Our attitude concerning mockery of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon

S.A.M. said:
The Renaissance is the European equivalent of the Islamic Age. Except that Islam brought the renaissance to the Middle East and Europe had to shake out of religion to get there. But still, they never did learn the lesson well, as the colonial age, two world wars and the holocaust amply demonstrate
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The Islamic Age is the Chinese equivalent of the Mongolian Age. Nomadic Herdsmen go and conquer the hard won, worked and built land of their civilized neighbors and then claim all of the people there are Muslim and any further advancements they make as Qur'an inspired "Islamic" Age.

It should be noted that after the Mongols conquered China, killing an estimated 80 million people (the Chinese had just had a census) that China then entered what is referred to by most people as the Chinese Golden Age (this being named after the place where the people lived that made the Golden Age possible). A few people probably refer to this period as the Shaman Age and then credit Shamnism for kicking off the Chinese Golden Age.

It should also be noted the Arab nomades only handed out sweets and everyone dropped their religion, decided they were "Arabs" and took up the advanced language of their conquers because the sweets were oh so yummy.
 
Are there Islamic Church of Scientology?

Is Calculus Christian Math?

Chinese Golden Age or Shaman Golden Age?
 
When was the Russian Age? I always loved Russian literatute, architecture, art. I guess they owe it to:scratchin: The people who lived there.:eek:
 
John99 said:
When was the Russian Age? I always loved Russian literatute, architecture, art. I guess they owe it to:scratchin: The people who lived there.:eek:
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Must be part of the European Renaissance, oh wait, I mean Christian Renaissance - as Russians and Germans and Italians etc.. were Xians. One could argue that this Xian Golden Age is still occuring. From the 14th century on through to the 20th the Xians have continued to lead the world in everything from math and philosophy to medicine and engineering. Dark Age Islamic India and Middle East are so lucky - maybe we'll kick start their own little renaissance and they can thank good old Christianity for having a chance to fly to the moon. Iraq = Sweets and Candies.... we'll take a look 800 years later and see how it all turns out.
 
It's true that many muslims today and in the past have taken credit for non-islamic discoveries. However, the Renaissance came about when European merchants travelled to islamic countries and studied their mathematics and science. Much of the ancient Greek and Roman knowledge was destroyed during the Dark Ages, and the muslims in a sense served as the caretakers of this knowledge during that period, as well as further advancing it.

Algebra is an arabic word, and the Europeans took algebra and advanced it to a level never before achieved, which led to many great accomplishments. The very foundation of the Renaissance was the recognition that an idea in itself can be a good thing, even if you originally learned it from your most hated enemy.

So I say the muslims deserve much credit for the advances they made during their golden age, but they should not seek to take credit for those discoveries that were made by others during their own respective golden ages.
 
I dont mean to imply that valuable contributions have not originated From the Middle East so I agree with you there. I dont think the ability to create lies with any one specific people.

I think what we call the European Renaissance did begin in Italy and was responsible for it spreading to various parts of Europe. This was toward the end of the Crusades so i think that has something to do with your original statement. The art alone was equally as inspirational as scientific discoveries or ideas.

Do you believe that Japan after WW2 up until present day has gone through a Renaissance? The term alone is very much associated with Europe but somewhat eaqual to it except more focused and less broad in terms of substituting art for technology. I would include Germany but Germany is more dependant and tied into the whole of Europe or at the very least associated with all of Europe.

Edit: When i imply of a modern day Japanes Renaissance i mean as much as possible in modern times where technology and advancements are more international.
 
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The irony is astonishing. The Muslim scientists developed citation and made sure that everyone knew the sources they referred to. The "enlightened" renaissance took credit for everything themselves, without once referring to a single Muslim scientist. Its only now, after the so-called enlightenment, when people have realised the contribution of Muslims. And yet, even now they still blame the Muslims or doubt their contributions, with a scepticism not once shown to the plagiarists who took their work without referring to them.
 
