I made no claim whatsoever. If I want to post those messages here is because of my own free will.
And I'm not on crack... (you KNOW that...):bugeye:
And I'm not on crack... (you KNOW that...):bugeye:
Note for Christians
- Thread starter TruthSeeker
- Start date
Fine go ahead, at least try to convince Oxygen to let you do it. It's up to her or Porfiry.
You not on crack!? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...
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There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
You not on crack!? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...
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There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
But there is another issue here. What makes these forums fun is that we are talking with each other using our own ideas. While many of us do quote experts occasionally it is usually in support of our own essays.
What truthseeker wants to do is quote sermons from his pastor in order to spread religious teaching. We won’t be debating with truthseeker, but indirectly with his pastor instead. And that is not acceptable.
What truthseeker wants to do is quote sermons from his pastor in order to spread religious teaching. We won’t be debating with truthseeker, but indirectly with his pastor instead. And that is not acceptable.
But you forget that my opinion is not much different then my pastor's. Another thing is that he knows how to explain biblical things... that's his job, isn't it?
Many things written there would give a good insight (even for atheists) of how to read the Bible, and how to interpret many things...
Many things written there would give a good insight (even for atheists) of how to read the Bible, and how to interpret many things...
Truthseeker
Prothets glorify God by edifying the church. Prophecy is not an act of selfishness, is an act of Love...
Are you claiming to be a prophet ?!?
But you forget that my opinion is not much different then my pastor's. Another thing is that he knows how to explain biblical things... that's his job, isn't it?
You should not speak for your pastor. If you think he can explain "biblical things" so well, ask him to become a member here that we might interrogate him as well. I would rather hear his opinion from the horses mouth, as it were.
Many things written there would give a good insight (even for atheists) of how to read the Bible, and how to interpret many things...
The Bible is wide open for interpretation. Who is to say your pastors interpretation is the right one for anybody else other than him or you ?
Prothets glorify God by edifying the church. Prophecy is not an act of selfishness, is an act of Love...
Are you claiming to be a prophet ?!?
But you forget that my opinion is not much different then my pastor's. Another thing is that he knows how to explain biblical things... that's his job, isn't it?
You should not speak for your pastor. If you think he can explain "biblical things" so well, ask him to become a member here that we might interrogate him as well. I would rather hear his opinion from the horses mouth, as it were.
Many things written there would give a good insight (even for atheists) of how to read the Bible, and how to interpret many things...
The Bible is wide open for interpretation. Who is to say your pastors interpretation is the right one for anybody else other than him or you ?
(Q),
HAHAHAHA!!!
NOT REALLY!!! I still have long ways to go!!
:bugeye:
He researches the words in Hebrew and Greek and apply them to the scripture being studied. He also anylizes who is adressing and who is being adressed. He analyzes the historical implications. He put the books in a timeline. He uses cross-references, etc...
HAHAHAHA!!!
NOT REALLY!!! I still have long ways to go!!
:bugeye:
He researches the words in Hebrew and Greek and apply them to the scripture being studied. He also anylizes who is adressing and who is being adressed. He analyzes the historical implications. He put the books in a timeline. He uses cross-references, etc...
truthseeker,
He sounds like a significant intellectual.
Surely one must only have faith and then God will reveal the meaning to those who simply read his word. I seem to recall some scripture that says that God would not expect anything more from someone beyond their ability. This implies that you should be able to read the bible and with your significant faith, God will reveal everything you need. Why would you need a great intellectual like your pastor for further help?
Why also are there many hundreds of Christian sects and cults who all interpret the bible differently? All profess to have faith in God. What guarantee do you have that the interpretations by your Pastor are any more precise than say the Mormon views, or any other biblical ‘expert’?
Why does he need to do any of that?
He sounds like a significant intellectual.
Surely one must only have faith and then God will reveal the meaning to those who simply read his word. I seem to recall some scripture that says that God would not expect anything more from someone beyond their ability. This implies that you should be able to read the bible and with your significant faith, God will reveal everything you need. Why would you need a great intellectual like your pastor for further help?
Why also are there many hundreds of Christian sects and cults who all interpret the bible differently? All profess to have faith in God. What guarantee do you have that the interpretations by your Pastor are any more precise than say the Mormon views, or any other biblical ‘expert’?
Let your pastor register at scifora and we'll take him on.
*takes out and polishes his 4barrel, semiauto grenade launcher*
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There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
*takes out and polishes his 4barrel, semiauto grenade launcher*
__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
Cris,
Because he goes deep in the scripture, he studies them.
