New, Improved Obamacare Program Released On 35 Floppy Disks

[madanthonywayne]

Yeah, except Obamacare does none of those things. As we disscussed before, Jullie gets more insurance and it costs her less. The audacity of Obamacare! It offers more insurance and lower costs. How horrible!

Again, you are demonstrating the fundamental conceit of a statist. Central planners can not possibly be as efficient as the free market. They can not possibly match the multitude of thoughts of actions consumers make every day to determine what they want and at what price and quality and quantity.

Obama and his Democrat brethren imposed their vision of healthcare upon the nation. They passed it on a straight party line vote filled with righteous certainty that the nation would ultimately see the wisdom of their actions once they saw Obamacare in action.

Well, it didn't work out that way. The roll out has been a disaster characterized by incompetence and one delay after another. Many people are realizing that they were lied to and they can't keep their insurance or their doctors. For most, this is an inconvenience or even a hardship, but for some it's a matter of life and death.

So, driven by a desire to defend Obamacare at any cost, you now feel it necessary to personally attack such people. To call them liars. Well, here are her own words:

Through AFP spokesman Scott Hagerstrom, Boonstra communicated her concerns with her new plan.

Uncertainty dogs her — especially having been lied to once by the president. Where her canceled plan’s premiums once covered all her costs, she now must plan for out-of-pocket expenses. Those expenses are capped but will double to $10,200 if she goes out of her network — a not-uncommon need for cancer patients, whose treatment often changes — for a doctor or tests. Of her five cancer drugs, she has already discovered that one (Loratadine) is not covered. Detroit News columnist Dan Calabrese also unearthed the fact that glaucoma and “long-term care and nursing care are not covered.”

“She has been bedridden, had to sell her house, give up her teaching career,” says Hagerstrom. “She liked her insurance and now has to relive the uncertainty of five years ago.”

“[My critics] choose to ignore the problems inherent with high out-of-pocket limits and prescriptions that aren’t covered for a person like me,” wrote Boonstra. “My new plan could mean wildly fluctuating and front-loaded costs in the first few months of the year. I chose my old plan — the one that Obamacare canceled — specifically so I could budget for the same monthly costs with certainty.”

“If I do not receive my medication, I will die,” worries Boonstra, who was invited to the State of the Union address as the guest of Representative Tim Walberg (R., Mich.). “I believed the president when he said I could keep my health-insurance plan. I feel lied to. Congressman Peters, your decision to vote for Obamacare jeopardized my health.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/373429/war-julie-boonstra-henry-payne/page/0/1

 

[Grumpy]

madanthonywayne

Again, you are demonstrating the fundamental conceit of a statist. Central planners can not possibly be as efficient as the free market. They can not possibly match the multitude of thoughts of actions consumers make every day to determine what they want and at what price and quality and quantity.

Health care in no way is a free market, in the first place. And in the second case it depends on what metric you measure efficiency with. If it's the amount of profit you can squeeze from an activity, you're right, the free market is very efficient at prying the last dime from the grasp of the rubes. But if you measure the efficiency of a healthcare system by the outcomes for all the people, the single payer systems are much more efficient, covering everyone at much lower cost. Unlike comparative shopping for a car or a refrigerator, unlimited freedom of choice in healthcare is not a real possibility, though there is limited freedom in some things for those with excess income, how does one pay for a second opinion if one is struggling to pay for the first?

Obama and his Democrat brethren imposed their vision of healthcare upon the nation. They passed it on a straight party line vote filled with righteous certainty that the nation would ultimately see the wisdom of their actions once they saw Obamacare in action.

Well, it didn't work out that way. The roll out has been a disaster characterized by incompetence and one delay after another. Many people are realizing that they were lied to and they can't keep their insurance or their doctors. For most, this is an inconvenience or even a hardship, but for some it's a matter of life and death.

The people who now can afford real health insurance for the first time disagree with your mischaracterization(all 4.5 million of them, and the 12+ million who now have Medicaid in the states with the non-morons as governors). Why do you think insurance companies should be able to refuse to cover pre-existing conditions, cut people off if they actually try to use the insurance, put yearly and lifetime caps on how much they will pay or cancel older and sicker people's coverage in order to boost their profits? There was no "shopping around" in these pre ACA conditions, all the insurance companies did this and made obscene profits while taxpayers payed for Emergency Room care for all those who had no insurance coverage. How is it efficient to spend millions on lawyers and agents to try to cheat your customers out of their coverage? That's theft, not business. Much like sub-prime loans and default credit swaps. Efficient, my big ol' butt. Single payer, like most of the civilized world has today(England has had it since 1948)covers everyone, pays for all needed care and if you have more money, you can buy better care, you don't need to be getting better care at the expense of some people getting NO care(until they show up dying in the Emergency Room). And
Single Payer costs less and covers all, that is the measure of efficiency in health care, not some insurance company middlemen's profits. Insurance companies provide zero healthcare, it is more efficient to pay health care providers directly, that why the whole world(at least the civilized parts)pays less and gets more healthcare than we do.

