On God & Coffee

[jayleew]

The answer is there is no free choice – there is only what will happen, that’s it.
If what you say is true, and that we are puppets only thinking we have free will, does it matter to the puppet?


I’m not sure if this makes sense. And why are you saying “probable” it either IS known or IS NOT known. When you say probable, you can only be in the IS NOT known group.


If it is known, then yes- - there will be no other choice than to do what will be done. Sort of like puppetry really. The puppet may “think” it’s moving freely, but really that freedom is an illusion. There is no choice for the puppet, it can not deviate of it’s own volition. So it has no freedom at all.

In the same sense, you may think you made a decision – but really there is only ONE decision that CAN be made. If God knows it, and God is not wrong – then you CAN NOT make ANY other decision. You MUST make the ONLY decision that is POSIIBLE – and that is the known one.

Therefore, choice is an illusion, as there is no alternative option.

It only doesn’t make sense if you cling to the notion of free-will. If you abandon the notion of free-will and accept that there is no free-will and that you are a puppet in God’s play, then everything is perfectly fine.

But, yes, if you believe in free-will and also believe in an omniscient God, well then, no that doesn’t make sense.

Well, I have not decided one way or another, nor does it really matter to me. I have offered the best answer that I could with the story of Moses, which is evidence that God's omniscience is questionable (if you believe in God at all).

 

[jayleew]

Lori_7, you mentioned Truth, I will agree, this is about truth.

But how do we get at this truth? Well, using emotions and feelings gave some truths over the ages – but really that method lead to a lot of speculative untruths as well. Did you know that when some people hear voices in their head –it’s because they have a chemical imbalance. You see, in the past they were told that they communed with God or were possessed with spirits/devil. We now know they are genetically low on dopamine and/or receptors – among others. And now can give to some of them a medicine that will make the voices leave.

Is the chemical imbalance simply a means to an end? Just as you say, we observed the cause of the behavior and labeled the condition and provide medication to correct the imbalance. My question is it the spirits and devils who cause a chemical imbalance as a by product of possession? There is only one case that I can think of that would say yes. Jesus came across an individual who would in today's world, probably would be in an institution and under medication. Jesus told the demons to flee and they did, leaving the boy with a chemically balanced brain because the demons had fled. When we observe God's miracles and Satan's handiwork and label it, we (in arrogance) presume that it is not spiritual in nature in the name of logic and science. But just because our perception of the condition is changed, does that actually change the condition as possessed or spoken to (spiritual in nature)?

That’s Truth Lori_7.

What is truth? There is only perception. Does a dropped ball merely fall to our feet? Take a look at the same action from the space station and you will perceive a different reality. There is ONE reality, but can we ever truly know it?

And to get at this Truth we need a yard stick – that’s called logic. And then we need a process to utilize this concept called logic – that’s called the scientific method.


So with all this in mind, and your assertion that SOME PEOPLE, presumably others than yourself, like to believe what they like to believe - can you tell me:

Is your God both omniscient and omnipotent? That is: Can your God know all and do anything?

Thanks
Michael

Try to have a relationship with your wife using logic. It is unwise to put complete faith in logic or science, both of which (because of the nature of them) are not worthy of complete trust as they have track record of changing its perception with new information and abandoning what was the truth before. What is truth? The truth is that there is only perception until we are omniscient ourselves (if ever we will be). It is premature to come to any conclusion concerning this life. Would you decide your whole fate on the progress of the last 200-300 years? What is that compared to eternity? How can we know anything? We are an arrogant people and we will be shown one way or another and humbled by something, someone, or some being.

Some things, you just need to know. Emotions, gut feelings, the things that make us human defies logical reasoning. If you wish to label the abnormal behavior, you destroy what makes us beautiful and unique. Instead, we become mechanical and unliving objects that respond to influences be it chemical or otherwise. That is not a perspective I wish to take on any account, God or not.

Perhaps that is why God was created. Or was he? What is your perception? Is it the right perception? We will never know the truth of the universe without viewing it from outside the universe. For all we know, we could be in a universe like in Men In Black, just a marble played with by larger beings. It is too soon to put your marbles in a basket, until then I am on the safe side in the hope of a happily ever after.

