So your solution, going back to snake oil salesmen, is better?
Additionally, Obamacare is just getting started. So those numbers are not applicable to Obamacare. They are applicable to the old pay for service monopolist model.
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New, Improved Obamacare Program Released On 35 Floppy Disks
- Thread starter Michael
- Start date
Additionally, Obamacare is just getting started. So those numbers are not applicable to Obamacare. They are applicable to the old pay for service monopolist model.
joepistole
A good portion of those who say on surveys that they are against Obamacare are saying that because it doesn't go far enough. I think we will have single payer in 8-12 years. Healthcare for profit makes no more sense than police for profit or firemen for profit. The military/industrialists that Eisenhower warned against shows the evils of the policies Micheal promotes. We need less greed and Anarchy, not more.
Grumpy
A good portion of those who say on surveys that they are against Obamacare are saying that because it doesn't go far enough. I think we will have single payer in 8-12 years. Healthcare for profit makes no more sense than police for profit or firemen for profit. The military/industrialists that Eisenhower warned against shows the evils of the policies Micheal promotes. We need less greed and Anarchy, not more.
Grumpy
joepistole
A good portion of those who say on surveys that they are against Obamacare are saying that because it doesn't go far enough. I think we will have single payer in 8-12 years. Healthcare for profit makes no more sense than police for profit or firemen for profit. The military/industrialists that Eisenhower warned against shows the evils of the policies Micheal promotes. We need less greed and Anarchy, not more.
Grumpy
I have to mostly agree. I favor single payer. But single payer is still a for profit system. Single payer isn’t the fascist socialist communist nefarious government run single provider healthcare system which billionaires like the Koch brothers have been spending hundreds of millions on advertising trying to convince Americans that it is.
I would like to see a single payer system, but given the sensitivity of our political system to special interests, I don’t see single payer for the foreseeable future. There are too many powerful special interests who would oppose it. But I suppose we can always hope. We really need to change our political system so we can get a government that works for the people of America not just some of the time, but all of the time.
Ever hear of FRAUD Joe? In Joe's simple world we either have Progressive Fascism or "go back" to leeches. In Joe's world allowing people the freedom to buy and sell healthcare services must be outlawed because some idiot, somewhere, once, a hundred years ago, go conned by a 'snake oils' salesman. So instead of strengthening our civil liberties, nope, we have to hand them over to the State for our own good so we can be 'regulated'/gamed by the State and the cronies that inhabit it - or we all go back to drinking snake-oil. Yup, right back to snake-oil. Because Americans seem to be smart enough to 'vote' but are too stupid not to buy and drink snake oil. Even though fraud is illegal.
I think more than the squiggles are getting the best of you. You literally live in La La land with the rest of these dumb-arses. Have to hand it to Public "School" it does get one thing right.
Oh, don't worry Joe, I don't disagree - ObamaCare IS just getting started. And when it's done, in 15-25 years time, iatrogenic deaths will top the list. It's not that far off being #1 as it is.
American Public Hospitals will be as slummy as American Public Housing and as useless as American Public Education.
But hey, at least those functional illiterates will have a nice cushy highly paid mandated State job protected by their Public Unions.
You really live in a Walt Disney movie don't you?
Greed is an internal motivation. It's not a factor in whether a trade is valued or not. What do you care if your doctor is greedy or not greedy when it comes to competently removing a cancer? Would it be better if the doctor was ungreedy - but failed to competantly cure you? Greed is just some simple minded idiots Disney narrative. Almost ALL people want to be highly paid, to live in a nice house, to drive to work and not walk, to eat nice food and not feel like their starving all day, to take nice vacations and spend as much free time with their family and friends. This isn't 'greedy' - it's normal. To say we need less "Greed" conjures up cartoon characters of Scrooge McDuck. Which, given you still don't understand what the world Anarchy means, seems to fit you quite well. Not to mention, from many 3rd world people's perspective - YOU ARE greedy. That PC you use - it was made by them, and consumed by you. You're the greedy SOB.