He does that. But unfortunatly, there are many people that try to tell us the wrong meaning and twist His Word. He only have to analyse It because some people try to trick us. For example, when an atheist bring a scripture for us to prove us wrong we instantly start to analyse it and find out what is wrong in the atheist's analysis. Most of atheists bring pieces of scriptures out of context to try to prove us wrong.
There are also people that seek that on gain by using the Bible. That's one of the reasons why we have so many different sects and doctrines. The Catholics, for example, spent a long time tricking people into believing that they had to pay for their sins. So they would charge them money to pay for them. To do that, they had to keep the people uneducated, because in the Bible is written:
1 Peter 3:18
"18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; "
This proves that our sins have been paid for. So the Catholics kept the believers uneducated so that they couldn't read it. They also used to quote the Bible in Latin, so that people wouldn't understand it.
This answers your question...
Some of them have some different doctrines and traditions which are not very good but at least don't completly twist the Bible.
There are many other examples of people who make this kind of thing...
Daniel 2:20
"20 Daniel said, "Let the name of God be blessed forever and ever, For wisdom and power belong to Him."
Which means that wisdom comes from God, we are wise through Him, and to have this wisdom you must have faith that He will give it to you.
1 Corinthians 2:6-8
"6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; "
Again, it is God's wisdom that you hear, not ours. He give it to us through our faith.
Proverbs 2:6
"6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding. "
Wise people read the Bible in the way I described.
He does his job not for his own gain but by the gain of everyone. Besides that, it's not hard to know what is from God and what is not...
Because he goes deep in the scripture, he studies them.
He does that. But unfortunatly, there are many people that try to tell us the wrong meaning and twist His Word. He only have to analyse It because some people try to trick us. For example, when an atheist bring a scripture for us to prove us wrong we instantly start to analyse it and find out what is wrong in the atheist's analysis. Most of atheists bring pieces of scriptures out of context to try to prove us wrong.
There are also people that seek that on gain by using the Bible. That's one of the reasons why we have so many different sects and doctrines. The Catholics, for example, spent a long time tricking people into believing that they had to pay for their sins. So they would charge them money to pay for them. To do that, they had to keep the people uneducated, because in the Bible is written:
1 Peter 3:18
"18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; "
This proves that our sins have been paid for. So the Catholics kept the believers uneducated so that they couldn't read it. They also used to quote the Bible in Latin, so that people wouldn't understand it.
This answers your question...
Some of them have some different doctrines and traditions which are not very good but at least don't completly twist the Bible.
There are many other examples of people who make this kind of thing...
Daniel 2:20
"20 Daniel said, "Let the name of God be blessed forever and ever, For wisdom and power belong to Him."
Which means that wisdom comes from God, we are wise through Him, and to have this wisdom you must have faith that He will give it to you.
1 Corinthians 2:6-8
"6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; "
Again, it is God's wisdom that you hear, not ours. He give it to us through our faith.
Proverbs 2:6
"6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding. "
Wise people read the Bible in the way I described.
He does his job not for his own gain but by the gain of everyone. Besides that, it's not hard to know what is from God and what is not...
Assuming we believe in your god, which some of us don't...there are wise people among those who read the bible but you don't have to read the bible to be wise...or believe in yrou god...agreed?
__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
1 Corinthians 3:18-20
"18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";
20 and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS."
...
"18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";
20 and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS."
...
Why're you quoting the bible? It's almost as if you think it's a big authority on the subject here...or have you started your catechism class already!?
__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
I answered your question. I clearly said that true wisdom comes only from God. So I quoted it. What is the problem? I'm certainly not a big authority on it. I still have a lot to learn. However, the things that I know I teach you. That's all that I did. And btw, I'm not catholic and I will never cathetisize (or whatever) anyone...
truthseeker,
My point is why do we need experts to interpret the bible? Why is the bible so confusing that it takes enormous intellectual ability, endless analysis and study, to be sure of the correct meaning? Surely those with poor education and/or low intelligence stand no chance. Why would such a perfect God create a book that isn’t clear to everyone? If he is omnipotent as claimed then he could have created a book that everyone could understand without any confusion.
But my point was not about atheists but other Christians who create alternative interpretations.
BTW what sect do you belong?
That only says what he does, it doesn’t answer why.
My point is why do we need experts to interpret the bible? Why is the bible so confusing that it takes enormous intellectual ability, endless analysis and study, to be sure of the correct meaning? Surely those with poor education and/or low intelligence stand no chance. Why would such a perfect God create a book that isn’t clear to everyone? If he is omnipotent as claimed then he could have created a book that everyone could understand without any confusion.