 

[Lori_7]

The doc said that I was probably just having a "manic episode".

So, the doctor assumes you have bipolar disorder. That's one opinion. You should continue seeking professional help.

But also said that if that was how I "healed myself", maybe it wasn't such a bad thing.

I seriously doubt a doctor, who just diagnosed you with bipolar disorder, would say such a thing.

Anyways, we now know you have bipolar disorder and are not really seeing or hearing gods, but merely your own hallucinations and voices in your head.

One episode does not a disorder make. And that's why I was diagnosed with no such thing because I have no such thing. I have one pole, and it's Jesus, and that's not going to change one bit. Believe what you want to believe, what I'm telling you is the truth.

 

[(Q)]

And that's why I was diagnosed with no such thing because I have no such thing.

Deny it all you want, but you have a disorder, that is a fact.

And since it is now clear that your disorder has resulted in god fantasies, there is nothing more to discuss with you. Seek professional help. Toodles.

 

[Lori_7]

You're the one in denial, disorder-boy. Good luck with that.

 

[jayleew]

We all suffer from some psychological problem. Party on!

 

[fahrenheit 451]

no not all, just some.
party on too

 

[SnakeLord]

And that's why I was diagnosed with no such thing because I have no such thing.

You're crossing over into my territory. I don't know all that much about you but I would be inclined to say there are some serious concerns and issues that need to be attended to. Might I inquire what tests were done and by whom?

 

[MaMaPyCb]

You're the one in denial, disorder-boy. Good luck with that.

I'm not in Denial, and IF I was I would just ignore it and it would go away!

......... Oh wait Im not Disorder-Boy......

IS that Denial?

............hmmmm.........

Anyhoo, Its Me Justin, Just saying HI!!!

~ MaMaPyCb

 

[Lori_7]

Hi Justin! Welcome! That was fast...isn't this place cool?

 

[cato]

Try to have a relationship with your wife using logic. It is unwise to put complete faith in logic or science, both of which (because of the nature of them) are not worthy of complete trust as they have track record of changing its perception with new information and abandoning what was the truth before.

"Where ignorance is bliss, 'Tis folly to be wise."-Thomas Gray
you are right, logic and love don't really go together. however, at what point do you decide to live like an animal because it makes you feel better? why don't you do drugs? religion is, after all, an opiate of the masses (to paraphrase Marx)

Emotions, gut feelings, the things that make us human defies logical reasoning

you are wrong, logic and objectivity make us human. acting on instincts and feelings makes us animals.

It is unwise to put complete faith in logic or science, both of which (because of the nature of them) are not worthy of complete trust as they have track record of changing its perception with new information and abandoning what was the truth before.

wrong again, you have to take everything with a grain of salt. science is a fluid, we take in all the information we can get, see what it tells us, and then act accordingly. as new information comes in, things change, thats the nature of science. science is self correcting. it may take a long time to correct its self, or maybe it will be way off base, but it will always lead closer, perhaps asymptotically, to the truth. that is something religion can never claim, it is either exactly right or wrong, and since there are a near infinite number of ways to be wrong, and only one way to be right, it is foolish have such faith in it.

 

[Michael]

Let me first ask you this...have you ever known anyone who spoke in tongues? If the answer is yes, would you be specific as to the nature of your relationship?

A close friend of mine, who I have known for a couple of decades began speaking in tongues when he was in his early 20’s. I, of course don’t believe in speaking in tongues, but he sure does. I do remember he had some panic attacks when we were in HighSchool. Maybe there's a connection?

"Runs in the blood"? What kind of inbred, appalachian mf'ers have you been talking to?

lol

I suppose that it's possible that there is some genetic aptitude or predisposition for it,

???

Are you saying that mental instabilities are not genetically inherited?



I’m sorry for your Ex Lori_7, and perhaps the medicine is making him into a "zombie".
Just because a mental disease can be diagnosed doesn’t mean it can be treated effectively.

and that nothing is impossible with Him.

Nothing aye??

Can He cease to exist?
Can He forget things?
Can He make a mistake?