Well, here are her own words

Her words are proven, exposed and ideologically motivated lies, why repeat them? Could it be ideologically motivated myopia? What you say you see is not what is, it's what you believe. It's a sickness that we need to rid our country of.

Grumpy

 

[Repo Man]

Wow MAW, your divorce from reality is pretty nearly complete. What color is the sky in your world?

 

[Repo Man]

Julie Boonstra, 49, starred last month in an emotional television ad sponsored by Americans for Prosperity that implied Democratic U.S. Rep. Gary Peters’ vote for the Affordable Care Act made her medication so “unaffordable” she could die. Peters of Bloomfield Township is running for an open U.S. Senate seat against Republican Terri Lynn Land.

The Detroit News and fact checkers last month cast doubt on the accuracy of the TV ad. On Monday, Boonstra acknowledged which health plan she chose, offering the first evidence of cost savings.

Boonstra said Monday her new plan she dislikes is the Blue Cross Premier Gold health care plan, which caps patient responsibility for out-of-pocket costs at $5,100 a year, lower than the federal law’s maximum of $6,350 a year. It means the new plan will save her at least $1,200 compared with her former insurance plan she preferred that was ended under Obamacare’s coverage requirements.

A Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan spokesman said the insurer welcomes a chance to help members understand their benefits and alleviate concerns.

“We are here to help people like Ms. Boonstra to work their way through adjusting to the health plans we are now offering them,” the Blue’s Andy Hetzel said. “If there are questions ... they should call.”

Boonstra’s old plan cost $1,100 a month in premiums or $13,200 a year, she previously told The News. That didn’t include money she spent on co-pays, prescription drugs and other out-of-pocket expenses.

By contrast, the Blues’ plan premium costs $571 a month or $6,852 for the year. Since out-of-pocket costs are capped at $5,100 for in-network doctors and hospitals, including deductibles, the maximum Boonstra would pay this year for all of her cancer treatment is $11,952.

When advised of the details of her Blues’ plan, Boonstra said the idea that it would be cheaper “can’t be true.”

“I personally do not believe that,” Boonstra said.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140310/LIFESTYLE03/303100100#ixzz2wE1T7jjO

This is what happens when you are blinded by ideology; when confronted with inconvenient facts, you simply deny them.

 

[Write4U]

Julie Boonstra, 49, starred last month in an emotional television ad sponsored by Americans for Prosperity that implied Democratic U.S. Rep. Gary Peters’ vote for the Affordable Care Act made her medication so “unaffordable” she could die. Peters of Bloomfield Township is running for an open U.S. Senate seat against Republican Terri Lynn Land.

The Detroit News and fact checkers last month cast doubt on the accuracy of the TV ad. On Monday, Boonstra acknowledged which health plan she chose, offering the first evidence of cost savings.

Boonstra said Monday her new plan she dislikes is the Blue Cross Premier Gold health care plan, which caps patient responsibility for out-of-pocket costs at $5,100 a year, lower than the federal law’s maximum of $6,350 a year. It means the new plan will save her at least $1,200 compared with her former insurance plan she preferred that was ended under Obamacare’s coverage requirements.

A Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan spokesman said the insurer welcomes a chance to help members understand their benefits and alleviate concerns.

“We are here to help people like Ms. Boonstra to work their way through adjusting to the health plans we are now offering them,” the Blue’s Andy Hetzel said. “If there are questions ... they should call.”

Boonstra’s old plan cost $1,100 a month in premiums or $13,200 a year, she previously told The News. That didn’t include money she spent on co-pays, prescription drugs and other out-of-pocket expenses.

yes we can come up with a few examples which are unuual for some reason as an argument against ACA, but noone addresses that FACT that millions currently DO NOT HAVE INSURANCE IN THE FIRST PLACE. They are unable to fashion alternative that alliviates an immeditae crisis intervention without becoming a burden on the tax payer.

Put something on the table, other than the not doable free market system, which is in the business of making a profit on the plight of sick people.

 

[Michael]

One in three Americans who lack health coverage plan to remain uninsured

Obamacare's Dropouts Are Middle-Age Men

The headline number from the telephone survey of more than 3,000 people is that 34 percent of respondents without insurance say they plan to stay that way, even after being told that the new law requires them to get covered or pay a penalty.