There are many books, in science for example that explain very complex topics in very clear detail so that they cannot be misinterpreted. Why is the bible so imprecise that it leaves itself open to misinterpretation?
But my point was not about atheists but other Christians who create alternative interpretations.
I am sure they might well say the same about you. Each Christian sect appears equally convinced it has the true version just like you. Why is your interpretation correct and theirs isn’t?
And if all Christian sects believe this then why are there so many interpretations. Can’t God make up his mind?
Ah ha, and again so why are there so many sects that seemingly can’t tell the difference?
BTW what sect do you belong?
"And if all Christian sects believe this then why are there so many interpretations. Can’t God make up his mind?"
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Christopher, although I do not consider you worth my time, I will point out the error in your logic here. The Bible, which I have already proven valid through secular evidences on other threads, is true and unchanging. Conversely, it is flawed humans who are corrupted by worldy possessions and inspired by selfish desires, and therefore, seek to manipulate the text of the Bible (and ultimately God) to fulfill their narcissistic demands. This explains the presence of many false religions, including atheism. Christopher, one only needs a basic automobile to get around, right? Yet, there are thousands of different makes, models, styles, colors, etc. of automobiles to choose from to meet the individual demands of society. Once again, it is humans and false religions who change, not the accuracy and validity of biblical text.
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Christopher, although I do not consider you worth my time, I will point out the error in your logic here. The Bible, which I have already proven valid through secular evidences on other threads, is true and unchanging. Conversely, it is flawed humans who are corrupted by worldy possessions and inspired by selfish desires, and therefore, seek to manipulate the text of the Bible (and ultimately God) to fulfill their narcissistic demands. This explains the presence of many false religions, including atheism. Christopher, one only needs a basic automobile to get around, right? Yet, there are thousands of different makes, models, styles, colors, etc. of automobiles to choose from to meet the individual demands of society. Once again, it is humans and false religions who change, not the accuracy and validity of biblical text.
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The issues where Christian "sects" differ is usually on some doctrine or other, such as adult or infant baptisms, acceptance or rejection of certain practices and application of certain dogma. Some churches are more charismatic, some are more rational and reserved, and yet others are more liturgical or orthodox.
The main problems are problems of personal preference (for which the Roman Catholic church doesn't cater and hence it's success, but also its critics). Protestant churches really attempted to create a more Biblically-based and less traditional ministry. The differences are more differences of focus than of message. The different "sects" don't compete with one another, they are collections of people who hold the same perspective. The only place where those differences will be defended from is the Bible, and any honest and genuine Christian will bear testimony by faith and love, not by force of will.
The message remains the same, and the differences are that of opinion not of authority - which remains God, and of which Jesus remains the perfect example. All Christian churches are subject to God's leadership, and follow Jesus' example. That is the only truth and the one which binds them all together.
You will find that Christian churches are becoming more and more open to dialogue and willing to address common issues. Whether Christians follow Apollos, Paul or Peter - they are all only watering, but there is only one who can let grow.
The main problems are problems of personal preference (for which the Roman Catholic church doesn't cater and hence it's success, but also its critics). Protestant churches really attempted to create a more Biblically-based and less traditional ministry. The differences are more differences of focus than of message. The different "sects" don't compete with one another, they are collections of people who hold the same perspective. The only place where those differences will be defended from is the Bible, and any honest and genuine Christian will bear testimony by faith and love, not by force of will.
The message remains the same, and the differences are that of opinion not of authority - which remains God, and of which Jesus remains the perfect example. All Christian churches are subject to God's leadership, and follow Jesus' example. That is the only truth and the one which binds them all together.
You will find that Christian churches are becoming more and more open to dialogue and willing to address common issues. Whether Christians follow Apollos, Paul or Peter - they are all only watering, but there is only one who can let grow.
Jenyar,
Thanks. I understand that position but I was referring to different interpretations of the bible rather than doctrines.
For example some say the 6th commandment says thou shall not kill while others say it means thou shall not murder.
The difference is fundamental because the first variation supports the Jesus idea of love your enemies and turning the other cheek and vengence being the realm of God. But if it only means no murder then that opens up the option to kill for self-defense and would support wars.
Another issue is the alleged virgin birth where some sects insist she was a virgin whereas others interpret the original text to mean young woman. The issue again raises the issue of whether Jesus was of a divine conception or just another man who was just a rebel.
These seem like key issues to me that dramatically affect the Christian message.
I can quote some more if you like but I think you can probably follow my perspective.