Mosses and God were walking along one day.
Mosses: God can you do anything?
God: YES my son, I am all powerful and can do anything.
Mosses: Do you know everything?
God: YES my son, I am the alpha and the omega I know all.. from the dawn of time until its end.
Mosses: So if I ask you to do something you will be able to do it?
God: Yes my son, as I said, I can do ALL.
Mosses: If you can do what I ask, then zap the left bush with lightning, if you can not do what I ask then zap the right bush with lightning.
God: No worries mate. **cough cough** I mean, yes my child, all things are possible with God, I mean, me.

God raises his left hand into the air and Mosses writes what he wants God do onto some papyri.

God: Why you little insolent %&%$@ and smites Mosses there on the spot.

Paper: God zaps the right bush!

Isn't it a bit unusual that this seizure's only symptom is this altered "language"? You're a doctor...aren't most seizures multi-symptomed, and the affects of which much less "structured"? I mean, we're talking about drooling, kicking, screaming, contorting, swallowing your tongue. Even if you call it incoherent babbling, everything else about the person seems to be ask while it's happening. It's obvious that they're in control of themselves very well, accept of course, for the babbling.

Different medical conditions lead to different clinical symptoms, some people ONLY have the seizure in the temporal lobe and this ONLY activates the speech center causing the person to babble.

I know atheists that have temporal lobe seizures and they uncontrollably babble as well. I also know a Buddhists who’s whole family is convinced her Aunti's talking-in-tongues (temporal lobe seizure) is her comuning with the dead (coming from China they of corce have a non-Christian explanation.

Hmmm Lori, what do you think it is for her? Devils? Temporal lobe seizures? Spirits? Buddha? God? Jesus? Allah? Mohhamed? A Shinto Water God visiting China on vacation from Japan?



SO what can explain all uncontrolled babbling? The Simplest answer is usually the correct, which is - temporal lobe seizures.

And these are self-induced seizures right? Because it's obvious that the people "afflicted" with them get to pick and choose where and when they have them, and at their convenience. Don't you think that's a little odd? Ok, where are we...genetically predisposition to have self-induced seizures...what?

The triggering mechanisms are not known. However, I would imagine that it could be pavlovian (classically conditioned).

For example, we'll go back to my Chinese friend’s Aunti. She used to have them often and uncontrollable. But, after becoming a "medium", she seems to be fine with having these seizures once a week as she “channels” dead sprits. And she does it for free!! Maybe that's enough for her brain and she's fine for another week? I really don't know.

Oh yea, seizures that are not only related to or caused by any specific health problem or illness, but also apparently have no detrimental mental or physical affects on the body. Certainly this is rare too right? Don't most seizures cause brain damage? Damage whose severity depends upon the intensity and duration of the seizure? Well, you would assume that a seizure that would cause the kind of behavior that we're talking about, and that I've been witness to many times, would have to be fairly severe. And I've seen it last for a long time. Grandma at a prayer meeting back in the day....she could go in and out for hours. And grandma was smart as a whip and the picture of health until she had a stroke a couple of years ago...at 80 years.

Yes, it affects the temporal lobe. As to side affects, maybe there are none – other than babbling (for some) – which is probably not very harmful. Maybe there are some side effects inside of the brain that we don't know about? It's really hard to say.

In some people, it is other senses that are activate - like the person smells chocolate. Which makes sense - as the seizure may be activting that center for that person.

Or does God bless some people with the smell of chocolate once a week???

It's obvious, the simplest answer is neural activation via a seizure.

So, we've got this weird, and of course undocumented, genetic disorder, which causes the ability or predisposition to have self-induced seizures, whose only symptom is a very specific and controlled babble, and that are not related to or a symptom of any other illness or condition, and do not cause any detrimental physical or mental affect on the person who has them.

Interesting.

yes it is interesting, and is somewhat studied, and occurs in all cultures, and has been used by religous cults for thousadns of years (before Chrsitiantiy) and can even be measured in a laboratory:
Striking EEG profiles from single episodes of glossolalia and transcendental meditation

 

[Michael]

A>B
B>C
Conclusion: A>C

Sorry beyondtimeandspace, you’ll have to be a little more straight forward:

According to your definition of learning, was it “passive” or “active” learning when you "learned" to read, write, and speak in English?

