On God & Coffee

[Michael]

I am saying that God knows every single choice you make. For God, there is no 'will make,' or 'have made.' For God, there is only, 'are making.'

God experiences what is called the eternal present. He does not experience temporal change, nor movement. All events occur simultaneously, not simply in God's perspective, but as His reality. All is a single point. For me to say "God knows I'm going to do this" is false. It is more correct to say, "God knows I am doing this." I can only say that "I know I am doing this" for specific moments in time. If someone who also experiences time were to say "I know you're going to do this," then perhaps we may speak of predetermination. Not so of God. This is because of the nature of God as not experiencing temporality. There are time frames ahead of me, and there are time frames behind me. At the moment that I exist at present, all the past has been determined. The future, at this moment, is indeterminate. Whatever choices I make in the future, I make freely willing, and that future will only be determined when that point in time becomes the present. When we speak of God's knowledge, we're speaking about something that cannot be spoken of in terms of temporality. Suffice it to say, God knows, because of our choice, OUR CHOICE.

Yes, I think I see where you are coming from.
BUT, can you (or anyone), in a simple YES or NO ONLY answer this question:

Do I have the freedom to do anything other than what God know's I'll do??

 

[antifreeze]

what about the people who don't believe in god?

but the short answer is no. if god knows you will do it then, by virtue of the assumption that your god is omniscient and infallible, you will do it. freedom is not an issue, it is the wording of the question.

 

[Bells]

Damn you people!

You've even gone so far as to involve religion in a cup of coffee!


Antifreeze, I thought the same thing. I don't believe in God.. therefore should I ask if my subconscious will know that I am about to have a cup of coffee even if I haven't even thought of coffee as yet?

Speaking of which... mmm coffeeeee...

 

[Michael]

what about the people who don't believe in god?

but the short answer is no. if god knows you will do it then, by virtue of the assumption that your god is omniscient and infallible, you will do it. freedom is not an issue, it is the wording of the question.

Why, thank you antifreeze - anymore YES or NO answers.

Followed by two clicks of the return-key and a short rebuttal.

 

[Lori_7]

Damn you people!

You've even gone so far as to involve religion in a cup of coffee!


Antifreeze, I thought the same thing. I don't believe in God.. therefore should I ask if my subconscious will know that I am about to have a cup of coffee even if I haven't even thought of coffee as yet?

Speaking of which... mmm coffeeeee...

Decaf for you, toots...

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

The reason that I have thus far now given a simple yes or no answer is that to do so would represent adeception on my part. This is because the question is framed in such a way as to be a trap. The problem is that it's a trap because either answer would represent a paradox (seeming contradiction). I assure you, that though my answer is paradoxical, it is not contradictory.

You ask, "Do I have the freedom to do anything other than what God know's I'll do?" I propose a change to the question, "Do I have the freedom to do anything other than what God knows I am doing?" Essentially this question asks the same thing. I pose the question like this because this is more proper a question when dealing with God and His interactions with the temporal. The answer should be obvious. Of course you have the freedom to choose to do other than you are doing.

Simply, yes.

As I said, what matters is that you do what you choose to.

 

[Michael]

The reason that I have thus far now given a simple yes or no answer is that to do so would represent adeception on my part. This is because the question is framed in such a way as to be a trap. The problem is that it's a trap because either answer would represent a paradox (seeming contradiction). I assure you, that though my answer is paradoxical, it is not contradictory.

You ask, "Do I have the freedom to do anything other than what God know's I'll do?" I propose a change to the question, "Do I have the freedom to do anything other than what God knows I am doing?" Essentially this question asks the same thing. I pose the question like this because this is more proper a question when dealing with God and His interactions with the temporal. The answer should be obvious. Of course you have the freedom to choose to do other than you are doing.

Simply, yes.

As I said, what matters is that you do what you choose to.

(1)Do you think God knows the future in exact detail?
(2) Or only records present information - onto say a big Godly harddrive in the sky?

 

[Ozymandias]

God knows that you will freely choose to do that. He knows the outcome of every choice you will make, that does not in itself make it an unfree choice.

I have a friend, X. If he were presented with the choice to take either a slap in the face or intercourse with an attractive woman, I know that he would choose intercourse. That does not mean that X is not freely choosing intercourse. God simply knows us and the effect of the environment surrounding our decisions better than we could fathom, so that he knows that you will freely choose
- 123.2134 ml of coffee with
- 5763 grains of sugar and
- 23.64548 ml of milk and
love it, even though you hate sugar with coffee and are a bit lactose intolerant...

