No Way Out?
- Thread starter superluminal
- Start date
Because I am an antiviral. Besides it being good mind exercise, I want to see the virus religioabsurdus ignoratus eradicated from as many minds and institutions as possible because it is counterproductive to free thought and progress.
That's why. Just doing my little part for the greater good.
scientia, ratiocinatio, pax
superluminal said:
Yes, superluminal, we knew it was coming.
IMHO, omniscience may imply “all-knowing” but does not mean “all-controlling”.
For example: suppose we had a bird’s eye view of a city where we could see every road and street that leads in and out of it. At every intersection we can see cars, trucks, and buses make turns or continue straight. We know from their driving where they may be traveling to within the city or if they are traveling through the city. We may know the destination the drivers are going to when they are using the city’s roads, yet we are not controlling them when they reach an intersection and they make a decision on which turn to take.
In this regard God is “omniscient” in that He knows the outcome from the decisions that we make, but does not make our decisions. We still have the freedom to choose when we come to that intersection, i.e., free will. And God still knows the outcome of that choice that we make.
SVRP,
Alright then. A watching entity (god) who has a plan for us, but does not exercise control. Can we destroy god's plan if we are 'rebellious' enough?
You say he knows the outcome of the decision we make, but not which decision we will make. Yes?
So, over time, can we collectively make enough crappy decisions that god will say "Shit! There goes my plan!" ???
Alright then. A watching entity (god) who has a plan for us, but does not exercise control. Can we destroy god's plan if we are 'rebellious' enough?
You say he knows the outcome of the decision we make, but not which decision we will make. Yes?
So, over time, can we collectively make enough crappy decisions that god will say "Shit! There goes my plan!" ???
Last edited:
No Way Out? Continued...
I think this got lost in the thread "No Way Out" (that thread can be closed)
The OP question was:
I think all the theists answered essentially "yes" to the question. So...
OK. The purpose of the question then (which I'm sure you saw coming...)
Yes, it does. I will not tolerate the claims that an omniscient, omnipotent god with an intricate plan allows for free will.
What if we atheists are successful and the entire world turns from 'god' and forgets about religion?
- Won't happen you say? Because gods plan won't allow it? Bullshit. Ya can't have it both ways people. You cannot.
Now, defend your god concept. Do it on the basis that I claim the argument that god is omniscient, omnipotent and has a plan, but humans can exercise free will and damage that plan, is logically self contradictory and bullshit and a six year old wouldnt buy it.
- We can go against gods will but we can't affect his devine plan, you say?
Bullshit. If god is the almighty creator and director of the universe, and we are essential to his plan, then no, we cannot.
A simple illustrative example, and please don't debate trivialities.
Scenario 1) The GOD corporation makes computers. They have a plan to place their computers in every home by insuring perfect customer satisfaction. What their ultimate plan is, we're not sure. To this end they have arranged to monitor every computer and can effect repairs instantly when a deviation shows up. They do this and their plan is ultimately successful. Especially since there's NO competition in the industry.
Scenario 2) The GOD corporation makes computers. They have a plan to place their computers in every home by insuring perfect customer satisfaction. What their ultimate plan is, we're not sure. To this end they have arranged to monitor every computer and can effect repairs instantly when a deviation shows up. However, they have PURPOSELY installed a BIOS subroutine that allows the computer to 'decide' (based on some random events) to take itself out of the monitor grid and do it's own thing (like displaying graphic porn and "Leave it to Beaver" reruns), which of course pisses off the customer and they just do without a computer.
They do this and their plan is, by definition, unsuccessful.
- God has fore knowledge of which computers will "take themselves out" and that too is part of the plan you say?
Fine. That's still scenario one. Still no free will. The GOD corporation, for whatever reason wants certain computers to fail and that is all part of the plan. But it's far WORSE for the computer. The computer that fails, by design, must be immersed in a vat of boiling lead, for an eternity of circuit torture.