Do you know how to say “Good Morning” in Japanese? How about “University”? Can you write in Kanji? When you “learn” those things, are they active learning or passive learning?

Beyondtimeandspace, do you ever make a mistake?

Do you ever forget? For example: If I say, what were you thinking on January 13th from 1:30PM to 8:53AM – could you recall each and every thought?

Can you be confused?

Can you be stumped – say by a high level mathematical problem?

Ever change your mind based on an experience you had?
Lets think about this: Does your mind change with your experience?
What does that question mean?

Obviously, all knowing God can not have a mind? Minds think. That’s their function. God’s would only “know”.

Thinking is a process whereby you consider some information and come to “new” conclusion.

A mind that knows everything, can not, think. It can only know. Much like a hard-drive. As a matter of fact – if God “knows all” it would have to BE the universe itself, to hold ALL of the information about all placements of all matter – a NON THINKING Universe. So if God is a non-thinking universe, well, that’s atheism, isn’t it?


Therefore, to believe in an all knowing God is be an atheist.

Michael

 

[Michael]

What is truth? There is only perception. Does a dropped ball merely fall to our feet? Take a look at the same action from the space station and you will perceive a different reality. There is ONE reality, but can we ever truly know it?

I don’t think so. But, it can be fun trying to. And I would say that the scientific method is the best chance we have at finding it.\

What is the truth about glossolalia? Is it as I contend, the side effect of a temporal lobe seizure? Or is it the Holy Ghost? Or is it Buddha? Or a Shinto God on vacation in China?

I think, the scientific method holds the best hope of getting to the truth of it. Don't you?

 

[Lori_7]

You're crossing over into my territory. I don't know all that much about you but I would be inclined to say there are some serious concerns and issues that need to be attended to. Might I inquire what tests were done and by whom?

A medical doctor talked to me a bit and wrote a prescription for an mri, which was at the request of my parents.

My dad suggested that I talk to a psychologist at first, if I wanted to. I didn't want to...there's nothing "wrong" with me. I explained to him that I was happier and healthier than I had ever been, and not addicted for the first time since I was a kid. He agreed that it didn't seem appropriate at all to send me to a shrink, considering the fact that all of the changes in my life as a result of this miracle have been positive. Then again, what I'm testifying to sounds crazy...I know. So we agreed that I would go only if I "came down" from my manic episode, as the doctor suggested, and became depressed, self destructive, suicidal, whatever.

Looking back, in some ways I wish that I had talked to someone last year, while this was all going on. It would have been an excellent way to document the details of what was happening to me. I just did not want someone diagnosing me "crazy". I don't think my ego could handle it. I've always been the golden child...the smart one...the capable one. Having people consider me a nut case is something that I am definitely not used to, and don't like one bit. It was more than that too. I was afraid that they would want to prescribe something, and there was no way in hell I was going to take any drugs. I had just gotten off of drugs for the first time in 21 years, ironically enough, because of the miracle that testifying to would warrant a prescription. The thought of which was absurd to me. There was just no way I was taking anything.

So, are you talking about psychological tests?

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

Sorry beyondtimeandspace, you’ll have to be a little more straight forward:

According to your definition of learning, was it “passive” or “active” learning when you "learned" to read, write, and speak in English?

Do you know how to say “Good Morning” in Japanese? How about “University”? Can you write in Kanji? When you “learn” those things, are they active learning or passive learning?

Passive. If you are learning your native language (presumably as a child), all that's happening is that your mind is recording data association. We know especially that when one is learning a native language that it is passive because it is done during a time in your life when rationality hasn't yet been developed. As for second, third, fourth, etc, languages are being learned, the learning part is passive. The mental activity of deduction and association can be reproduced AFTER something has already been learned. The mental activity of deduction and association produces the passive effect of learning.

Beyondtimeandspace, do you ever make a mistake?

Do you ever forget? For example: If I say, what were you thinking on January 13th from 1:30PM to 8:53AM – could you recall each and every thought?