I will agree that people living in the ME, some of whom may have been Muslim, advanced science, math, philosophy. Just as they had before Islam they did during Islam and would do after Islam or if there never was an Islam. That's the case will all civilizations.

RE: Preservation. This is interesting. Muslims conquer Egypt, loot their warehouse (aka monasteries) and then are lauded as the preservation of the works therein? It should also be noted that it was of course Jewish and Xian monks that translated the Greek, Roman and Byzantine works, if anyone preserved it, it was them. Maybe once Iraq settles down and accepts their new masters we can look at what left and thank the USA for preserving whatever that is.

The Italians did trade with the Eastern and Western Empires. They became rich. They had a Republic and a strong mercantile class. They used their wealth wisely and funded science and art.

The people that "sparked" the Italian Renaissance were Italian painters. If you take a look at Italian paintings from that era you'll find they don't really resemble middle eastern painting. Just take a painting of Mohammad from Persia (which one would assume would be the top work from the period) and sit it side by side with an Italian painting. The two styles are completely different. Compare ancient Greek sculpture with Middle Eastern "Islamic" Gold Age sculptures. Again, they just do not compare.

The Italian Renaissance has more to do with a revival of Italian culture which was never completely lost was a bounce back from a small ice age induced wave of Germanic invasions and the plague.



I wonder, if the Mongols preserved some Chinese treasures are the heralded as the Great Preservers of Chinese civilization? No. BUT, following the conquests of the Mongols China enters it's Golden Age. Was this due to Shamanism? No.

Well, I simply apply similar logic to Arabs conquering the great Persian and Byzantine empires.
 
^^^ thats a good example. Only believes in sources that confirm his views.

Islam was not however a simple retransmitter of knowledge from antiquity. It also developed its own sciences, such as algebra, chemistry, geology, spherical trigonometry, etc. which were later transmitted to the West.[8][9] Stefan of Pise translated into Latin around 1127 an Arab manual of medical theory. The method of algorism for performing arithmetic with Indian-Arabic numerals was developed by al-Khwarizmi (hence the word “Algorithm”) in the 9th century, and introduced in Europe by Leonardo Fibonacci (1170-1250).[10] A translation of the Algebra by al-Kharizmi is known as early as 1145, by a certain Robert of Chester. Ibn al-Haytham (Alhazen, 980-1037) compiled treaties on optical sciences, which were used as references by Newton and Descartes. Medical sciences were also highly developed in Islam as testified by the Crusaders, who relied on Arab doctors on numerous occasions. Joinville reports he was saved in 1250 by a “Saracen” doctor.[11]

Contributing to the growth of European science was the major search by European scholars for new learning which they could only find among Muslims, especially in Islamic Spain and Sicily. These scholars translated new scientific and philosophical texts from Arabic into Latin.

One of the most productive translators in Spain was Gerard of Cremona, who translated 87 books from Arabic to Latin,[12] including Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī's On Algebra and Almucabala, Jabir ibn Aflah's Elementa astronomica,[13] al-Kindi's On Optics, Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Kathīr al-Farghānī's On Elements of Astronomy on the Celestial Motions, al-Farabi's On the Classification of the Sciences,[14] the chemical and medical works of Razi,[15] the works of Thabit ibn Qurra and Hunayn ibn Ishaq,[16] and the works of Arzachel, Jabir ibn Aflah, the Banū Mūsā, Abū Kāmil Shujā ibn Aslam, Abu al-Qasim, and Ibn al-Haytham (including the Book of Optics).[12]
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S.A.M. said:
The irony is .... The Muslim scientists ...referring to a single Muslim scientist .... contribution of Muslims.
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Yeah, this is a problem. There are SCIENTISTS and there are NON-SCIENTISTS. There are people who are Muslim and Xian and Xenu and Shaman and Hindu and some are SCIENTIST.

Yeah, some people who were in the middle east and Muslim made contribution to science. AS the people had before Islam and as they would have continued to do if there never was an Islam. That's a simple fact.

Americans are by far Xian we don't refer to the Xian Century but the American Century. European were by far Xian. We don't refer to the Xian Renaissance but the European Renaissance.

