Note for Christians

So basically you mean to say that anyone else who is not of your christian denomination (or the RCC if you're catholic) is wrong? Is that all?

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There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

-central philosophy of Zero, Sage of Chaos
 
"So basically you mean to say that anyone else who is not of your christian denomination............."
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When you say 'your christian denomination', you are implying a posessive nature. I do not HAVE a Christian denomination. I submit to Christian doctrine, derived from scripture. Also, the means and methods of soteriology are clearly demonstrated in the Bible. Many religions deviate from the text of the Bible to satisfy selfish desires, including atheism.

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Alright, so are you saying that anyone who does not follow christian doctrine is wrong, selfish, and false? All nonchristian religions are false ones?

_________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

-central philosophy of Zero, Sage of Chaos
 
"Alright, so are you saying that anyone who does not follow christian doctrine is wrong, selfish, and false?"
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Not me. Jesus said it, many times throughout the Bible.

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Originally posted by inspector
"Alright, so are you saying that anyone who does not follow christian doctrine is wrong, selfish, and false?"
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Not me. Jesus said it, many times throughout the Bible.

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Show me some quotes if you will. I, being an ignorant and filthy unbeliever, lack the skill to find the appropriate meaning in the appropriate quote.

And stop avoiding responsibility for your posts.


_________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

-central philosophy of Zero, Sage of Chaos
 
Cris,

My point is why do we need experts to interpret the bible? Why is the bible so confusing that it takes enormous intellectual ability, endless analysis and study, to be sure of the correct meaning? Surely those with poor education and/or low intelligence stand no chance. Why would such a perfect God create a book that isn? clear to everyone? If he is omnipotent as claimed then he could have created a book that everyone could understand without any confusion.

Satan confuses people. And he works in your mind, while God works through your heart...

We need people to interpret because we have been tricked by Satan for a long time. When we become Christians, we have so much hurt and confusion and illusion in our lives that we need someone to be an intermidiate between God and us to guide us. Without a guide, Satan comes and try to steal your salvation. The Bible seems confusing to you because Satan confuses everything in your mind. Besides that, God ways is above our ways, God wisdom is above our wisdom. It may appear confusing and foolish for you because His wisdom is above yours.

There are many books, in science for example that explain very complex topics in very clear detail so that they cannot be misinterpreted. Why is the bible so imprecise that it leaves itself open to misinterpretation?

It's not imprecise, It's actually very precise. But you must remember that the Bible is a collection of 81 books written by different people in different times. Even the words that people use are different from times to times. You also have to remember that Satan will try to confuse you and make you not believe in what is written.

But my point was not about atheists but other Christians who create alternative interpretations.

I already talked about that. The Catholics, for example, that tried to earn money using the Bible...

I am sure they might well say the same about you. Each Christian sect appears equally convinced it has the true version just like you. Why is your interpretation correct and theirs isn??
Because in the overall it makes sense. When you put everything together, it makes sense. Besides that, the Bible makes it very clear that there are false teachers nowdays, and each false teacher creates his own "Christianism"...

And if all Christian sects believe this then why are there so many interpretations. Can? God make up his mind?

... read inspector's...

BTW what sect do you belong?

Any... or...
Let's say I follow the Gospel of Love...
 
Originally posted by Cris

For example some say the 6th commandment says thou shall not kill while others say it means thou shall not murder.

The difference is fundamental because the first variation supports the Jesus idea of love your enemies and turning the other cheek and vengence being the realm of God. But if it only means no murder then that opens up the option to kill for self-defense and would support wars.

Another issue is the alleged virgin birth where some sects insist she was a virgin whereas others interpret the original text to mean young woman. The issue again raises the issue of whether Jesus was of a divine conception or just another man who was just a rebel.

These seem like key issues to me that dramatically affect the Christian message.

I can quote some more if you like but I think you can probably follow my perspective.

Mary was a virgin and a young woman. From the rest of the Bible, and from Joseph's reaction it was clear that she was a virgin and that Jesus was conceived from the Spirit. It takes a lot of selective reading to make the Bible say otherwise. Joseph wondered whether he should leave her, and since the penalty for having extramarital children was death, he would have had to deny that he was the father as well. By staying with Mary he acknowledged legal paternity, but must have known the real Father.