Now, defend yourselves. And try to make sense if you can.
I think this got lost in the thread "No Way Out" (that thread can be closed)
The OP question was:
I think all the theists answered essentially "yes" to the question. So...
OK. The purpose of the question then (which I'm sure you saw coming...)
Yes, it does. I will not tolerate the claims that an omniscient, omnipotent god with an intricate plan allows for free will.
What if we atheists are successful and the entire world turns from 'god' and forgets about religion?
- Won't happen you say? Because gods plan won't allow it? Bullshit. Ya can't have it both ways people. You cannot.
Now, defend your god concept. Do it on the basis that I claim the argument that god is omniscient, omnipotent and has a plan, but humans can exercise free will and damage that plan, is logically self contradictory and bullshit and a six year old wouldnt buy it.
- We can go against gods will but we can't affect his devine plan, you say?
Bullshit. If god is the almighty creator and director of the universe, and we are essential to his plan, then no, we cannot.
A simple illustrative example, and please don't debate trivialities.
Scenario 1) The GOD corporation makes computers. They have a plan to place their computers in every home by insuring perfect customer satisfaction. What their ultimate plan is, we're not sure. To this end they have arranged to monitor every computer and can effect repairs instantly when a deviation shows up. They do this and their plan is ultimately successful. Especially since there's NO competition in the industry.
Scenario 2) The GOD corporation makes computers. They have a plan to place their computers in every home by insuring perfect customer satisfaction. What their ultimate plan is, we're not sure. To this end they have arranged to monitor every computer and can effect repairs instantly when a deviation shows up. However, they have PURPOSELY installed a BIOS subroutine that allows the computer to 'decide' (based on some random events) to take itself out of the monitor grid and do it's own thing (like displaying graphic porn and "Leave it to Beaver" reruns), which of course pisses off the customer and they just do without a computer.
They do this and their plan is, by definition, unsuccessful.
- God has fore knowledge of which computers will "take themselves out" and that too is part of the plan you say?
Fine. That's still scenario one. Still no free will. The GOD corporation, for whatever reason wants certain computers to fail and that is all part of the plan. But it's far WORSE for the computer. The computer that fails, by design, must be immersed in a vat of boiling lead, for an eternity of circuit torture.
Now, defend yourselves. And try to make sense if you can.
PLEASE CONTINUE IN THREAD "No Way Out? Continued..." THANKS.
I'm not really a practicing anything but here is my take on God.
He has a plan that has to do with where the human species is going to end up. We have free will to do what we want simply because it doesn't matter.
It's like when men and women argue about the statement that God made us in his image or her image, it isn't about him or her, it is about god imagining what we should look like and creating us with that image.
God already know's how it is all going to end, and again, it has nothing to do with what we do with our lives, it has to do with human progression, and contrary to popular belief, he really does nothing for anyone, he doesn't intercede for anyone in any way, again his whole concern is the big picture and no matter what we do, it won't change the outcome.
of course this is just my opinion and may not be correct in any frame of the word.
He has a plan that has to do with where the human species is going to end up. We have free will to do what we want simply because it doesn't matter.
It's like when men and women argue about the statement that God made us in his image or her image, it isn't about him or her, it is about god imagining what we should look like and creating us with that image.
God already know's how it is all going to end, and again, it has nothing to do with what we do with our lives, it has to do with human progression, and contrary to popular belief, he really does nothing for anyone, he doesn't intercede for anyone in any way, again his whole concern is the big picture and no matter what we do, it won't change the outcome.
of course this is just my opinion and may not be correct in any frame of the word.
