No Way Out?

anti freeze said:
1. why no freewill? if you put a rat in a maze, you control where the rat can go. no matter if the rat decides to turn left or right at point B or point C, eventually, that rat will end up at the end of the maze. the maze is god's plan, you are the rat [no offense], and "freewill" is your ability to make choices as you proceed through the maze.
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would you put a rat in a maze with one of the exits leading to a bunsen burner under a pan of boiling oil?
 
what's the matter? never had deep fried rat? tastes just like chicken. :D more to the point, i'm not the one implying [or stating explicitly] that there is boiling oil at the end of the maze, but then i'm not god either [sad but true].
 
is that such a bad thing. the majority of people prepare animals for food in some similar way.
 
while i must agree that He is a bastard in the literal sense, i'm not quite sure why He is a he. :p

[it seems much too late for philosophical discussion, no?]
 
antifreeze said:
1. why no freewill? if you put a rat in a maze, you control where the rat can go. no matter if the rat decides to turn left or right at point B or point C, eventually, that rat will end up at the end of the maze. the maze is god's plan, you are the rat [no offense], and "freewill" is your ability to make choices as you proceed through the maze.
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but where is the choice if the route is preordained, do talk sense.
antifreeze said:
2. you cannot call god evil. god is the fountainhead of morals, who are you to question "Him"?
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I/we dont question non-existence, that just stupid, but we can question what the bible says of a god, and god is evil as he brought evil into the world.
and please dont insult my/our intelligence by saying adam and eve did it.
antifreeze said:
3. finally, and most importantly, religion is based on faith, and you cannot "convert" the faithful with logic. but...live and learn. at the least, i admire your quest.
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nobody wishes to convert you , it take's years to treat the mentally ill, and sometimes to no avail.
we are just trying to show the flaws in your thought processes, though most of the time it's futile, because your blinded by faith.
salute.
 
"but where is the choice if the route is preordained, do talk sense."
just because having choice does not influence the final outcome does not mean you do not have a choice.

"I/we dont question non-existence, that just stupid, but we can question what the bible says of a god, and god is evil as he brought evil into the world.
and please dont insult my/our intelligence by saying adam and eve did it."
i was not talking about the "origins of evil" i am saying that "evil" is a moral judgment which you have no authority to arbitrate. please don't put words in my mouth.

"nobody wishes to convert you , it take's years to treat the mentally ill, and sometimes to no avail.
we are just trying to show the flaws in your thought processes, though most of the time it's futile, because your blinded by faith."
uh...what? convert me from what?

"salute."
salute. :D
 
bringing evil in to the world does not make god evil. there are two sides. and what do we know of evil beyond our own microcosmic lives.

as i mentioned briefly above, is frying chicken evil? what about cutting its throat? does buying a pre-slaughtered, pre-fried chicken absolve any of the responsibilty for the murder?
 
they are only made out of tasty, juicey flesh to tempt us to commit the evil offence of burger munching and sausage gobbling. resist these tempataions and be rewarded with a goodly heart that worships lambs.
 
Possibly it all comes down to a perspective.
From Gods perspective the only thing that has freewill is himself. From a Human perspective we only have a "sense" of freedom.
If free will is to be determined in absolutum even Gods freewill is determined by what he effects and what effects him, howver when it comes down to planning we are an effect of his plans. [assuming the pseudo religious perspective]
But even he is an effect of his own plans such is the life of the self inspired.

We are all captives of others plans. In normal life we are continuously a part of everyone elses plans. So I would contend that being a part of Gods plan is not different to being a part of your bosses plans or your wifes or childrens plans.

Freewill is never in my opinion an absolute concept and really only a degree of freedom is ever available. [both for God and human]
 
superluminal said:
Look. I set the premise that god exists as stated by christians and went from there.
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But you also said that Jesus was irrelevant, which from his teachings Christians get there concept from God from. Therefore, you cannot use the God the Christians preach for your conclusions.

superluminal said:
The premise was: If god exists and is omniscient and omnipotent then he knows I'm an atheist and why and still will burn me in hell therefore god (assuming he exists with attributes as stated) is completely, utterly evil.
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If you are judging the Christian God you will also have to consider that He provided a way for you to return to Him, and you have chosen not to.
But if you still consider Jesus as irrelevant, then you are not talking about the Christian God. You will then have to determine the character of the god you are referring to before you presume his actions regarding the knowledge of your atheism. Then you will have to provide an argument for an existence of hell before determining this is where this god is sending you to.

superluminal said:
I'm tired of this anyway. I know there's no god(s) so it dosen't matter. Have fun.
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But declaring your bad logic and not supporting it does matter. Have fun.
 
SVRP said:
But you also said that Jesus was irrelevant, which from his teachings Christians get there concept from God from.
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as I've read thought this thread, I do believe the the xian god was refered to as evil or non existent therefore jesus if he existed must be irrelevant.
SVRP said:
Therefore, you cannot use the God the Christians preach for your conclusions.
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why not he was the one out of thousands, that was refered to.
SVRP said:
If you are judging the Christian God
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no, a god does not exist, it's judging the xian concept of a god.
SVRP said:
you will also have to consider that He provided a way for you to return to Him, and you have chosen not to.
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why, it does not exist the would be foolish.
SVRP said:
But if you still consider Jesus as irrelevant, then you are not talking about the Christian God.
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why not it the one thats been refered to.
SVRP said:
You will then have to determine the character of the god you are referring to
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which is what is been done.
SVRP said:
before you presume his actions regarding the knowledge of your atheism.
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it cant have actions it does not exist. wtf are you talking about.
SVRP said:
Then you will have to provide an argument for an existence of hell before determining this is where this god is sending you to.
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why, there is no hell, it cant send anybody anywhere it does not exist.
SVRP said:
But declaring your bad logic
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what bad logic elaborate.
 
superluminal said:
Do you know what a "premise" is? And what it implies for an argument? No? Too bad.
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The "premise" was not supported by your statements, superluminal, therefore your conclusion is faulty.
 
SVRP said:
The one you have just exhibited, pavlosmarcos.
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I would like to see you elborate it too please.
show us a logical premise that shouts ours down, if you cant do this then dont speak.
 
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