American don't like being free, therefor we can't have free-market medicine. We can't have free-market insurance. We can't have free-market money. Nope. Thus, we will never enjoy high-quality medicine at low costs affordable by everyone in a prosperous society. That's not what American's want. They prefer to live in a hyper-regulated world where saying something make's it so. We should call this word-world "La La Land". In "La La Land" just saying "You don't care for the poor!" instantaneously conjures resources out of the void and presents them to the poor. In La La Land the middle class 'cares' so much for the poor that they use every trick in the book to regulate them out of competing in the market - and then wonder why healthcare costs so much.

In La La Land AMA rent-seeking hyper-regulation puts healthcare at #3 likely reason to die, and that's just as good as it gets. In La La Land Americans still think they live in a "Free" society and like to refer to things like "For Profit Healthcare" instead of "Rent-Seeking Healthcare" because saying "Profit" means they can whine a bit more without having to think too much. See, thinking is hard to do in La La Land with everyone singing Fa la la, la la la, la la la.

Yes, we middle-class America are the "Freest" Nation on Earth. Why, we're so free - we fight 'The Good Fight' to free poor people everywhere - just look at the ME. Oh, but we're above a free society/free-market ourselves - particularly in medicine; I mean, Jesus H Christ, could you imagine living in a country where people were free to interact and trade with one another with sound money and law to protect property (body) and against fraud?!?! How ridiculous!!! F*ck!? You think it's OK for ANYONE to practice medicine?!? Even out of garage?!? *scoffs*. No No No. We 'Civilized' Americans do things a bit differently. We vote. We vote for Hope and Change (we like the Hope, not so much the Change - that sounds like work). In that way, the magic of a polling booth pulled lever either to the Left or Right means our Saviors: Bush, Clinton, Junior, Obama *wearing a cape and big letter O on his chest* can wave their magic hands in the air, conjure resources into existence, and deliver us all to the La La Land of milk and honey. Where words are good enough. And 'good intentions' just happen because we want them to happen.

Didn't you watch Elysium? It's quite clear the 'rich' (see: Koch Brothers) have ALLLLLLL the resources in the world (somewhere up in the sky - hidden).... and all we poor people have to do is get them to 'share' some of it with us. And *poof* just like that, magical shuttles start landing in the midst of the poor and delivering instant magical medicine.

 

[Michael]

Generational Theft

Grandma and Grandpa say thanks for the ObamaCare and all the other goodies. Life was God Damn good. Richest Generation of humans to grace God's green earth (well, not so green now, but meh, it was fun while it lasted). Do pickup the bill on your way home deary.

[video=youtube;ZbhnehSBBeo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbhnehSBBeo[/video]

 

[pjdude1219]

Obamacare's Dropouts Are Middle-Age Men

American don't like being free, therefor we can't have free-market medicine. We can't have free-market insurance. We can't have free-market money. Nope. Thus, we will never enjoy high-quality medicine at low costs affordable by everyone in a prosperous society. That's not what American's want. They prefer to live in a hyper-regulated world where saying something make's it so. We should call this word-world "La La Land". In "La La Land" just saying "You don't care for the poor!" instantaneously conjures resources out of the void and presents them to the poor. In La La Land the middle class 'cares' so much for the poor that they use every trick in the book to regulate them out of competing in the market - and then wonder why healthcare costs so much.

In La La Land AMA rent-seeking hyper-regulation puts healthcare at #3 likely reason to die, and that's just as good as it gets. In La La Land Americans still think they live in a "Free" society and like to refer to things like "For Profit Healthcare" instead of "Rent-Seeking Healthcare" because saying "Profit" means they can whine a bit more without having to think too much. See, thinking is hard to do in La La Land with everyone singing Fa la la, la la la, la la la.

Yes, we middle-class America are the "Freest" Nation on Earth. Why, we're so free - we fight 'The Good Fight' to free poor people everywhere - just look at the ME. Oh, but we're above a free society/free-market ourselves - particularly in medicine; I mean, Jesus H Christ, could you imagine living in a country where people were free to interact and trade with one another with sound money and law to protect property (body) and against fraud?!?! How ridiculous!!! F*ck!? You think it's OK for ANYONE to practice medicine?!? Even out of garage?!? *scoffs*. No No No. We 'Civilized' Americans do things a bit differently. We vote. We vote for Hope and Change (we like the Hope, not so much the Change - that sounds like work). In that way, the magic of a polling booth pulled lever either to the Left or Right means our Saviors: Bush, Clinton, Junior, Obama *wearing a cape and big letter O on his chest* can wave their magic hands in the air, conjure resources into existence, and deliver us all to the La La Land of milk and honey. Where words are good enough. And 'good intentions' just happen because we want them to happen.