All new translations use the word 'murder' - as far as I can see only the King James (which was translated from an already Latin translation) use 'kill', but that is not the point. Whether we have the authority to take a life which God has given, is the question. The commandment against murder comes a long way in the Bible. The ten commandments were a culmination and explicit statement of God's will before and since. Consider the following (from the NASV):
Genesis 9:6___
______ _"Whoever sheds man's blood,
__________By man his blood shall be shed,
__________For in the image of God
__________He made man.

James 2:11___For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12_So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
13___For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

So in essence - it does not matter which law you break in the end. If you call someone an idiot, you are not showing any quality of love, and in that sense are no better than a murderer. The Bible doesn't split hairs. But it teaches a freedom which we cannot understand without laws.

Can you give me some more examples that bother you or anyone else?
 
'Truthseeker' and you are starting from the "I am superior and I'm only here to enlighten you all" point.'
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You must realize that Christianity, by definition, says that all other systems are false. It is not that it is "superior" the way you apparently try and connect it with arrogance. It is simply that it is true and saying so doesn't mean we are superior or arrogant in attitude. It is superior because it is true. Jesus, who claimed to be God in flesh (John 8:24,58; 10:30-33; Exod. 3:14, cf, John 20:28; Col. 2:9; Heb. 1:6,8), said that He was the only way to God the Father (John 14:6; Matt. 11:27). We Christians believe Him.

Pride in a person is something God does not want. The attitude of arrogant superiority in a person is not what God wants, either. But, that does not change the fact that Christianity is, by nature, superior to all other systems -- since it alone represents the true God as manifested in Christ. Being true, it is therefore superior by nature, but that does not mean that it is inconsistent with itself since being true does not mean that those who believe it is superior are being prideful. Pride is something in people. Christianity is the historical revelation and manifestation of Jesus who claimed to be God, walked on water, healed people, rose from the dead, etc. This occurred in history. For me to say it is true and to believe it is true over all other systems does not make me arrogant anymore than you, an atheist, believe that your atheism is true, and therefore superior, over all religious systems.

Furthermore, Christianity teaches a Trinitarian God which all other religious systems do not (contra modalism, tritheism, etc). Christianity teaches salvation by grace through faith alone, which all other religious systems do not. Though there are similarities in other systems, Christianity is unique in its scope, evidence, soteriology, and theology. This is one of the problems I have with your argumentation: you say things that are not logically necessary and then proceed to build your case on these alleged points. This is why you are not convincing in your defense of atheism.

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Cris,

My point is why do we need experts to interpret the bible? Why is the bible so confusing that it takes enormous intellectual ability, endless analysis and study, to be sure of the correct meaning? Surely those with poor education and/or low intelligence stand no chance. Why would such a perfect God create a book that isn? clear to everyone? If he is omnipotent as claimed then he could have created a book that everyone could understand without any confusion.

Remember that all the books of the Bible were written thousands of years ago. If you get the original Old Testament written mostly in Hebrew, will you understand it? I don't think so. Even people that study Hebrew nowdays have difficulty in reading the manuscripts as they didn't used to put vowels in the words. Although a system of vowels was later made, in the time when the Bible was written they never wrote any vowels. The vowels would appear in the spoken word. That may seems hard for us, but they were so used with it that it was easy for them.

Greek is another. Most of the New Testament was written in Greek. Almost all words in greek have accents (with the exception of one letter words...). There are many forms of accent. Not very easy to know which one to use... (mainly if you are not used with it...). Besides that, the end of a word changes as the syntax in the sentence changes. In this sense, each word has about 15 forms. You have to know them to read properly in greek.

History is important to create background. If you lived in Jesus's time you would understand things much more easily. You should know the traditions and the culture to understand thing properly. It was pretty easy for them to speak those anciant languages. They even used all of them at the same time! In the houses they used the Aramaic, in the synagogues the Hebrew and in the market the Greek; they knew them all! For example...