By definition, Republic and Anarchy only differ in that Anarchy is voluntary interaction while Republic is forced interaction. So, when translated into plain English, your sentence reads as thus: We need less *insert marvel comic super-villain* and more violence. Which is to say, it's an oxymoron. As for your babbling about profit - I see now why change generally takes the form of a generation crawl as we all wait for the ignorance of each generation to die off (probably in a State hospital due to negligence).
You attended a Public School didn't you?
Ever looked up the definition of fraud? Apparently not, because if you had you would know that snake oil salesmen were not frauds then and they are not frauds now. So your “fraud” get out of jail free pass doesn’t work. It has never worked. But that doesn’t keep you from trying to play it in order to fill some gaping holes in your ideologies. Fraud is more than just a false statement or misrepresentation. Hell it was, all republican politicians along with a few democrats would be in jail.
And because snake oil salesmen were not frauds, that coupled by the fact, that it’s kind of difficult to recover from death, is why regulatory bodies – the very regulatory bodies you hate - were created (e.g. The Food and Drug Administration).
There are two kinds of fraud, civil and criminal. The difference between the two is something called criminal intent. In order for it to be criminal, criminal intent must exist. And laws regarding fraud vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Some jurisdictions are pretty lax with regards to fraud (e.g. bank and check fraud).
“Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.
These elements contain nuances that are not all easily proved. First, not all false statements are fraudulent. To be fraudulent, a false statement must relate to a material fact. It should also substantially affect a person's decision to enter into a contract or pursue a certain course of action. A false statement of fact that does not bear on the disputed transaction will not be considered fraudulent.” http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fraud
Anyone could go down the street, open shop, and practice medicine and they would not be guilty of fraud. Persons practicing medicine without a license would be criminally guilty of practicing medicine without a license, but they would not be guilty of fraud. That is why states implemented licensing laws and related regulations. So your libertarian “frauds get out of jail free card” still doesn’t work. Using “fraud” to patch up gaping holes in your ideology just doesn’t work for those with half a functional brain.
The bottom line here is at the very least, you don’t understand the meaning of the words you use. Add that to the many other things you don’t understand like finance, economics, and business. But you never let your ignorance or facts get in the way of your libertarian proselytization.
Ah, no. In Joe’s simple world, he believes in policies based in empiricism that have a reasonable or in the case of Obamacare, a proven track record of making healthcare more effective and efficient. And he believes in using words as they are defined in the dictionary – a radical notion for libertarians and other demagogues. And Joe doesn’t believe in extremism. Joe isn’t a libertarian, republican or democrat. Joe is a pragmatist.
If you are a product of private schools, I’d suggest you ask for your money back. I have attended both private and public schools and actually I think the public schools were better. And there are a number of great Americans and scientists who have received their education in public schools (e.g. James Watson – discover of DNA structure, Linus Pauling – Nobel Prize Chemistry, Steven Jobs – founder Apple, et al.).
Why should I worry?
Except that as I have told you before, the US doesn’t have public housing any longer; it was an experiment that failed back in the 70’s and 80’s. It has been replaced by something called section 8 housing where rent is paid by the government to private landlords. And healthcare has nothing to do with public housing, unions, or state jobs.
The unfortunate reality for you is that Obamacare has been successfully used in Massachusetts and Switzerland for many years now. It hasn’t produced “slummy” public hospitals. That is the unpleasant reality for you my friend.
I train and award the doctorates. I find it hard to believe someone who has a doctorate cannot manage to understand the difference between private/anarchy/voluntarism and public/government/violence. Thus, I'll assume you can. Yes, I've spoken to some seemingly intelligent individuals who passionately believe in sky-daddy. Most children grow up into old people who unquestioningly believe the same illogical irrational questionable memes they were taught to as children. This must be the case with you.Michael
Just until I went to college and got my doctorate.
You have never gone to school at all, right? It would explain a lot of your idiotic posts.
Grumpy
It's really amazing to imagine a group of people were able to create a limited government in the first place. I'd say it was a once-off historical even, one that cuts against the very nature of society.
It's pathetic to think someone with an ounce of intelligence would happily shaft their children, grand-children and great grandchildren with their medical bills after screwing them over on affordable housing, employment opportunities, hell, even the bio-integrity of the very planet itself. But, then again, most doctorates of the silent/baby-boomer/me-me-me-mine-mine-mine generation were paid for by bonds, 30 year T-bonds sold on the labor of their children and grandchildren. So, to expect anything less and ask for that small sliver of integrity, was asking for too much.
