Our attitude concerning mockery of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon

[Michael]

The native Americans,

Red herring.
They were being conquered in the name of the King of England, France, Spain, Portugal, The Netherlands ... ... ...

As for India, I for one think it was a good thing they became a democracy. Perhaps you'd still like to pay tribute to a Queen or King?

 

[Arsalan]

Yet Arsalan lives in a westernised country. Imagine that, with the stupid Westerners.

Ahh... So now we come to the crux of the problem... SAM, this is why they have such a hard time accepting it. They think that we are saying Westerners are stupid just because we say that Muslims, Easterners, made inventions and whatnot.../sarcasm

When have I said Westerners are stupid?

 

[Michael]

It's funny that this only goes one way - others can't bash muhammed but muslims can bash homosexuals, western women, culture

There is a uproar when some guy decides to make an image of muhammed but when there is vandalism or people get blown up - nothing

I'm still wondering if it's OK to burn effigies of the Living Prophet George Bush Jr.

 

[Michael]

It means that the same people who whine every year about 9/11 are occupying two countries have secret prisons where they torture people to death and are still talking about attacking other countries. Then they complain about the people whose countries they occupy. To top all that, they mock the people, call them terrorists and draw cartoons of their prophet with a bomb turban. And they wonder why the people get mad.

I think you are lumping many different people into one amalgamate. The person who wrote the cartoons is not the person who authorized invading Iraq. The person who published the cartoons is not the person who authorized secret prisons. The people who laughed at the bomb-turban are not the people who talk about attacking Iran.
On the side, it's interesting to note the the people who authorized invading Iraq, opened secret prisons and talk about bombing Iran are all monotheists while the guy who mocked Mohammad is attest. Seems to me that the mockery option is a better route to follow?

 

[Arsalan]

I'm still wondering if it's OK to burn effigies of the Living Prophet George Bush Jr.

Bush is as much a Prophet as is Musharraf

 

[Arsalan]

On the side, it's interesting to note the the people who authorized invading Iraq, opened secret prisons and talk about bombing Iran are all monotheists while the guy who mocked Mohammad is attest. Seems to me that the mockery option is a better route to follow?

The leaders that killed off 60m+ off their own people were atheist. Seems to me like its a pretty dangerous ideology :bugeye:

 

[Michael]

Yeah, apparently, colonialism, occupation, slavery and racism is civilisation. Demonising people on the basis of religion is civilisation. Air strikes from 40,000 feet on "militants" and "insurgents" is civilisation. Abu Ghraib and Gitmo is civlisation. Plundering native peoples and throwing them into reservations is civlisation. Not.

Colonialism and occupation is wrong. But you think it's OK when it's Muslims invaded other countries such as Egypt, Spain, Iran, and France. Then it's fine. "Defense of War" (I think that was the excuse Bush Jr used wasn't it? Oh, but he's a Prophet too).

Slavery - ha, lets not even go there.

Demonizing people based on religion - oh, like making them pay a tax and restricting their employment based on their belief? Or, how about killing them for desecrating their own temple with "polytheistic" idols?

Plundering native people? Oh, like the fertile lands of the Persians?

Racism? To this day I hear Muslims delineate themselves racially as "Arab" or "Persians" or "Turks" or "Kurds" or "Indians" many thinking these are different races. Even Muslims have told me "Jews" are a race - which is stupid as Judaism is a belief.

I agree that the Europeans have a barbaric past. It had nothing to do with me and I am fine with agreeing it was wrong and heinous. What I find ironic is how many Muslims can't seem to acknowledge the same about "Islamic" past. Oh, I forgot, cotton candy and everything sweet.

 

[Michael]

The leaders that killed off 60m+ off their own people were atheist. Seems to me like its a pretty dangerous ideology :bugeye:

You mean Chairman Mao? If the Chinese were atheists then why did my Chinese friend pray to Chairman Mao before dinner each night? Praying - Seems an odd thing to for an atheist to do doesn't it?

Communism was as much a religion as Islam. With their very own Prophet. Think about it - many many many more people prayed to Chairman Mao is his lifetime then to Allah during the lifetime of Mohammad.

 

[Michael]

The difference between the western civilisation and say, the Ottoman or Mughal civilisation is that in western civilisation, only the westerners benefit. Every one else is a nonentity [or collateral damages]. They do not exist.

Are Palestinians Westerners? Because my buddy now has his MD and is set for a good life in America - a country he loves. He still loves Palestine but he also loves America.

Can you imagine if he were taxed because he is Muslim? Or he was told he could not become a doctor because he was Muslim? What kind of f*cked up system would that be?

 

[Arsalan]

You mean Chairman Mao? If the Chinese were atheists then why did my Chinese friend pray to Chairman Mao before dinner each night? Praying - Seems an odd thing to for an atheist to do doesn't it?

Communism was as much a religion as Islam. With their very own Prophet. Think about it - many many many more people prayed to Chairman Mao is his lifetime then to Allah during the lifetime of Mohammad.

The question then becomes: Who did Mao pray to? This is a typical excuse from Atheists when faced with the evils committed by Atheist leaders.

 

[Michael]

How do you know the Muslims "plagiarized" the work if they did not give due credit?

Muslims invented the isnad or method of citation. They gave clear and complete sources for all their works, unlike the likes of Bacon, who pretended it was all his own invention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isnad

heh!
When was the Qur'an written down? By whom wrote down which part? Can you tell us what year the Qur'an was written?

 

[Arsalan]

heh!
When was the Qur'an written down? By whom wrote down which part? Can you tell us what year the Qur'an was written?

Whenever every verse of the Quran was reveealed, it was written down and memorized and this was witnessed by more then a few people. The whole history of the QUran being written down is recorded in the Hadith for one.