Mark 5:25-29

"25 A woman who had had a hemorrhage for twelve years,
26 and had endured much at the hands of many physicians, and had spent all that she had and was not helped at all, but rather had grown worse--
27 after hearing about Jesus, she came up in the crowd behind Him and touched His cloak.
28 For she thought, "If I just touch His garments, I will get well."
29 Immediately the flow of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her affliction. "

You would probably say that it is not big deal to touch someone's "garment". However, if it was a high priest's cloak, it was forbidden to be touched, because of a Jewish law. In this sense, she would be going against the laws of those times, what is not a small thing...

Another thing is the sentence:
"Have faith in God." (as in Mark 6:22)
This means to have faith in what God will do, to trust Him, etc...
However, if you get from the manuscript or an Interlinear Bible, you will read:
"Have faith of God."
Which means to have God's kind of faith!

So, if you really want to read the Bible and get the most of It, my suggestion is to buy:
  • An Interlenear Bible that has the Greek and Hebrew original text in it plus the numbers of the Strong's Concordance.
  • The Strong's Concordance - that matches all the words of the Bible, so you can look them up (even though you can look it up in the computer in sites like http://bible.gospelcom.net/)
  • A Bible Encicolpedia - which has the history
  • A Bible Dictionary - which has the meaning and history of the words
Because of the internet, you may not need to buy all this stuff. You probably can seacrh for words in the internet instead of searching in the Strong's Concordance. Also, a Bible Dictionary may not add as much as an Enciclopedia. Probably, if you have one, you won't need the other. But the Interlinear Bible is still essential.
 
You must realize that Christianity, by definition, says that all other systems are false. It is not that it is "superior" the way you apparently try and connect it with arrogance. It is simply that it is true and saying so doesn't mean we are superior or arrogant in attitude. It is superior because it is true. Jesus, who claimed to be God in flesh (John 8:24,58; 10:30-33; Exod. 3:14, cf, John 20:28; Col. 2:9; Heb. 1:6,8), said that He was the only way to God the Father (John 14:6; Matt. 11:27). We Christians believe Him.

Institutionalized arrogance, then? That's messed up. And I recalled jesus as someone who taught humility...or was it the opposite?

Pride in a person is something God does not want. The attitude of arrogant superiority in a person is not what God wants, either. But, that does not change the fact that Christianity is, by nature, superior to all other systems -- since it alone represents the true God as manifested in Christ. Being true, it is therefore superior by nature, but that does not mean that it is inconsistent with itself since being true does not mean that those who believe it is superior are being prideful. Pride is something in people. Christianity is the historical revelation and manifestation of Jesus who claimed to be God, walked on water, healed people, rose from the dead, etc. This occurred in history. For me to say it is true and to believe it is true over all other systems does not make me arrogant anymore than you, an atheist, believe that your atheism is true, and therefore superior, over all religious systems.

Attempting to "prove" a religious point of view superior to another is a messed up act. The fact that you do claim christianity to be superior to *all others* detracts a lot from your persuasiveness.

Furthermore, Christianity teaches a Trinitarian God which all other religious systems do not (contra modalism, tritheism, etc). Christianity teaches salvation by grace through faith alone, which all other religious systems do not. Though there are similarities in other systems, Christianity is unique in its scope, evidence, soteriology, and theology.

Theology is easy to make up. Christian theology is overly simplistic in its blatant generalization of the world as being divided into good and evil. What's so uniqe about that? A cheap fantasy writer can do that.

Salvation by grace through faith? A smooth way of saying that the only quality your god values is blind obedience and nothing else. He obviously doesn't care for anything else. That's very twisted. Sounds very similar to satanism to me. Now don't get started again about that remark!
 
truthseeker,

I think you are emphasizing my point for me very well. To properly understand the bible stories it is necessary to understand the cultures and traditions of the time of writing, since much of the wording makes assumptions about lifestyles that no longer exist in our modern time. This necessarily entails the need for experts who try to place themselves back in history and create biblical interpretations that they hope represent the intent of the original authors.

