No Way Out?

[superluminal]

Then my point is covered in the OP. If he already knows "...our tendencies, our habits, our actions, and the intentions of our hearts since He created us..." Then we are known to be "bad product" that god purposely shipped to the field. Right? So the fact that I'm an atheist is essentially prewired into me and I'm destined for hell from birth. Yes?

 

[scorpius]

I'm not really a practicing anything but here is my take on God.

He has a plan that has to do with where the human species is going to end up. We have free will to do what we want simply because it doesn't matter.

if god had this plan,your free will would be an ilusion,it cant exist!
no one knows the future,this all knowing all mighty(concept)of god is a contradiction.
www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/god.html

God already know's how it is all going to end, and again, it has nothing to do with what we do with our lives, it has to do with human progression, and contrary to popular belief, he really does nothing for anyone, he doesn't intercede for anyone in any way, again his whole concern is the big picture and no matter what we do, it won't change the outcome.

if he doesnt do anything for anyone why pray to him

 

[James R]

The two threads titled "No way out?" have been merged.

 

[SVRP]

Then my point is covered in the OP. If he already knows "...our tendencies, our habits, our actions, and the intentions of our hearts since He created us..." Then we are known to be "bad product" that god purposely shipped to the field. Right? So the fact that I'm an atheist is essentially prewired into me and I'm destined for hell from birth. Yes?

I see your point of view, superluminal, but that was not the case in the begininning.
Originally we were made to have a relationship with God and have fellowship with Him, but because sin was allowed to enter into the world that relationship was removed. God had to deal with sin and the sins in our hearts. We are not "bad products" but "incomplete products", like an electrical product that is not plugged into any electricity. We are all sinful and deserve death, but it is still our choice to accept His plan that deals with our sins or not.

 

[ellion]

SVRP, was it gods plan that sin should enter into the world? i think this is the bit where non-believers stumble. if there was a plan for man then it had to include the fall. accidents are not planned.

Originally we were made to have a relationship with God and have fellowship with Him, but because sin was allowed to enter into the world that relationship was removed.

where did sin come from if not from god. if you are going to answer satan then the same question applies. where did satan or the sin in satan come from if not from god?

 

[SVRP]

SVRP, was it gods plan that sin should enter into the world? i think this is the bit where non-believers stumble. if there was a plan for man then it had to include the fall. accidents are not planned.
where did sin come from if not from god. if you are going to answer satan then the same question applies. where did satan or the sin in satan come from if not from god?

ellion, sin is the result of disobedience to God. It is the consequence of choosing to place our will above God’s will. Even Satan fell because he had chosen to place his will above God’s will. Adam & Eve had chosen to disobey, and sin entered the world. But even though God allowed sin to enter the world, He had a plan to redeem man of his sins.

 

[SVRP]

And if god looking down on the city saw that a tragic accident was imminent, does he prevent it from happening as in your view, he knows the outcome? If he does not, is he morally questionable? What would you do? Accidents happen.

Interesting question, stretched. In the above illustration, God is responsible to provide the drivers the law of the road (Thou shalt not drive above the posted speed limit; Thou shalt signal when turning; Thou shalt stop at stop signs & red lights; Thou shalt allow pedestrians to cross at crosswalks, etc.). The drivers are responsible to obey the law of the road in order that accidents do not happen and traffic moves smoothly. But if a driver, or drivers, choose not to obey, then accidents will happen. Should God be questioned on a driver’s disobedience and misbehavior that results into an accident? No, I don’t think so.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Interesting question, stretched. In the above illustration, God is responsible to provide the drivers the law of the road (Thou shalt not drive above the posted speed limit; Thou shalt signal when turning; Thou shalt stop at stop signs & red lights; Thou shalt allow pedestrians to cross at crosswalks, etc.). The drivers are responsible to obey the law of the road in order that accidents do not happen and traffic moves smoothly. But if a driver, or drivers, choose not to obey, then accidents will happen. Should God be questioned on a driver’s disobedience and misbehavior that results into an accident? No, I don’t think so.

say God knew of the build up of pressure in the Earths crust that lead to the tsunami in Indonesia. He knew that a wave of water was going to wipe out 100's of thousands of people.......
I suppose he could be OK with this simply because the crust of the earth was obeying him...laws of nature so to speak....

 

[lixluke]

this doesnt make sense to me.
it seems you are saying that i am asking a dumb question. but you are also saying that i am an athiest. which is a gigantic presumption. where do you get the idea i am an atheist?
then you say that my question is presumptuous what do you believe my question was presuming?
superluminal had no problem answering it what is your problem?

