No Way Out?

[lixluke]

cool skill

i am not an atheist. maybe atheist do believe what you say, what do you know about what i believe?

Yes you are. You were the one making atheist comments.

 

[SVRP]

so do you believe god created sin/disobedience? if you are saying man created sin by disobedcience do you believe the capacity to create sin by disobedeince was created man or by god? if you are saying by man, then was the ability to create the capacity to create sin created by god?
hope that makes sense!

We were given the ability to make a choice, i.e., freedom of choice or free will. The results of our choice is an inherit part in selecting rightly or wrongly. Sin is the willful act of disobeying God. It is the reason why God separated His Spirit from man.
For example: if a man willfully chooses to take another person’s life, did he create murder? Murder is the action that resulted in the death of the person. Murder wasn’t created. Sin is the action when we willfully choose to disobey God. Sin wasn’t created.

ellion, I hope that makes sense to you.

 

[SVRP]

SVRP:
Postulate 1: God cannot be suprised by our decisions.
Therefore, if god is ever suprised by anything we do, he is fallible. So we accept postulate 1 and it's consequences. God knows what we will decide because he is not fallible.
I have honestly investigated and found it to be nonsense, blurred further by 2000 years of human interpretation and innacuracy. And yes, it is my choice but god is not suprised.
First, sadistic was a poor choice. It implies sexual pleasure from inflicting pain on others.
So, god knows for certain, the results of my investigation, for he cannot be suprised.
The presence of Jesus has no effect on the outcome, and is irrelevant. The fact is, I have investigated, and come to my conclusion. God cannot be suprised.
God knows I am an atheist, he knows why, and is not suprised. And I will go to hell for eternity.
Therefore I conclude that god is evil.
A parent (god) who leaves a child at home, knowing for certain (postulate 1) that he will have a party and wreck the place, despite the dubious promise of a new car if he behaves (Jesus) and then beats the child every day, for the rest of its life for disobeying, is evil.
You have two choices. Your god is either nonexistent or evil. Which is it?

Choosing not to believe in God for whatever reason you desire may support your claim to become an atheist, but your narrow assertive statements do not lead to a logical conclusion that God is evil.
You sound like the gentleman I encountered who proclaimed that man did not land on the moon. He said that he could prove “scientifically” that man could not have landed on the moon. Every though I had a brief debate in defense that it had occurred, he held steadfastly to his conclusions. Again, that was his choice to believe what he wanted.
The resurrection of Jesus is the very cornerstone of the Christian faith and a historic event. I also have done my honest and unbiased research and found the opposite to be true. I became skeptical of every report published and have come to the conclusion that God does exist. Therefore, God is not evil and He does exist.
From your study and my study which do you think is true?

 

[superluminal]

SVRP,

You did not address my logical conundrum. I don't care what study you or anyone has done. It's irrelevant. Given "postulate 1" and the fact that there are believers and nonbelievers, can you show me where my assertions that lead to my conclusion, are false?

 

[ellion]

Yes you are. You were the one making atheist comments.

you are a Nazi.

 

[geeser]

We were given the ability to make a choice, i.e., freedom of choice or free will. The results of our choice is an inherit part in selecting rightly or wrongly.

when?.

Sin is the willful act of disobeying God. It is the reason why God separated His Spirit from man.

when?.

For example: if a man willfully chooses to take another person’s life, did he create murder? Murder is the action that resulted in the death of the person. Murder wasn’t created. Sin is the action when we willfully choose to disobey God. Sin wasn’t created.

certainly not by humanity, but a supernatural omnimax god, has no problem.

Choosing not to believe in God for whatever reason you desire may support your claim to become an atheist, but your narrow assertive statements do not lead to a logical conclusion that God is evil.

what would you know of logic, you cant even grasp simple logic especially when refering to your religious beliefs, if god existed at all the only conclusion is he must have wanted evil.

You sound like the gentleman I encountered who proclaimed that man did not land on the moon. He said that he could prove “scientifically” that man could not have landed on the moon. Every though I had a brief debate in defense that it had occurred, he held steadfastly to his conclusions. Again, that was his choice to believe what he wanted.

and how is this man any different to you and your belief in god and jesus, you have faith in those, which is a Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

The resurrection of Jesus is the very cornerstone of the Christian faith and a historic event.

whether this man jesus existed or not, he could certainly not been a god, or the son of one. but regardless of that there was or has been no original sin, so he was'nt needed, nor was the so called flood, the whole lot is complete bollocks.

I also have done my honest and unbiased research and found the opposite to be true. I became skeptical of every report published and have come to the conclusion that God does exist. Therefore, God is not evil and He does exist.

get yourself re-educated to a logical standard, study you bible, then you will conclude the god of the bible to be a cruel and callous evil thing that wanted man to suffer.

From your study and my study which do you think is true?

it is certainly not yours.

 

[ellion]

Therefore I conclude that god is evil.

then you will conclude the god of the bible to be a cruel and callous evil thing that wanted man to suffer.

this perception of god as evil does not mean that god does not exist. if god has the capacity for evil then perhaps there is something missing form our understanding either of evil or of god.

is evil as we percieve it likely to have the same value to god?