See Joe, this is why I said much earlier, the solution is we end this experiment that was the USA. That's the only viable, peaceful option. We take a vote. All of you who feel you need a nanny to hold your hand because maybe someone somewhere once in the 1800s might have sold some gullible dumb-arse hick and hand full of magical beans and some water, telling them it's a magical "snake-oil" cure-all AND that want to live in a society made up of these morons who cannot manage tie their shoes and seek justice through arbitration using contract law, fraud laws and courts - please step over the left. Those who actually think it's possible to structure society peacefully with an EXTREMELY LIMITED government without having to resort to violence each and every time there's a story of some dumb-arse hick (who probably can't spell nanny-state) that was conned and didn't seek retribution through the courts - can all step to the right.
Done and done.
One more time Joe: The #3 reason you will leave this planet will be your USSA State sanctioned State qualified State hyper-regulated medical care. As in, IT will kill you in an untimely manner. As in, you would have been better off staying at home and doing the surgery yourself.
If you think that's bad now - it'll be much much worse in the Public Hospitals. Just as it is elsewhere. Want to know where NOT to have surgery (if you have to take a chance and have no idea what to do)? In a Public Hospital. The chances are - it isn't going to go well compared with a private hospital.
You'll see. It'll take 15-25 years, but by that time, Public Healthcare in the USSA will be the very LAST place you'll seek healthcare. Mark my words, you'll have Americans preferring to take their chances DIY in their house with an Apple iRobot self-surgery (made in China) rather than step one toe into a Public Hospital. I don't have to wonder if this is going to happen - it IS going to happen. When it does, please try to place the blame on yourself and not the mythical "Koch" brothers.
Oh, and for the record, you'll not find Section 8 rental slums in Japan or Switzerland. They are not us. We are not them.
Done and done.
Sorry Joe, but you are wrong. ObamaCare will be as safe as Public Housing and as useless as a Public "High" School diploma in the hands of our State qualified functional illiterates. You are not a pragmatist. You are a naivest. You live in la la land.
One more time Joe: The #3 reason you will leave this planet will be your USSA State sanctioned State qualified State hyper-regulated medical care. As in, IT will kill you in an untimely manner. As in, you would have been better off staying at home and doing the surgery yourself.
If you think that's bad now - it'll be much much worse in the Public Hospitals. Just as it is elsewhere. Want to know where NOT to have surgery (if you have to take a chance and have no idea what to do)? In a Public Hospital. The chances are - it isn't going to go well compared with a private hospital.
You'll see. It'll take 15-25 years, but by that time, Public Healthcare in the USSA will be the very LAST place you'll seek healthcare. Mark my words, you'll have Americans preferring to take their chances DIY in their house with an Apple iRobot self-surgery (made in China) rather than step one toe into a Public Hospital. I don't have to wonder if this is going to happen - it IS going to happen. When it does, please try to place the blame on yourself and not the mythical "Koch" brothers.
Oh, and for the record, you'll not find Section 8 rental slums in Japan or Switzerland. They are not us. We are not them.
Let's stop and think about this shall we?
If I have your argument correct, you maintain that 'ObamaCare' is not going to transfer wealth from the X/Y and Millennial Generations and use it to pay for their greedy sloth grandparents' healthcare, but, is instead a self-sustaining insurance policy just like any other. OK then, why the use of force? IF we live in a "Free" Democratic Republic, THEN it's up to the people in said "Free" society to create and provide goods and services for one another - including health insurance. Or to go without insurance. That's that whole 'free' thing. Of course, Americans hate freedom with a passion, so I suppose ObamaCare makes good sense to most of them (or whatever passes as sense between commercials). Nevertheless, yours is an 'economic' argument. So, here we have, according to Joe, a Public Health Insurance Program, no different than any other (oh, it's even 'better' than the 'free' market because we all know how competent our public bureaucrats are - just look at the fine job they did on the billion dollar website a teenager could have put together in his/her spare time). Yes, we have ObamaCare and it doesn't transfer wealth - but works perfectly fine just as any other health insurance - only it's 'fairer' (and was even written by the insurance companies).