That is all quite nice but that really wasn’t my point. If these stories are the word of God written for us so that we may have some understanding of him and guidance of how we should live, then why did he only have texts generated that were appropriate for people thousands of years ago and not produce something that would be effective for people of all times? If he really wants us to understand why does he make it so difficult for us? Why doesn’t he revisit us now and generate a new set of texts appropriate for our languages, customs, and traditions that we can readily understand and follow, instead of relying on often-dubious interpretations generated by specialist intellectuals?

My interpretation of these observations is that the bible stories were written by the people of those ancient times purely for the benefit of the people of those times and based on their perceptions of what a god would be like and what he might need.

Remember that back in those times illiteracy was commonplace, there was no TV or radio, and common entertainment was in the form of storytellers who would add imaginative embellishments to please their audiences. Myth making was the norm and not the exception. And the most successful myths are those that tell of kings, and gods, and knights, and heroes and saviors. This is not too different from the movies we watch that come out of Hollywood. Nothing has really changed for thousands of years. We still enjoy a good story.

The problem comes when the myths are interpreted by many as truths.

So try studying some history of the times and imagine yourself back in those times and you should see how the fictional myths of most of the bible stories and Christianly were created.

You should start with the Lost Gospel, the study of Q. And then progress to some objective works that cover the history of Christianity.
 
Because I agree with your main point? :p

And thank you for welcoming me. I hope to become one of the "family".
 
Yup, welcome Maia.

While we're on the subject of myths and such, I'd like to point out the famous radio broadcast by Orsen Welles back before he directed movies. For those who don't know, he staged a show on the radio about an alien invasion of Earth that played in a single episode. He made it sound real and people actually believed him. There was mass hysteria throughout the United States about an alien invasion, people genuinely believed every word he said. Eventually they found out it was only a radio program. Imagine if no one had told them it was a radio program. Also imagine the aliens were said to have landed in, say, Cuba. Would these people really be able to seperate fact from fiction in this case?

It is entirely plausible that people would have believed such an event actually occurred (keep in mind, this would be in the mid 30's or so) and such an extraordinary event would certainly live on through stories. Isn't it plausible that the Bible was such an event? Fictional but believed not only because of the massive illiteracy and lack of communication in those times, but because it also answered many questions people back then had. There are many such myths, from the Greek gods to the Egyptian gods, all of which have lived on even until today. Isn't it plausible that Christianity may be among these myths? If the Egyptian empire still existed today, would they not believe in their gods even now?
 
Cris,

If these stories are the word of God written for us so that we may have some understanding of him and guidance of how we should live, then why did he only have texts generated that were appropriate for people thousands of years ago and not produce something that would be effective for people of all times?
Who said that? It is actually pretty clear statements such as "Love one another", "Don't kill", and "Don't commit adultery", aren't they? Those things are forever effective. The only problem here is that an omniscient being is trying to say something for little kids that usually don't understand anything. God will allways be the same. He allways has been. His message never changed and will never change. It is just the way we tell them that will change. In the same way I can say "Good Morning" or "Bom Dia" or "Buon Giorno" or "Buenos Dias" or whatever language, I can say it in many ways. The message doesn't change, it is just the way that I say it that change. In the same way God say things very simply, but people have to put in context their history, their culture and their language to communicate it.

If he really wants us to understand why does he make it so difficult for us?

He doesn't make it difficult, we do. God has only one nature, that is good. That's why He doesn't need to judge. Since He has only one nature He is very clear. We, in the other hand, have a sinful-godly nature. Sometimes we are sin, sometimes we are righteousness. That's why judgment is important and necessary for us. It's like comparing a full glass with an empty glass. God only "knows" the full glass, so He doesn't judge it, it simply is. We have to judge it because we "know" both of them. It's a matter of concentration and awareness.

Why doesn? he revisit us now and generate a new set of texts appropriate for our languages, customs, and traditions that we can readily understand and follow, instead of relying on often-dubious interpretations generated by specialist intellectuals?

There are no "intelectuals". The Bible says that a pastor specialized in teaching and counscelling is important for the church. However, that doesn't mean that what he does we can't do, he just has a more intimate relationship with God and is more conscient about what is written. He revisited us many times and we really screwed up... why do you think that are so many religions...?