 

[geeser]

this perception of god as evil does not mean that god does not exist.

no of course not, but in my opinion, it's an either or scenario, for the religious.

if god has the capacity for evil then perhaps there is something missing from our understanding either of evil or of god.

theres nothing missing from my understanding of what the bible says god is.
however for the religious they do need to learn that god is synonymous with evil.

is evil as we percieve it likely to have the same value to god?

see above answer.
there is no such thing as a god/gods, for me evil is something we live with, some people do evil things, but eventually it can be subjugated, once religion has been removed from the minds of men, people will come to respect life, and the lives of others, unfortunately this is a near impossible mission, but in another hundred or two hundred years, hopefully there will be peace

 

[Quantum Quack]

Geeser I tend to agree with you

In modern thought, evil is often referred to as a sickness or illness sometimes akin to insanity. I tend to agree with this philosophy.
Mankind is attempting to evolve to a healthier state IMO
The nature of our wrongs can all be rooted in some casuality that has the potential to be eradicated.

When I look at the world I see a world struggling with it's health and do not consider evil in the draconian way that religions tend to look at it.
There is no need to use a God figure to justify evil or good and is just buck passing and absolving ourselves of responsibility for our actions [which is a part of the sickness we all in some way suffer from]

 

[SVRP]

SVRP,
You did not address my logical conundrum. I don't care what study you or anyone has done. It's irrelevant. Given "postulate 1" and the fact that there are believers and nonbelievers, can you show me where my assertions that lead to my conclusion, are false?

Postulate 1: God cannot be suprised by our decisions.
Therefore, if god is ever suprised by anything we do, he is fallible. So we accept postulate 1 and it's consequences. God knows what we will decide because he is not fallible.

In other words God is infallible, that He is incapable of error or making a mistake. Is that what you are saying?

I have honestly investigated and found it to be nonsense, blurred further by 2000 years of human interpretation and innacuracy. And yes, it is my choice but god is not suprised.

To set aside the very cornerstone of the Christian faith and call it “honest” is not being thorough or logical in an investigation, which does not surprise God, nor does it conclude He is evil.

So, god knows for certain, the results of my investigation, for he cannot be suprised.

God’s knowledge of your investigation does not conclude He is evil. It means He knows what you are doing.

The presence of Jesus has no effect on the outcome, and is irrelevant. The fact is, I have investigated, and come to my conclusion. God cannot be suprised.

To call the resurrection of Jesus “irreverent” only labels your investigation as being biased and not very “honest”. Nor does it conclude He is evil.

God knows I am an atheist, he knows why, and is not suprised. And I will go to hell for eternity.

Why choose this when God has given you a way to be reunited with Him?

Therefore I conclude that god is evil.

There are no statements mentioned above to come to this conclusion.

Knowledge of your choices does not conclude that God is evil. Your narrow assertive statements do not lead to a logical conclusion. Therefore, your conundrum should be either God exists or He doesn't exist.

 

[superluminal]

You clearly do not know how to refute a logical argument. That's fine. Forget it.

Why don't you analyze the example of the parent for us? It was in the same post.

 

[SVRP]

You clearly do not know how to refute a logical argument. That's fine. Forget it.

Why don't you analyze the example of the parent for us? It was in the same post.

A parent (god) who leaves a child at home, knowing for certain (postulate 1) that he will have a party and wreck the place, despite the dubious promise of a new car if he behaves (Jesus) and then beats the child every day, for the rest of its life for disobeying, is evil.

But the parent who takes the just punishment for that evil so the child can return home is not evil, but a loving Father.
Jesus Christ took our place for the just punish for our sins so we can be reunited with God. It is the same offer to anyone who is willing to turn back and seek God. It is the same offer He is giving to you. You have the choice to accept it or not.

 

[ellion]

But the parent who takes the just punishment for that evil so the child can return home is not evil, but a loving Father.

it is the punishment that is evil. that which uses pain and fear of pain as a punitve measures is evil.

 

[geeser]

Jesus Christ took our place for the just punish for our sins

what sins?,and why do you think it was just?.

 

[Quantum Quack]

what sins?,and why do you think it was just?.

and that's a damn good point Geeser. What sins and was a crucifixion after a flogging a "just" punishment of a supposedly innocent man.....

 

[the preacher]

SVRP: I've noticed that you've replied selectively, why? are some of the questions, impossible for you to refute.

 

[superluminal]

So far, I see zero logic that says other than:

Yes, god knows what we'll do from the get go (he created us after all, and is infallible) and we are destined to eternal torture, from birth. Mwahahaaa!

Evil.

The only other interpretation is that Jesus was the admission, by god, of a mistake, and god is therefore demonstrably fallible.

God goofed.

So?

 

[gOn]

This is for theists. A simple question.

1) Are we all, as god's creations, part of an intricate plan in which each of us has a role or purpose if you will?

That's all.

Can I get the theists here to give a short answer to this simple but profound question?

Dunno. But the universe started simple and now it has complex creatures like us.

 

[superluminal]

O...k. Thanks gOn. :bugeye:

 

[gOn]

O...k. Thanks gOn. :bugeye:

Anytime.