You maintain that ObamaCare is 'economical'. That ObamaCare is not stealing from one group of people (the young) and giving to another (their greedy grandparents) - but is actually providing for everyone as any insurance would do so in a self-sustaining manner.
So, again, WHY the need to resort to force? I mean, if this is a such a good deal - then why shove a gun in someone's face and say "Pay"? Why do that Joe? Go on, do tell.
Of course, we don't actually live in a 'free' society. We live in a hyper-regulated society. One complete with Central Planners who with one hand bail out their buddies using their Central Bank (for the good of society) and with the other hand start and lose never-ending Wars in various other countries (for the good of society). The "unfortunate reality for you is that Obamacare is nothing but another baby-boomer wealth transfer scheme. Your generation has been doing this bullshit your entire lives. Who knows? Maybe you'll get away with it? Maybe you'll steal the last bit of wealth from your kids, their kids and their kid's children and melt this f*cking planet on your way out. That'll be your legacy. A generation of greedy thieves who came into this world given everything, took much more, and left the planet to rot in their filth, pollution and waste.
We both would like a fair equitable healthcare system. To me this will come about through free-markets/aka: free people freely trading with one another using sound money within the law - these are what create wealth. This is HOW the USA became wealthy. It's called LIMITED government for a reason. You on the other hand think equality can only be meted out the barrow of a gun - based on force. This will only steal as much wealth as there is and eventually collapse in on itself like the oxymoron it is.
You think the USSA is Switzerland? Ha! Try a little closer to Greece minus the good food, history and culture.
Sorry Joe, but clever and witty words may get O-blah-blah votes from the idiocracy that poses as a voting public, but word's do not conjure goods and services out of either. Those come from free people allowed to freely trade with one another. Exactly the process most public schooled Americans have come to hate. Let's see how History writes (rewrites) this pathetic chapter.
LOL, here is the rub, I can point to, and have, the success of the Obamacare model. You can as you have done ignore reality and ignore the facts but it won't change them.
This isn't about wealth transfers, fairness, or equitability. This is about implementing a more efficient and more effective healthcare system.
And as has been pointed out to you numerous times, government taxation, government fiscal policy is not theft. Taxation is the cost of services provided. You may not like how the government spends its money. But being a citizen is kind of like being a stockholder in a democracy. We all have one vote. This isn't Putin's empire. This is a democracy.
AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!
LOL
The GOVERNMENT is about being efficient ?!?!? The Government?!?! Economical!?! HAHAHAHAHAAAAA.... put down the crack-pipe and step away from the MSNBC. Whatever you tell yourself to sleep at night Joe. This is a classic case of babyboomer generational theft. Plain and simple. The government said the phony wars it made up would cost us $50 billion, the price tag on the wars alone is running (currently) at over $5 TRILLION (which it lost due to total and utter incompetence). Can you see the difference between $50 billion and $5000 billion Joe? DO you? Because the government is NOT efficient, just like an other Centralized Force - it's an inefficient Loser. It's as 'economical' as a gambling addict. The only reason it was able to pay for all the goodies your generation stole your entire lives was by selling T-bonds on your children's and grandchild and great grandchildren's labor. Well well, looks like that little con-game is coming to an end.
Government Efficiency!!!.... what a joke.
The Government had to bastardize the actual US Constitution to make Labor Tax legal. It most certainly IS stealing.
No Michael it is a simple matter of facts.
Oh, you have 'factual' evidence of how efficient ObamaCare will be implemented .... even through the closing date was just a couple days ago. No Joe, you don't have any empirical data. What you have are a couple of hand fulls of O-blah-blah "Hope and Change" propaganda.
The government ruined education, to the point where Public unioned teachers were getting 3 full months off in the 'summer holidays' AND being paid a 13th month bonus AS the city around them was sinking into the financial abyss. What was the graduatation rate? It was 33%. What was the functional illiteracy rate of those graduating from their "Public" highschool with their a magical "State" Certificate recognizing their mastery of 'Higher' education? A whooping 49% functional illiteracy. Which makes good sense, given many of their teachers are similarly illiterate. A classic case of blind leading the blind.