My interpretation of these observations is that the bible stories were written by the people of those ancient times purely for the benefit of the people of those times and based on their perceptions of what a god would be like and what he might need.

Did you really read Exodus...?

Remember that back in those times illiteracy was commonplace, there was no TV or radio, and common entertainment was in the form of storytellers who would add imaginative embellishments to please their audiences. Myth making was the norm and not the exception. And the most successful myths are those that tell of kings, and gods, and knights, and heroes and saviors. This is not too different from the movies we watch that come out of Hollywood. Nothing has really changed for thousands of years. We still enjoy a good story.
In the beginning, people would certainly tell it from one person to another... However, we didn't get those books from nowhere. They were written by people, instructed by God. They are not just stories... many of them have some historical relevance. For example, one of those days they found the tomb of Jesus's brother. Besides that, since Jesus came the number of Christians has just increased. It's not just a story that we got from nowhere. Many people also experienced miracles even greater then those that are written in the Bible, and soon even you will start experiencing and seen things that can only be from God. Just wait. The probability of His plans for us being fulfilled in this generation is really big. It is just not certain that it will happen now because only God knows when it will happen, but the signs written in the Bible are already popping up from many places around the planet.

The problem comes when the myths are interpreted by many as truths.

You will see what is a "myth"...:D:D
 
truthseeker,

It is actually pretty clear statements such as "Love one another", "Don't kill", and "Don't commit adultery", aren't they? Those things are forever effective.
Yes and they have been around a lot longer than Christianity. We don’t need a God to tell us these things.

He doesn't make it difficult, we do.
How is having to understand the perspective of the bible simple if we have to understand the significantly different lifestyles and cultures of people who lived 2000 years ago? This was your earlier argument explaining the need for experts. If you need experts then that indicates the message isn’t simple.

The Bible says that a pastor specialized in teaching and counscelling is important for the church. However, that doesn't mean that what he does we can't do, he just has a more intimate relationship with God and is more conscient about what is written.
So the message isn’t simple and it does need experts to get it right.

He revisited us many times and we really screwed up... why do you think that are so many religions...?
Because he is an incompetent teacher perhaps. He is omnipotent why can’t he get it right the first time?

Did you really read Exodus...?
What was the point of this question?

They were written by people, instructed by God.
Then he could have instructed them to write the stories such that we wouldn’t need experts to interpret what he wanted to say.

They are not just stories... many of them have some historical relevance.
Most myths tend to have some factual basis even if no more than actual locations. Myths are more enjoyable if woven around real places, like many good fiction novels.

Besides that, since Jesus came the number of Christians has just increased.
So has the total world population. But two thirds of the world population are not Christian, and of those that are Christian only a few like you are fundamentalist.

It's not just a story that we got from nowhere.
That is true. Many parts of the bible were plagiarized from earlier writings.

Many people also experienced miracles even greater then those that are written in the Bible.
The parting of the red sea seemed pretty big. Who are these many people who have experienced events that are bigger? Any examples?

The probability of His plans for us being fulfilled in this generation is really big.
This is a claim that has been made by every generation for the past 2000 years. Your wish coming true seems as unlikely as all your predecessors.

You will see what is a "myth"..
I’ve seen it. It is called Christianity.
 
Cris,

Yes and they have been around a lot longer than Christianity. We don? need a God to tell us these things.
Really? Then why don't you follow them? And from whom do you think those things came from?:bugeye:

How is having to understand the perspective of the bible simple if we have to understand the significantly different lifestyles and cultures of people who lived 2000 years ago? This was your earlier argument explaining the need for experts. If you need experts then that indicates the message isn? simple
Have you read my post at all? All that He said was very simple, it was the people that had made it complex and people still make it complex. The message is simple... it is just us that are not...

So the message isn? simple and it does need experts to get it right.
The message IS simple and we still need a Christian with more intimacy with God to guide us...:bugeye:

Because he is an incompetent teacher perhaps. He is omnipotent why can? he get it right the first time?

