex work is an exceptionally lucrative market and prostitution will only continue to grow internationally. Why has prostitution been allowed to continue? The answer is simple: men.

http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~ulrich/femhist/sex_work.shtml

 

[James R]

So you are refusing to back up your claim?

Which claim?

I base my opinions on my personal experiences with brothels in Mumbai. If you claim they are non-representative of prostitutes in general, I would like to see some evidence for it.

Which experiences are you referring to, in particular?

In my opinion based on my personal experience [and hence anecdotal] prostitution is resorted to by women of poor educational and financial means due to limited options. It is not something they wish to do for the long term, only until something better comes along. Frequently though, they find it hard to get out of it once they are in, due to the network of criminal elements associated with prostitution that exploit womens/childrens bodies for predators

Do you have any evidence that contradicts this?

Yes, because you are assuming, based incorrectly on a limited sample, that ALL prostitutes have poor education and financial means, do not wish to be sex workers, etc. It is simply not true of all sex workers. It's not hard to find examples that disprove your assumption.

Do they declare it as their occupation?

Who? University students? I think most full-time students would put down "Student" as their occupation, because that is their main occupation.

How do you know they have other choices?

Because they say so.

 

[James R]

SAM:

Your post #177 is all very well, but it's tangential to where you started with this thread. You seem to have lost track of the initial subject.

Let me remind you:

Is prostitution a form of barter where you own a person's body?

No.

Is there anything that one is not legally permitted to do to a bought sexual partner?

Yes.

IOW, if you pay for sex, are you trafficking in that persons body?

No.

These questions were answered right near the start of the thread.

Now you seem to have moved on to arguing that all prostitution is morally wrong. You have yet to explain why you think that is, especially in the case where it is a freely made choice of occupation.

 

[S.A.M.]

Because they say so.

Can I see any evidence of this at all? Who says so? Where?

it's tangential to where you started with this thread. You seem to have lost track of the initial subject.

What do you think the topic is?