Just because your decision can be known does not mean it is not free.

 

[antifreeze]

so i was watching television last night, and i heard this:

Bender: "So, do you know what I'm gonna do before I do it?"
God: "Yes."
Bender: "What if I do something different?"
God: "Then I don't know that."

funny. not really applicable to the question at hand, but funny nonetheless.

 

[jayleew]

Yes, I think I see where you are coming from.
BUT, can you (or anyone), in a simple YES or NO ONLY answer this question:

Do I have the freedom to do anything other than what God know's I'll do??

This is silly, you know the answer.

If there is a God, the Bible shows that God knows what you are thinking at this moment, and can at this very instant can predict the highest probable events in your life in the future provided you don't veer off from where you are right now. I can do that too with my children. I know their hearts and how they will end up today. Does that affect their freewill? Does that mean they will end up how I think they will? Not if freewill has anything to do with it.

Right now, God sees that you like your coffee black and will never take it otherwise again since you have tried it other ways. Will that stop you from putting sugar in your coffee in defiance to yourself and to God? As Cato points out, with an omnipotent God, God would know what you are going to do and thus freewill would be nullified. Now I don't know if God truly knows what we will choose or not, but it doesn't make sense if he does.

This point is not important concerning the faith with me. I will believe either way because I have experienced God. Everyday I doubt him, but he is forever faithful. I pray that I will trust him more to make me a just man like the heroes in the Bible. Someday I will be, so I guess today I am as they were, but I don't feel like it.

 

[spidergoat]

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

1) I think that God knows everything in exact detail.

 

[superluminal]

Me too.

 

[Lori_7]

Aw...how cute!

 

[cato]

...

 

[Lori_7]

...

Not ewe, but ew, that's disturbing.

 

[cato]

how is it disturbing? it is someone beating a dead horse, which is a figure of speech. it means that people are talking about an issue long after it has been resolved.

 

[Lori_7]

Yea, I get it. The figure of speech isn't disturbing, but the little animation is for some reason. Sorry...bleeding heart animal lover here...I'll cry watching a cartoon, no shit.

 

[Michael]

God knows that you will freely choose to do that.

If He knows my every choice, then for all intents and purposes - they are already made. Life must be like watching a movie, rewind or fast-forward, the actions never change.

If that is the case – then I can not deviate from my destiny and therefore, to me, there is no free-will.

He knows the outcome of every choice you will make, that does not in itself make it an unfree choice.

If he knows my every choice then I am not free to do anything other than what he knows I will do, therefore my feeling like I am making a free choice is actually just an illusion – as that really is the ONLY choice.

Just because your decision can be known does not mean it is not free.

Hmmmm……. I think it does mean exactly that, because if my choice is made, then I didn’t actually have a choice.

This is silly, you know the answer.

The answer is there is no free choice – there is only what will happen, that’s it.

If there is a God, the Bible shows that God knows what you are thinking at this moment, and can at this very instant can predict the highest probable events in your life in the future provided you don't veer off from where you are right now.

I’m not sure if this makes sense. And why are you saying “probable” it either IS known or IS NOT known. When you say probable, you can only be in the IS NOT known group.

I know their hearts and how they will end up today. Does that affect their freewill? Does that mean they will end up how I think they will? Not if freewill has anything to do with it.

If it is known, then yes- - there will be no other choice than to do what will be done. Sort of like puppetry really. The puppet may “think” it’s moving freely, but really that freedom is an illusion. There is no choice for the puppet, it can not deviate of it’s own volition. So it has no freedom at all.

In the same sense, you may think you made a decision – but really there is only ONE decision that CAN be made. If God knows it, and God is not wrong – then you CAN NOT make ANY other decision. You MUST make the ONLY decision that is POSIIBLE – and that is the known one.

Therefore, choice is an illusion, as there is no alternative option.

Now I don't know if God truly knows what we will choose or not, but it doesn't make sense if he does.

It only doesn’t make sense if you cling to the notion of free-will. If you abandon the notion of free-will and accept that there is no free-will and that you are a puppet in God’s play, then everything is perfectly fine.

But, yes, if you believe in free-will and also believe in an omniscient God, well then, no that doesn’t make sense.

 

[Michael]

1) I think that God knows everything in exact detail.

Do you also believe that God is omnipotent (able to do anything)?