you are putting words in my mouth. this could very well happen, I agree, humanity could turn wholly away from God, however this would eventually destroy humanity as well.superluminal said:
We are not essential to His plan, God does not need us.superluminal said:
That was very good, I liked it very much, it was very interesting. You are showing signs of cogitation. Excellent.superluminal said:
The God corporation...hmmm. What is BIOS subroutine, I wonder. hmmm, this is good...i will need to think about this...but an answer will come. Like humans, if the malfunctioning computers keep ignoring the signal from the God corporation to return to Online, than there is nothing that the corporation can do when the general revamping software is sent to recharge each device. The coorporation has written into the hard drive a program Natural Law, sort of like safety run, which can direct the device back to windows, or whatever.you are putting words in my mouth. this could very well happen, I agree, humanity could turn wholly away from God, however this would eventually destroy humanity as well.superluminal said:
We are not essential to His plan, God does not need us.superluminal said:
That was very good, I liked it very much, it was very interesting. You are showing signs of cogitation. Excellent.superluminal said:
The God corporation...hmmm. What is BIOS subroutine, I wonder. hmmm, this is good...i will need to think about this...but an answer will come. Like humans, if the malfunctioning computers keep ignoring the signal from the God corporation to return to Online, than there is nothing that the corporation can do when the general revamping software is sent to recharge each device. The coorporation has written into the hard drive a program Natural Law, sort of like safety run, which can direct the device back to windows, or whatever.i can see your point, that you want to help people to develop a clearer understanding of "life, the universe and everything" and its commendable but this is exactly what these religious institutions are trying to do too.superluminal said:
what is happening is one party saying "look everybody, your all wrong, you cant see the truth . come and see what i can see then you'll understand."
and the other party is saying "look everybody, your all wrong, you cant see the truth . come and see what i can see then you'll understand."
maybe if both parties where less intersted in changing other peoples minds they would have greater freedom of thought and allow others the deserved freedom to think for themselves.
and it seems i am doing exactly that now, so! nail me to the fence.
this doesnt make sense to me.cool skill said:
it seems you are saying that i am asking a dumb question. but you are also saying that i am an athiest. which is a gigantic presumption. where do you get the idea i am an atheist?
then you say that my question is presumptuous what do you believe my question was presuming?
superluminal had no problem answering it what is your problem?
Quote SRVP:
“In this regard God is “omniscient” in that He knows the outcome from the decisions that we make, but does not make our decisions. We still have the freedom to choose when we come to that intersection, i.e., free will. And God still knows the outcome of that choice that we make.”
* And if god looking down on the city saw that a tragic accident was imminent, does he prevent it from happening as in your view, he knows the outcome? If he does not, is he morally questionable? What would you do? Accidents happen.
“In this regard God is “omniscient” in that He knows the outcome from the decisions that we make, but does not make our decisions. We still have the freedom to choose when we come to that intersection, i.e., free will. And God still knows the outcome of that choice that we make.”
* And if god looking down on the city saw that a tragic accident was imminent, does he prevent it from happening as in your view, he knows the outcome? If he does not, is he morally questionable? What would you do? Accidents happen.
If it was a part of Gods plan it woudl be crazy to think that he would intervene in his own machinations.stretched said:
Actually this is something people often don't realise and that is that for every positive action there is a relatively equal negative action. For something positive to be the outcome how much negative action has to take place?
A good example happens in the market place. One business succeeds only because another fails etc etc
The yin needed to balance the yang so to speak.
If God exists he woudl be a master of balancing the negative with the positive and yet maintain an overall positive position.
Wouldn't this be better if we could...
PLEASE CONTINUE IN THREAD "No Way Out? Continued..." THANKS.
PLEASE CONTINUE IN THREAD "No Way Out? Continued..." THANKS.
superluminal said:
Thank you for your reply, superluminal, and a very good question indeed.
Since God is the Creator and we are His creations, as you have written in the beginning, He would already know everything about us that there would be nothing we can do that will surprise Him or any actions we are able to do that He does not have a counter measure to thwart it if He chooses. He knows our tendencies, our habits, our actions, and the intentions of our hearts since He created us. God would still be sovereign no matter what we do.