Thanks. I understand that position but I was referring to different interpretations of the bible rather than doctrines.
For example some say the 6th commandment says thou shall not kill while others say it means thou shall not murder.
The difference is fundamental because the first variation supports the Jesus idea of love your enemies and turning the other cheek and vengence being the realm of God. But if it only means no murder then that opens up the option to kill for self-defense and would support wars.
Another issue is the alleged virgin birth where some sects insist she was a virgin whereas others interpret the original text to mean young woman. The issue again raises the issue of whether Jesus was of a divine conception or just another man who was just a rebel.
These seem like key issues to me that dramatically affect the Christian message.
I can quote some more if you like but I think you can probably follow my perspective.
Truthseeker, the only true wisdom comes from god? You're basically saying that everyone non-christian is following the wrong path, are deluded, and are hopelessly foolish. You're also saying that your religion is the only one that is valid and all other religions are wrong and useless. And this is not a place for teaching, this is a place for discussion and debate. Clearly understand the purpose for this place before you participate.
Inspector, if Cris is not worthy of your time then no one in this place is. You're claiming the same things as truthseeker. Basically, the gist of your arguments are that your viewpoints are the only valid ones, and everyone else is wrong. The basic starting point is different from mine and cris' and etc. Truthseeker' and you are starting from the "I am superior and I'm only here to enlighten you all" point. I, Cris, and the helpful discussion people here are coming from the "We are equals and so let's debate things. " point of view. Did you read the CallingAllAtheists thread I started a week or two ago? That applies to everyone here, not just atheists. Without considering eveyrone equal to you there can be no further discussion. There will only be trolls and flames.
While we're at it, if god is the only source of true wisdom then why are there so many different interpretations of the bible?Which interpretation is right? Is yours the only right interpretation and everyone else incorrect?
Calling atheism a false religion is as old as christianity itself, and far older. It has not received a single scratch from harder thrusts than yours. Don't ram your head against walls that won't yield. Do you mind providing me with logical arguments on why atheism would be a false religion? While we're at that too, why would be all non-christian religions be false? What makes yours right alone?
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There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
Inspector, if Cris is not worthy of your time then no one in this place is. You're claiming the same things as truthseeker. Basically, the gist of your arguments are that your viewpoints are the only valid ones, and everyone else is wrong. The basic starting point is different from mine and cris' and etc. Truthseeker' and you are starting from the "I am superior and I'm only here to enlighten you all" point. I, Cris, and the helpful discussion people here are coming from the "We are equals and so let's debate things. " point of view. Did you read the CallingAllAtheists thread I started a week or two ago? That applies to everyone here, not just atheists. Without considering eveyrone equal to you there can be no further discussion. There will only be trolls and flames.
While we're at it, if god is the only source of true wisdom then why are there so many different interpretations of the bible?Which interpretation is right? Is yours the only right interpretation and everyone else incorrect?
Calling atheism a false religion is as old as christianity itself, and far older. It has not received a single scratch from harder thrusts than yours. Don't ram your head against walls that won't yield. Do you mind providing me with logical arguments on why atheism would be a false religion? While we're at that too, why would be all non-christian religions be false? What makes yours right alone?
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There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?
"Do you mind providing me with logical arguments on why atheism would be a false religion? While we're at that too, why would be all non-christian religions be false? What makes yours right alone?"
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The dictionary defines a cult as "a system of religious worship or ritual"; "devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for, a person, principle, etc.", "a group of followers." This is a typical secular definition and by it, any believer in any god is a cultist, even atheists since they have an admiration for a principle and are a group of followers of the philosophy of atheism. The definition I use for "non-Christian cult" or "non-Christian religion" is a group that may or may not include the Bible in its set of authoritative scriptures. If it does include the Bible, it distorts the true biblical doctrines that affect salvation sufficiently so as to void salvation. If it doesn't use the Bible, it is a non-Christian religion and does not participate in the benefits of divine revelation.
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The dictionary defines a cult as "a system of religious worship or ritual"; "devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for, a person, principle, etc.", "a group of followers." This is a typical secular definition and by it, any believer in any god is a cultist, even atheists since they have an admiration for a principle and are a group of followers of the philosophy of atheism. The definition I use for "non-Christian cult" or "non-Christian religion" is a group that may or may not include the Bible in its set of authoritative scriptures. If it does include the Bible, it distorts the true biblical doctrines that affect salvation sufficiently so as to void salvation. If it doesn't use the Bible, it is a non-Christian religion and does not participate in the benefits of divine revelation.
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