On God & Coffee
- Thread starter Michael
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Michael said:
I am saying that God knows every single choice you make. For God, there is no 'will make,' or 'have made.' For God, there is only, 'are making.'
God experiences what is called the eternal present. He does not experience temporal change, nor movement. All events occur simultaneously, not simply in God's perspective, but as His reality. All is a single point. For me to say "God knows I'm going to do this" is false. It is more correct to say, "God knows I am doing this." I can only say that "I know I am doing this" for specific moments in time. If someone who also experiences time were to say "I know you're going to do this," then perhaps we may speak of predetermination. Not so of God. This is because of the nature of God as not experiencing temporality. There are time frames ahead of me, and there are time frames behind me. At the moment that I exist at present, all the past has been determined. The future, at this moment, is indeterminate. Whatever choices I make in the future, I make freely willing, and that future will only be determined when that point in time becomes the present. When we speak of God's knowledge, we're speaking about something that cannot be spoken of in terms of temporality. Suffice it to say, God knows, because of our choice, OUR CHOICE.
Michael said:
You are god.
At the deepest level of consciousness you have already chosen what coffee you will have. Which is the same as saying god has already chosen what coffee he will have.
So why use the term god and not just you?
Because at the deepest levels of consciousness, I am you and you are me. We are both god.
We are the outer levels of consciousness that are all connected to the deepest level of consciousness, and we are all (every human) connected at this deeper level because at this deepest level we are all one being.
In other words, there is only one being in existence - God. we are all points of awareness of that one being (us) becoming aware of itself.
beyondtimeandspace: wow, way to go, on avoiding the question.
we all know why, you wont answer it truthfully, it's the same reason everytime, a logical fallacy, is posed to a person of religion, they have to avoid the answer else the beliefs are proven tobe BS.
is your god unknowable?.
we all know why, you wont answer it truthfully, it's the same reason everytime, a logical fallacy, is posed to a person of religion, they have to avoid the answer else the beliefs are proven tobe BS.
is your god unknowable?.
Michael said:
He wouldn't know about it, unless you were going to do it. If you wanted it black, then He would know that too. You have the freedom to drink your own piss if you want to, and He would know about that decision before you made it too.
God knowing what you will choose before you do in no way inhibits your free will to choose whatever you want. If He didn't want you to have a choice, then you wouldn't have one.
This isn't as complicated as you're making it.
lori if a god knows I'm going to commit suicide next thursday. and as you say I have a choice not to, but he already knows I do, firstly I no longer have a choice because I cant choose not to commit suicide, and am I still commiting a sin. as god knows and does not intercede.
if I hav'nt got a choice not to commit suicide, how am I sinning.
if he knows what choice I've made, then as I cant change my mind, it negate my choice.
if I hav'nt got a choice not to commit suicide, how am I sinning.
if he knows what choice I've made, then as I cant change my mind, it negate my choice.
some people say present is just an illusion, that spacetime is like a loaf of sliced bread, and we are just moving from one slice to the next. these are the same people who say that god exists outside of time and hence can see the entirety of the loaf from "beginning to end". these are the same people who say that you are a puppet of god. so, essentially, if god knows you will drink that coffee then you WILL drink that coffee, because you are god's bitch. get it? 
OK, so what if God exists and is observing, and does in fact know which coffee you will choose? Let us suppose that there is no causality implied by this knowledge; God knows what coffee you will have, but does not set the series of events into motion that will end with you choosing that coffee, e.g. you originally choose black coffee and a lemon donut, but the shop is out of lemon donuts and the counter girl (who's new, and stressed about the fact that she thinks she might be pregnant, and is that a zit on her chin?) inadvertently adds cream and sugar to your coffee. Now, God KNEW you would end up with this coffee, not because he has negated free will and is forcing you to choose it, but because God saw how this would play out.
Personally, I think that the "when" where you end up with the cafe au lait rather than the noir is just one of many possible "whens," each of which has a variety of outcomes as determined by slight differences down the chain of events between now and your steaming cup o' joe. God sees these, but I don't think God forces any one of them over the others (which would negate free will).
Just my take on it.
Personally, I think that the "when" where you end up with the cafe au lait rather than the noir is just one of many possible "whens," each of which has a variety of outcomes as determined by slight differences down the chain of events between now and your steaming cup o' joe. God sees these, but I don't think God forces any one of them over the others (which would negate free will).
Just my take on it.
Michael said:
Case and point:
God says he's going to kill the Isrealites and make a new nation of Moses. Moses says don't kill them, or you might as well kill me. God changes his mind and stays his judgement for Moses.
Is there anything you can do to change what God already knows will happen? It is obvious from the story what you can do. That is, if you believe in God and the Bible as his word.
It comes as no surprise that the illogical arguments coming from Christians attempting to put their God in a box that we can examine and explain breeds contempt from atheists. Since I have observed the speech here that is very totalitarian wishing to squelch the ideas be it by banning, killing, or otherwise coming from atheists in regards to questionable arguments, why is it Christians are thought of as the violent/close-minded ones?cato said:
my problem is that people wont listen. if god knows, not guesses, then it must be. end of story. even if god were "outside" time, then it would mean that all events have already been determined. if god can observe all moments, then they are decided, there is no other way. why can't you people get it, once again if god, or anyone else, knows what will happen, then it is inevitable.
can we please move on to something more fruitful, please.
the horse is dead, stop beating it.
can we please move on to something more fruitful, please.
the horse is dead, stop beating it.
These conversations are too random to be of value. Too many posters are willing to go off topic, saying "what if this way...what if that way". This is evidence that humans by their own multiplicitous power are incapable of coming to true knowledge about God.
Where is the desire to come to truth?
There must be established certain truths, perhaps self-evident, that all can agree upon. For example, that somethging cannot be both the same and different at once, or that if there is a God then this being is immortal by definition, or that all men by nature desire to know.
simplistic interpretations of scripture also divert from the real issues at hand.
Only after elemental posits are established then can dialogue be productive of good things.
Where is the desire to come to truth?
There must be established certain truths, perhaps self-evident, that all can agree upon. For example, that somethging cannot be both the same and different at once, or that if there is a God then this being is immortal by definition, or that all men by nature desire to know.
simplistic interpretations of scripture also divert from the real issues at hand.
Only after elemental posits are established then can dialogue be productive of good things.
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ah, but purpose implies creation and creation is not something i am ready to imply.
I am into artificial intelligence
I believe that the present is an effect of its own past and the cause of its own future. We have a set of parameters, these are subjects of "evolution" throughout our entire lives, we are influenced of those we encounter and hence we are reactions of them, and in return we influence them. I consider this deterministic as well since an individual with a specific array of parameters is bound to be at a specific place at a specific time and therefore become influenced (deterministic as well) by another individual or an object even.
I believe that the present is an effect of its own past and the cause of its own future. We have a set of parameters, these are subjects of "evolution" throughout our entire lives, we are influenced of those we encounter and hence we are reactions of them, and in return we influence them. I consider this deterministic as well since an individual with a specific array of parameters is bound to be at a specific place at a specific time and therefore become influenced (deterministic as well) by another individual or an object even.
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