 

[Michael]

Bush is as much a Prophet as is Musharraf

Arsalan Arsalan Arsalan - did you just mock GW Bush Jr?!!?? Because that would run counter to your OP in which you suggest mocking Prophets is wrong!

I have personally spoken with Americans who thought/think Bush is an agent of YWHA doing the Lords work here on earth. Now, I'm sure if me, living in AU, have heard such crap write from the lips of a zealot then there are thousands of true believers out there.

You should be sensitive to their religion Arsalan! Pay your respect to The Living Last Prophet Bush Junior.

Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

Are Palestinians Westerners? Because my buddy now has his MD and is set for a good life in America - a country he loves. He still loves Palestine but he also loves America.

Can you imagine if he were taxed because he is Muslim? Or he was told he could not become a doctor because he was Muslim? What kind of f*cked up system would that be?

He is still taxed because he is a Muslim; unless he does not pay zakat.

 

[Arsalan]

Arsalan Arsalan Arsalan - did you just mock GW Bush Jr?!!?? Because that would run counter to your OP in which you suggest mocking Prophets is wrong!

I have personally spoken with Americans who thought/think Bush is an agent of YWHA doing the Lords work here on earth. Now, I'm sure if me, living in AU, have heard such crap write from the lips of a zealot then there are thousands of true believers out there.

You should be sensitive to their religion Arsalan! Pay your respect to The Living Last Prophet Bush Junior.

Michael

Just because some Americans (Always a credible source) think that Bush is some kind of Jesus, doesnt make it so. For one, because Prophets themselves come with guidance and teachings which bring peace and harmony. There is no proof whatsoever for Bush being a Prophet. Has he himself even acknowledged this? There is nothing there. I can go and claim I'm a Prophet, will that make it true? No. If you said yes, then the concept of Prophethood is too much for your limited understanding of the subject.

 

[S.A.M.]

Just because some Americans (Always a credible source) think that Bush is some kind of Jesus, doesnt make it so. For one, because Prophets themselves come with guidance and teachings which bring peace and harmony. There is no proof whatsoever for Bush being a Prophet. Has he himself even acknowledged this? There is nothing there. I can go and claim I'm a Prophet, will that make it true? No. If you said yes, then the concept of Prophethood is too much for your limited understanding of the subject.

He also believes in the flat earth theory.

I am referring to the optics described here, 1000 years before the advent of Islam:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_ancient_India

Again, are they in any way the same as Ibn Haythams work? Is everyone who works in optics today plagiarising from the Indians?

 

[Arsalan]

Are Palestinians Westerners? Because my buddy now has his MD and is set for a good life in America - a country he loves. He still loves Palestine but he also loves America.

Can you imagine if he were taxed because he is Muslim? Or he was told he could not become a doctor because he was Muslim? What kind of f*cked up system would that be?

He is still taxed isnt he? the reason that there are different systems of tax is because tax for Muslims is Zakat and it is a fundamental article of faith. But you cannot force non-Muslims to adhere to an article of faith of Islam because then you would be complaining that Muslims are forcing them to convert or Islam is being forced on them. That is why for nonMuslims, the tax has a different name, but it remains tax nonetheless. The only difference being that this tax isnt a fundamental article of faith in Islam

He also believes in the flat earth theory.

Oh dear. Michael dont tell me you're the webmaster of this contraption?

Again, are they in any way the same as Ibn Haythams work? Is everyone who works in optics today plagiarising from the Indians?

or did Einstein plagiarize from the people that went before him? According to Michael: yes.

 

[Michael]

Arsalan, I did read your original post.

I went back and read it again. You seem to suggest that the central message in Islam says that any belief, from the Japanese polytheistic Shinto or Greeks or Egyptian Pharaoh worship or Arab polytheism to Aztec polytheistic worship, were indeed legitimately founding by real Prophets from Allah. Therefor these are legitimate beliefs and should be respected accordingly.

That is as I understood your definition of Islamic Universalism.

So, I'm unclear as to a couple of things.

What about new beliefs -
You said Bahai' faith should be respected but then you turn around and say their founder was false. Could you elaborate.

Also, I was unclear as to you stance on CoS and their belief in Xenu.

Lastly, as "Islamic" Universalism accepts all peoples beliefs as legitimate (well maybe) then why delineate people of the book from people not of the book? Why tax a Buddhist for not being a Muslim? Why discriminate and refuse a Christian from certain employment opportunities?

The tax along suggests you are being an Islamic apologist, which is fine and good, but your not really explaining in detail enough.

Thanks,
Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

The Buddhist is not taxed for not being a Muslim, both are taxed, the Muslim tax is a compulsion of faith (zakat), the Buddhist is taxed because there is no country in which people who reside in the country are not taxed.

Are US residents taxed even though they are not citizens? Why?

 

[Michael]

The question then becomes: Who did Mao pray to? This is a typical excuse from Atheists when faced with the evils committed by Atheist leaders.

No let me say here and now. Atheist leaders as individuals can be as much an evil arse hole as the next person. Being atheist doesn't imply that the person is a good individual. Just as being theist doens't imply that the person is a good or bad individual. I personally think that separation of fantasy belief from State run institutions is a good thing for highly civilized people. That doesn't mean it's good for everyone. Perhaps some civilizations are better managed by Allah appointed kings and queens or Imams and Smurfs. I don't know.

I do know I don't want Xenu theology blended with my constitution. And frankly, it doesn't need to be.

BUT, perhaps in the future? Who knows? Maybe mankind will need Xenu because civil institutions have collapsed? I really can't say. I can say for today - I don't need it.

Last point - Again, yes, atheist leaders can be wicked evil individuals just like anyone else and to summarize separation of Scifi from state institutions is good for my civilization but may not be for someone else's.


MII