Note for Christians

[TruthSeeker]

Maia,

What an interesting name... isn't that the name for "ilusion" in Hinduism...?

Salvation by grace through faith? A smooth way of saying that the only quality your god values is blind obedience and nothing else. He obviously doesn't care for anything else. That's very twisted. Sounds very similar to satanism to me. Now don't get started again about that remark!

Jesus died on the cross for us. He died for us to show us how Love is so important. He died for his cause and for the world. He want us to do the same thing, to Love one another so much that we can lay down our lives for our friends. It's a really powerful Love that can do great things. He even told us to get a cross and do what he did. Not in the literal sense, but what he meant is for us to follow Love, allways, no matter what. If following Love means to be killed, then still follow Love. That's what He is asking us to do, to Love one another. It's not a matter of obedience, it is a matter of Love, courage and perseverance.

 

[(Q)]

Truthseeker

I have no religion...

In other words, there is no one particular religion which conforms to the exacting standards of your belief system. But that doesn't mean you have no religion.

If you can respond in the affirmative to the following list of measures required to, "have religion," so to speak - then a religion, you have.

- A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.

- Institution to express belief in a divine power.

Carry on...

"Barbarism has no ethnicity and evil has no religion."
--Prime Minister John Howard - September 12, 2002

 

[Cris]

truthseeker,

you certainly have sinned...

To sin means to disobey the laws of a god. Since no one can show that any gods exist or have ever existed, then no one can show any laws created by gods. So, given those conditions, it seems highly unlikely that I can have ever sinned.

No, they came from God.

You can’t prove that since you can’t prove a god exists. All we know is that the authoritarian laws of the bible were written by men at a time when authoritarianism was assumed to be the normal form of government.

The intelligence of man is perfectly capable of creating rules for morality that are based on human needs. Gods are not needed for such a function.

Ai ai ai...
Have you read what I wrote? I made it clear that He made things really easy for us. WEmade it complex, not Him.

Sorry T but you are confusing yourself.

Either something is complex or it isn’t. If God made something simple then there is no way we can make it complex. What you really mean is that we PERCEIVE the issues as complex. See my text ”a complex or perceived complex issue”.

The primary reason people perceive a simple issue as complex is a lack of understanding. I.e. they need education. If God wanted us to understand then he could have taught us since he is meant to be perfect and can do anything. We are left with the only rational conclusion that we are confused because he wants us to be confused, i.e. he could have helped but chose not to.

The whole law can be reduced in one single sentence: "Love one another"...

If true then why, if he exists, does he appear to have been so incompetent that he couldn’t teach everyone this rule?

I have no religion...

Sure you do –

From Webster – Religion:- a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices.

You may not follow one of the institutions but you have definitely created a personal set of beliefs, and apparently based on the bible. Or do you believe that the bible is not true?

 

[Maia]

No, Truthseeker...Maya is illusion, I believe Maia is the name of one of the Pleiades...

 

[TruthSeeker]

(Q),

- Institution to express belief in a divine power.

No institution... no religion...


Cris,

To sin means to disobey the laws of a god. Since no one can show that any gods exist or have ever existed, then no one can show any laws created by gods. So, given those conditions, it seems highly unlikely that I can have ever sinned.

To sin means to disobey "Love one another". That's sin. And if you don't Love yourself, that also count as a sin... Everyone sins. It's part of human nature since God and man were separed by Satan...

All we know is that the authoritarian laws of the bible were written by men at a time when authoritarianism was assumed to be the normal form of government.

No, they weren't. Those people weren't authoritarian in the first place. Besides that, the law "Love one another" is certainly not made by any authoritarian figure.

Either something is complex or it isn?. If God made something simple then there is no way we can make it complex. What you really mean is that we PERCEIVE the issues as complex.

Of course we perceive them as complex, because we judge them...! That's what I said in the beginning of this conversation...

The primary reason people perceive a simple issue as complex is a lack of understanding. I.e. they need education. If God wanted us to understand then he could have taught us since he is meant to be perfect and can do anything. We are left with the only rational conclusion that we are confused because he wants us to be confused, i.e. he could have helped but chose not to.

Whenever He tries to help us, we screw things up. We are not different then babies that burn their hands because they don't listen to their parents saying "Don't do that."... Again, what can a baby understand? You need to grow up before you fully understand something, even if it is simple. He taught us, but "we" prefer to play then to go to school. "We" are too rebelled to listen to our Father...

If true then why, if he exists, does he appear to have been so incompetent that he couldn? teach everyone this rule?

He tried to... "We" are rebellious. You, for example, don't even believe He exists. How can He teach you something if you prefer to completly ignore His existance?

You may not follow one of the institutions but you have definitely created a personal set of beliefs, and apparently based on the bible. Or do you believe that the bible is not true?

My beliefs are the reality I perceive. Even more then that, it's what I already learnt and experienced in life...
Yes, I "believe" that the Bible is true...


Maia,

No, Truthseeker...Maya is illusion, I believe Maia is the name of one of the Pleiades...

... almost the same...
I don't remember any star in the Pleiades named "Maia"... oh well... I'm not that good in memorizing names anyway...

 

[Jenyar]

Look at the world around you. Simplicity is an illusion of gestalt. A useful illusion, but an illusion nontheless. We perceive things as a simple whole first, then as we seek to explore and understand it, we uncover its complexities layer by layer until we need to simplify what we know again in a theory or a law. That is why Hawking's 'theory of everything' is so attractive.

People are limited to what we can see, and we cannot comprehend infinitely complex things because we are limited by what we can remember, understand, explain and conceptualise at any given moment. That is why people specialise. That is why we need books and computers - to store and be able to retrieve that information at will.

The Bible is no different. It is a collection of manuscripts, letters, poems, history - a history of human experience with God. I don't think you can get a more complex topic presented any more simply. There are layers and layers of information. But even with all this diverse information, the Bible is a self-contained message: that Jesus had come to fill the rift between man and God.

First of all, the Bible is written with the premise that God exists and created mankind. That is the simple complex truth of life. From there on you grow deeper and deeper into knowledge of Man's will and God's Will (what the Bible calls true wisdom) and he contrast between the two. Once again, because of Jesus we don't need to get closer to God, and we don't need to "bring God down to earth" with our own insights. The next layer is "Love God with all your heart and soul" (which the Bible describes at great length how to do), including "love your next as yourself" (which leaves little room for interpretation). From there on we get questions like: "Who is my neighbor?", and Jesus demonstrates with the parable of the Good Samaritan. He doesn't give a "complex" description, but uses a "simple" story and let's us decide for ourselves what is to be learned. But the message is consistent.

As an example:
Leviticus 19
17 " 'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.
18 " 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD .
19 " 'Keep my decrees.
" 'Do not mate different kinds of animals.
" 'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
" 'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

You can see that these commandments are again a simple practical exercise/example, teaching concepts that God wants to make sure the people learn: that of holiness and separation. By the laws we know what the transgression would look like, and as you look for the reasons why God made those laws you learn more about what God's will is. Layer by layer.