I thought the question was whether there was something I can do that God cannot. These two questions pertain to activities that I'm unable to perform. The first, pertains to my inability to produce the effect that I desired or intended by my action, perfectly, each and every single time. My inability, of course, originating from either my lack of knowledge, or my lack of control, or both. The second, pertains to my inability to recall precisely each and every event from each and every moment of my life, despite that that information is stored in my own brain. You see, these two questions don't ask about actions that I CAN do that God can't, but rather, it asks about actions that I can't do, that God can.

Can you be confused?

Can you be stumped – say by a high level mathematical problem?

These two questions refer to states of being, not action.

Ever change your mind based on an experience you had?
Lets think about this: Does your mind change with your experience?
What does that question mean?

Obviously, all knowing God can not have a mind? Minds think. That’s their function. God’s would only “know”.

Thinking is a process whereby you consider some information and come to “new” conclusion.

You're right about this, God does not think, God simply 'knows.' The conclusion you draw, however, is NOT true. You conclude that since one doesn't think, one doesn't have a mind. This is not true at all. I don't know if I've stated in this thread, or if it was in another, but I have said that God is not relegated to the temporal, that God is eternal, and that God is actually infinite, rather than potentially infinite. Temporality, and Potential Infinity, both refer to sequential processes. The temporal refers to time, which is a sequenced movement from event to event, potential infinity refers to an endless sequenced procession toward actual infinity, which is a whole set. God functions holistically, not sequentially. Both processes can be observed in the physical universe, both processes can be observed of the mind. One hemisphere of our brain functions sequentially, while the other functions holistically. This is the basic difference between logic and intuition, science and art, philosophy and religion. Yet, both are functions of the cognitive sections of the brain. Just because one does not think (which implies sequence of thought), doesn't mean that one has no mind, no awareness, no consciousness. All it means is that instead of a sequenced awareness, such a one has an holistic awareness. Such is the case with God. God's mind is holistic, God's experience is holistic, God's knowledge is holistic, God, essentially, is a holistic being. Our interactions with God take place at different moments from our perspective, but in God's perspective, our interactions occur all at once.

A mind that knows everything, can not, think. It can only know. Much like a hard-drive. As a matter of fact – if God “knows all” it would have to BE the universe itself, to hold ALL of the information about all placements of all matter – a NON THINKING Universe. So if God is a non-thinking universe, well, that’s atheism, isn’t it?


Therefore, to believe in an all knowing God is be an atheist.

Michael

I don't see the connection between God knowing all and because of this God must therefore be the universe. It's not an idea I haven't heard before, but God knowing all isn't a premise that necessitates the conclusion that God is the universe.

 

[(Q)]

I just did not want someone diagnosing me "crazy".

Bipolar disorder is not crazy.

And instead of getting professional help, for which you appear to think that you know better than the doctors, you instead allowed your hallucinations and voices in your head to take control of your decision making process, which you decided was a miracle from god. And now here you are. Please, seek professional help.

 

[Lori_7]

I just did not want someone diagnosing me "crazy".

Bipolar disorder is not crazy.

And instead of getting professional help, for which you appear to think that you know better than the doctors, you instead allowed your hallucinations and voices in your head to take control of your decision making process, which you decided was a miracle from god. And now here you are. Please, seek professional help.

Why? So I can appease your flippin' ego. Your sentiment sucks Q. You're not a psychologist and you don't know me, so shut the fuck up already.

 

[azizbey]

let me CLOSE this argument once and for all...
God's knowing about your future actions doesnt mean that you are manipulated or you are not responsible just because He knew beforehand
lets tape today's baseball game and watch it tomorrow. you definitely know whats gonna happen in the 9th inning and the final score. does it mean that you affected the result just because you KNEW?
since time and space, before/after dependency do not apply to God, he knows everything before you do with your own free will.
otherwise it would be ridiculous for the western religions to say God knows everything and offer hell and heaven for the things we have done.

God's knowledge of the events is nothing more than fastforwarding the time.and you are responsible for everything you do
hope this help you to understand our dependency to space/time, and our logic "sometimes" trapped in it
best regards

 

[(Q)]

Why? So I can appease your flippin' ego.

No, you need professional help, that is a fact.