You are an atheist. Atheists believe that there is no point in talking about something that doesn’t exist. They think that talking about God means that they are presumably believing that God exists.

 

[ellion]

cool skill

i am not an atheist. maybe atheist do believe what you say, what do you know about what i believe?

 

[ellion]

ellion, sin is the result of disobedience to God. It is the consequence of choosing to place our will above God’s will. Even Satan fell because he had chosen to place his will above God’s will. Adam & Eve had chosen to disobey, and sin entered the world. But even though God allowed sin to enter the world, He had a plan to redeem man of his sins.

if sin is the result of disobedience to god then was disobedience gods plan for man? where did disobedience come from, was it created by god?

allowing sin to enter the world would mean that sin had an existence independent of gods creation. god then allowed this to enter from some existence exterioir to the created existence.

 

[superluminal]

So far, I have to conclude that to be remotely consistent, theists must declare god to be, at least, fallible and at best, sadistic.

God creates us with a free will knowing for sure that we will use it to disobey him (god cannot be suprised by our choice to do so as has been pointed out). He provides an out in the form of Jesus for those who choose to believe, still leaving substantial numbers of humans to disobey. These humans, who, 2000 years later doubt the divinity of Jesus for very good reasons, and no 'divinity update' in those two millenia, are consigned to the pit. For eternity. God cannot be suprised at all by those who use their intellect honestly (which god endowed each of us with) to come to the conclusion that the universe is ruled by natural law only. Therefore, god actively hates atheists, agnostics, buddhists, muslims, jews, native americans, aboriginies, etc.

If not, then how does god feel about those of us that must go to the pit? Remorse? Pity? Regret? Indifference?

These are all signs of a very fallible diety.

 

[geeser]

ellion, sin is the result of disobedience to God. It is the consequence of choosing to place our will above God’s will. Even Satan fell because he had chosen to place his will above God’s will. Adam & Eve had chosen to disobey, and sin entered the world. But even though God allowed sin to enter the world, He had a plan to redeem man of his sins.

WTF is wrong with you people, ellion posts a good logical reasoning, you just go back to adam and disobeying god.
I posted this in reply to jayleew, on another thread, however it seems you need the a same answers.

God said that if you eat the fruit, you will surely die.

I will pose a question and give you the answer, so you can better understand your god.
could you have a two way conversation with a one year old child, or a chimpanzee, a dog, or even a lion?
no of course not, for they have no understanding of good or evil, or much else for that matter.
therefore they could not understand what god said or what the implication would be, he could just as easy said stop picking your nose, it had about as much meaning.

God put the choice for us to do evil, but evil had not entered. Evil is rebellion against God. Rebellion is disobedience to an authority.

explain how adam and eve could do evil without having any knowledge of good or evil.

There was no evil until Adam disobeyed.

exactly, thay would not of known of evil before they ate of the fruit

That act was evil,

how is that possible if they had no knowledge of good or evil, only god would know it was evil as he wanted it that way.

and thus was born evil from our action, not God's.

thus was born evil from gods actions, not ours.
it's a very simple logic, quite easy to grasp.

In this sense, I'm not sure if the fruit itself was evil at all. In performing the action they learned what it meant to be evil

exactly, your getting it, learned being the operative word.

(which is rebellion against God).

explain how this could be, if they had no knowledge of good and evil before thay ate the fruit. ie no good thoughts or no bad thoughts, they could not do bad deeds or good deeds before thay ate of the fruit, could they.
therefore the only conclusion you can make is, there could not be any original sin, so god must of wanted evil in the world.

 

[SVRP]

say God knew of the build up of pressure in the Earths crust that lead to the tsunami in Indonesia. He knew that a wave of water was going to wipe out 100's of thousands of people.......
I suppose he could be OK with this simply because the crust of the earth was obeying him...laws of nature so to speak....

And according to one minister, God was in the compassion that was shown to the people that lost everything in the tsunami.

 

[SVRP]

if sin is the result of disobedience to god then was disobedience gods plan for man? where did disobedience come from, was it created by god?
allowing sin to enter the world would mean that sin had an existence independent of gods creation. god then allowed this to enter from some existence exterioir to the created existence.