He got it right! It was US that made it so complex!! That's my whole point here!

What was the point of this question?

To clarify wheter you know or not about what you are talking about...

Then he could have instructed them to write the stories such that we wouldn? need experts to interpret what he wanted to say.

Again, WE make it complex, not God...

So has the total world population. But two thirds of the world population are not Christian, and of those that are Christian only a few like you are fundamentalist.

I'm not fundamentalist...

The parting of the red sea seemed pretty big. Who are these many people who have experienced events that are bigger? Any examples?

Well... I met a guy that had a lot of quite exciting experiences... but the really big miracles are yet to come...

This is a claim that has been made by every generation for the past 2000 years. Your wish coming true seems as unlikely as all your predecessors.

There are people now that are able to film and record things that God is doing. For example, I have a friend that has a video of a man that died and 3 days after was reaised from the dead. He was pretty white just before he woke up. His blood was even completly drowned. God is allowing us to record those kind of things now, cause the time is nearand He wants to save as many people as possible...
 
Truthseeker,

Really? Then why don't you follow them?
Why do you think I don’t?

And from whom do you think those things came from?
From people of course, there is no one else. This is a matter of rational morality. People are perfectly capable of devising conduct for themselves that enhances their happiness and survival. Such things as love, compassion, mutual support, etc, all contribute to increased survivability. A perfect example of how evolution works so well.

He got it right! It was US that made it so complex!! That's my whole point here!
Any competent teacher can reduce a complex or perceived complex issue to something that can be easily understood. Had he wanted to us to learn he could have made it such that we would not have perceived his word as complex. The implication is that he wanted us to be confused and that makes no sense.

I'm not fundamentalist...
You believe that what the bible says is true and you use that as the basis for your beliefs. That is Christian fundamentalism.

Well... I met a guy that had a lot of quite exciting experiences... but the really big miracles are yet to come...
So are you now saying that there aren’t any miracles that are greater than those in the bible?

There are people now that are able to film and record things that God is doing.
For example, I have a friend that has a video of a man that died and 3 days after was reaised from the dead. He was pretty white just before he woke up. His blood was even completly drowned. God is allowing us to record those kind of things now, cause the time is nearand He wants to save as many people as possible...
Hollywood creates these fantasies all the time. Was this conducted under scientific conditions? How does one obtain a copy of this video? How does the video record the elapsed duration of three days? How does the video verify that the man was actually dead?
 
Cris,

Why do you think I don??
I was talking about the world... eventhough you certainly have sinned...

From people of course, there is no one else. This is a matter of rational morality. People are perfectly capable of devising conduct for themselves that enhances their happiness and survival. Such things as love, compassion, mutual support, etc, all contribute to increased survivability. A perfect example of how evolution works so well.

No, they came from God.

Any competent teacher can reduce a complex or perceived complex issue to something that can be easily understood. Had he wanted to us to learn he could have made it such that we would not have perceived his word as complex. The implication is that he wanted us to be confused and that makes no sense.

Ai ai ai...
Have you read what I wrote? I made it clear that He made things really easy for us. WEmade it complex, not Him. In the beginning He gave us 10 laws. By the time Jesus came there were more than 1000! Then Jesus came and made things REALLY simple. He reduced 10 laws into one: "Love one another". After he went to Heaven here we are again with more then 10000 laws... depending on the country, of course...
Why do you think there are lawyers? The whole law can be reduced in one single sentence: "Love one another"... and we still keep making laws... It wasn't God that made things complex, WE made things complex.

You believe that what the bible says is true and you use that as the basis for your beliefs. That is Christian fundamentalism.

I have no religion...

So are you now saying that there aren? any miracles that are greater than those in the bible?

No. There certainly were, but I never heard a description about one... (or I don't remember have heard...)

Hollywood creates these fantasies all the time. Was this conducted under scientific conditions? How does one obtain a copy of this video? How does the video record the elapsed duration of three days? How does the video verify that the man was actually dead?
Yes. I'll find that out. I don't think it does, but who knows...? There are documents, there are doctors talking and making very clear that he was dead, etc...
 
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