Like I said, Xian Calculus? Shaman Golden Age? Islamic Churches of Scientology?
 
Some more:

The Islamic Golden Age from the 8th century to the 13th century witnessed a fundamental transformation in agriculture known as the Arab Agricultural Revolution,[1] Medieval Green Revolution,[2][3] or Muslim Agricultural Revolution.[4] The global economy established by Arab and other Muslim traders across the Old World, enabled the diffusion of many crops and farming techniques among different parts of the Islamic world, as well as the adaptation of crops and techniques from and to regions beyond the Islamic world. Crops from Africa such as sorghum, crops from China such as citrus fruits, and numerous crops from India such as mangos, rice, and especially cotton and sugar cane, were distributed throughout Islamic lands, which previously had not grown these crops.[1] Some writers have referred to the diffusion of numerous crops during this period as the Globalization of crops.[5] These introductions, along with an increased mechanization of agriculture (see Industrial growth below), led to major changes in economy, population distribution, vegetation cover,[6] agricultural production and income, population levels, urban growth, the distribution of the labour force, linked industries, cooking, diet and clothing in the Islamic world
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Bascially only Muslims refer to Muslim Scientists. Chinese Tao don't do it. Japanese Shinto don't do it. Indian Hindu's don't do it. Xian European don't do it. We don't refer to polytheistic golden age for Greeks we say Greek Golden Age, the same for Romans, Egyptians etc... we don't say Zoroastrian Golden Age, we say Persian.

I think it comes back to this: What is the central unique message in Islam? What makes Islam a unique and enlightening philosophy? I recently asked a Muslim what the main message in Islam is. He simply said this: Mohammad is the Last Prophet. That's the main message. Everything else re-revealed.
 
SAM,

Are there Islamic Churches of Scientology? Or only Islamic Math?

I'm seriously curious,
Michael
 
Actually, the term Islamic Age is from western scholars, because as they aptly point out North Africa is not Arab, neither are the Persians or Turks or Moors. Islamic is an umbrella term that covers all these peoples in that time frame.
 
Islam was not however a simple retransmitter of knowledge from antiquity. It also developed its own sciences, such as algebra, chemistry, geology, spherical trigonometry, etc. which were later transmitted to the West.[8][9] Stefan of Pise translated into Latin around 1127 an Arab manual of medical theory. The method of algorism for performing arithmetic with Indian-Arabic numerals was developed by al-Khwarizmi (hence the word “Algorithm”) in the 9th century, and introduced in Europe by Leonardo Fibonacci (1170-1250).[10] A translation of the Algebra by al-Kharizmi is known as early as 1145, by a certain Robert of Chester. Ibn al-Haytham (Alhazen, 980-1037) compiled treaties on optical sciences, which were used as references by Newton and Descartes. Medical sciences were also highly developed in Islam as testified by the Crusaders, who relied on Arab doctors on numerous occasions. Joinville reports he was saved in 1250 by a “Saracen” doctor.
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But that is precisely what the last few pages have been based on. Did you get that from an Islamic web site? The reason i ask is because Islamic i s the first word whereas Arab is used later on. So basically it is how you look at things.
 
We've been over this many times. Yes, people from the middle east, some of whom were muslim did add advancements to civilization - just as they had done pre-Islam for 5000 years. Also notable is Spain, presumably these people were "European" (some of whom where muslim) made great strides in sciences and optics.



So, if the central message in the Qur'an is that it is a Universal open belief system then I had a couple questions:

What about New Beliefs?

Arsalan said Bahai' faith should be respected but then turned around and said their founder was false. I would like this elaborated on because it seems juxtaposed to the position of Universalism.

I was unclear as to the Muslim stance on CoS and belief in Xenu.

If "Islamic" Universalism accepts all beliefs as legitimate (well maybe) then why delineate people of the book from people not of the book? This also seems counter to "Universalism".
 
Perhaps you should look at what People of the Book actually means. The rest is hyperbole. You can twist is as you like.
 
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