How about the $100s of billions wasted on the phony war in Vietnam? You remember, the one that killed a bunch of women and children for the crime of not wanting to be "Free" like us, over here in the USSA. Or the TRILLIONS wasted killing women and children, and losing to them, in more made-up phony wars in the middle east?
Oh, there's plenty of 'facts' and 'evidence' Joe. Evidence that shows the government is totally inefficient and utterly incompetent. It couldn't even manage to run a simple website at a cost of a billion dollars that the free-market could build and run at a fraction of the cost. As a matter of fact, they ended up calling upon the PRIVATE sector to fix their mess. Just as they do in their Wars they lose. They call in private contractors when they actually want something done.
Like I said, you live in La La Land. You seriously buy into the hype of "Change You Can Believe In". Well, at least this much is true. You CAN believe the bullshit if you so choose to do so. As you have.
ObamaCare will be as inefficient a mess as the website it launched under. Public healthcare will be as crap as everything else the Government messes up. Overpriced and likely to kill you. But, gee, lucky us. We get to live with another gun in our face "For our own good" because "We use the roads".
Do enjoy the ObamaCare Joe.
I will share my experience
The website was very easy to use and signup was easy. The rates sound alright, but the coverages are somewhat lame. I make 25k a year so far which is just awful and something I need to change by going back to school for a real career however my subsidy was 57 USD, it also warned me if I take it all I may need to pay some back at the end of the year. I ended up taking 40 USD instead and will probably never use the insurance unless something terrible happens physically to me.
Also please note I do have a condition which is untreatable in the most part called Interstitial Cystitis / Painful Bladder Syndrome. I went to a Urologist and he basically accused me of lying about it so I have been trying alternatives like homeopathy and vitamins. Obamacare won't help me there, it can't really help me with this issue so I partly feel it's unfair to force coverage on people if it can't help them in any way.
That's my experience so far, I took the Blue Choice Silver PPO 004 and it costs me 193 a month with that subsidy of 40 usd, oh well
The website was very easy to use and signup was easy. The rates sound alright, but the coverages are somewhat lame. I make 25k a year so far which is just awful and something I need to change by going back to school for a real career however my subsidy was 57 USD, it also warned me if I take it all I may need to pay some back at the end of the year. I ended up taking 40 USD instead and will probably never use the insurance unless something terrible happens physically to me.
Also please note I do have a condition which is untreatable in the most part called Interstitial Cystitis / Painful Bladder Syndrome. I went to a Urologist and he basically accused me of lying about it so I have been trying alternatives like homeopathy and vitamins. Obamacare won't help me there, it can't really help me with this issue so I partly feel it's unfair to force coverage on people if it can't help them in any way.
That's my experience so far, I took the Blue Choice Silver PPO 004 and it costs me 193 a month with that subsidy of 40 usd, oh well
Go back and read my previous posts.
Pre-Obamacare healthcare insurance wouldn’t cover that condition either. Your homeopathy treatments wouldn’t be covered by my platinum corporate healthcare plan either.
Silver plans cover 70% of healthcare costs. Healthcare in the US is expensive. Obamacare isn’t going to fix that immediately, but over time healthcare costs should come down.
"Plans in the Marketplace are primarily separated into 4 health plan categories — Bronze, Silver, Gold, or Platinum — based on the percentage the plan pays of the average overall cost of providing essential health benefits to members. The plan category you choose affects the total amount you'll likely spend for essential health benefits during the year. The percentages the plans will spend, on average, are 60% (Bronze), 70% (Silver), 80% (Gold), and 90% (Platinum). This isn't the same as coinsurance, in which you pay a specific percentage of the cost of a specific service" https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/health-plan-categories/
To put this into some additional perspective, my insurance premium this year is $7,200. Now granted, I'm in a higher insurance plan and I don't get a subsidy. But healthcare in the US is expensive no matter how you look at it.
Here we agree on something. Thanks to rent-seeking, hyper-regulated disease care in the USSA is low on quality (#3 reason you'll die is the 'care' itself) and it's extremely expensive. But, this is how Merikan's like it. See, most Merikan's hate personal freedom because, one time, once, in the 1800's someone somewhere heard about a mythical 'snake's-oil' salesman.