Sin is again the willful act of disobedience to God. It is an inherit risk of our freedom of choice, i.e., free will. It is an action to choose to do something contrary to God’s will. We can choose to go left or right, yes or no, obey or disobey. Whatever we choose we are responsible for the results from our actions due to our choices. God wants us to love Him by choice and not by some “hard-wired” design that was built in us. He took the risk of whether we would love Him freely or not. And He already had the plan to restore our fellowship to Him if we chose to disobey.

 

[SVRP]

So far, I have to conclude that to be remotely consistent, theists must declare god to be, at least, fallible and at best, sadistic.
God creates us with a free will knowing for sure that we will use it to disobey him (god cannot be suprised by our choice to do so as has been pointed out). He provides an out in the form of Jesus for those who choose to believe, still leaving substantial numbers of humans to disobey. These humans, who, 2000 years later doubt the divinity of Jesus for very good reasons, and no 'divinity update' in those two millenia, are consigned to the pit. For eternity. God cannot be suprised at all by those who use their intellect honestly (which god endowed each of us with) to come to the conclusion that the universe is ruled by natural law only. Therefore, god actively hates atheists, agnostics, buddhists, muslims, jews, native americans, aboriginies, etc.
If not, then how does god feel about those of us that must go to the pit? Remorse? Pity? Regret? Indifference?
These are all signs of a very fallible diety.

Your questions and conclusions don’t appear very rational from our brief debate. If He is the sovereign Creator then how can you ascribe Him to be fallible? If He allows us to be reunited with Him through Jesus, then how can you say He is sadistic?
God has shown His power through the resurrection of Jesus, a historic event. An omniscient, omnipotent God needs only one event to show the world He exists and it will stand up to any honest investigation. Whether you want to believe it happened or not is your choice.

 

[ellion]

So far, I have to conclude that to be remotely consistent, theists must declare god to be, at least, fallible and at best, sadistic.

agin i have to point out this is a problem with christian doctrin not a theological problem. saying "theists must declare" is moving the goal posts.

 

[ellion]

Sin is again the willful act of disobedience to God. It is an inherit risk of our freedom of choice, i.e., free will. It is an action to choose to do something contrary to God’s will. We can choose to go left or right, yes or no, obey or disobey. Whatever we choose we are responsible for the results from our actions due to our choices. God wants us to love Him by choice and not by some “hard-wired” design that was built in us. He took the risk of whether we would love Him freely or not. And He already had the plan to restore our fellowship to Him if we chose to disobey.

so do you believe god created sin/disobedience? if you are saying man created sin by disobedcience do you believe the capacity to create sin by disobedeince was created man or by god? if you are saying by man, then was the ability to create the capacity to create sin created by god?

hope that makes sense!

 

[superluminal]

SVRP:

Postulate 1: God cannot be suprised by our decisions.

SVRP:

Since God is the Creator and we are His creations, as you have written in the beginning, He would already know everything about us that there would be nothing we can do that will surprise Him or any actions we are able to do that He does not have a counter measure to thwart it if He chooses. He knows our tendencies, our habits, our actions, and the intentions of our hearts since He created us. God would still be sovereign no matter what we do.

Therefore, if god is ever suprised by anything we do, he is fallible. So we accept postulate 1 and it's consequences. God knows what we will decide because he is not fallible.

If He allows us to be reunited with Him through Jesus, then how can you say He is sadistic?

An omniscient, omnipotent God needs only one event to show the world He exists and it will stand up to any honest investigation. Whether you want to believe it happened or not is your choice.

I have honestly investigated and found it to be nonsense, blurred further by 2000 years of human interpretation and innacuracy. And yes, it is my choice but god is not suprised.

SVRP:

He knows our tendencies, our habits, our actions, and the intentions of our hearts since He created us.

First, sadistic was a poor choice. It implies sexual pleasure from inflicting pain on others.

So, god knows for certain, the results of my investigation, for he cannot be suprised.

The presence of Jesus has no effect on the outcome, and is irrelevant. The fact is, I have investigated, and come to my conclusion. God cannot be suprised.

God knows I am an atheist, he knows why, and is not suprised. And I will go to hell for eternity.

Therefore I conclude that god is evil.

A parent (god) who leaves a child at home, knowing for certain (postulate 1) that he will have a party and wreck the place, despite the dubious promise of a new car if he behaves (Jesus) and then beats the child every day, for the rest of its life for disobeying, is evil.

You have two choices. Your god is either nonexistent or evil. Which is it?

 

[superluminal]

ellion,

agin i have to point out this is a problem with christian doctrin not a theological problem. saying "theists must declare" is moving the goal posts

Sorry. You are correct. We are talking about the christian god here.