Didn't you watch Elysium? It's quite clear the 'rich' (see: Koch Brothers) have ALLLLLLL the resources in the world (somewhere up in the sky - hidden).... and all we poor people have to do is get them to 'share' some of it with us. And *poof* just like that, magical shuttles start landing in the midst of the poor and delivering instant magical medicine.

IS there an argument there or just more ranting manifesto? the simple fact is free market for profit health care is consistently out performed by non profit health care( you know in the whole keeping people alive category). study after study shows this. its simple really profit motive and top notch paitent outcomes do not go hand in hand. the free market is good with luxeries for everything else it tends to fail at.... majorly. this is so first world problems in action. Micheal a typical disaffected first worlder whose never encountered anything remotely like opression. wealthy white and male isn't dealing well with his privilage eroding. the simple fact is mixed economies are the freest in the world. free market and command economies fail to generate freedom. they both generate oligarghs with privilage and the rest of us who don't have freedom.

 

[pjdude1219]

Again, you are demonstrating the fundamental conceit of a statist. Central planners can not possibly be as efficient as the free market. They can not possibly match the multitude of thoughts of actions consumers make every day to determine what they want and at what price and quality and quantity.

statism and central planing do not go hand in hand. the free market isn't inherently efficient. its inherently maximises profits not the same thing. The free market has been tried in health care it failed.

Obama and his Democrat brethren imposed their vision of healthcare upon the nation. They passed it on a straight party line vote filled with righteous certainty that the nation would ultimately see the wisdom of their actions once they saw Obamacare in action.

flat out lie. I really don't know why you were mad a mod concidering your tendency to flat out lie. ACA was a republican idea. the dems wanted an efficient cheap single payer systems the right didn't wanted it so republican romney care was the compromise was offered. the rightwing attacked because fuck the country its more important to make sure nothing the dems do works.

 

[joepistole]

madanthonywayne



Health care in no way is a free market, in the first place. And in the second case it depends on what metric you measure efficiency with. If it's the amount of profit you can squeeze from an activity, you're right, the free market is very efficient at prying the last dime from the grasp of the rubes. But if you measure the efficiency of a healthcare system by the outcomes for all the people, the single payer systems are much more efficient, covering everyone at much lower cost. Unlike comparative shopping for a car or a refrigerator, unlimited freedom of choice in healthcare is not a real possibility, though there is limited freedom in some things for those with excess income, how does one pay for a second opinion if one is struggling to pay for the first?

The people who now can afford real health insurance for the first time disagree with your mischaracterization(all 4.5 million of them, and the 12+ million who now have Medicaid in the states with the non-morons as governors). Why do you think insurance companies should be able to refuse to cover pre-existing conditions, cut people off if they actually try to use the insurance, put yearly and lifetime caps on how much they will pay or cancel older and sicker people's coverage in order to boost their profits? There was no "shopping around" in these pre ACA conditions, all the insurance companies did this and made obscene profits while taxpayers payed for Emergency Room care for all those who had no insurance coverage. How is it efficient to spend millions on lawyers and agents to try to cheat your customers out of their coverage? That's theft, not business. Much like sub-prime loans and default credit swaps. Efficient, my big ol' butt. Single payer, like most of the civilized world has today(England has had it since 1948)covers everyone, pays for all needed care and if you have more money, you can buy better care, you don't need to be getting better care at the expense of some people getting NO care(until they show up dying in the Emergency Room). And
Single Payer costs less and covers all, that is the measure of efficiency in health care, not some insurance company middlemen's profits. Insurance companies provide zero healthcare, it is more efficient to pay health care providers directly, that why the whole world(at least the civilized parts)pays less and gets more healthcare than we do.



Her words are proven, exposed and ideologically motivated lies, why repeat them? Could it be ideologically motivated myopia? What you say you see is not what is, it's what you believe. It's a sickness that we need to rid our country of.

Grumpy

Well done Grumpy!

 

[joepistole]

Grandma and Grandpa say thanks for the ObamaCare and all the other goodies. Life was God Damn good. Richest Generation of humans to grace God's green earth (well, not so green now, but meh, it was fun while it lasted). Do pickup the bill on your way home deary.

[video=youtube;ZbhnehSBBeo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbhnehSBBeo[/video]

Identity politics much?

All those hundreds of thousands of dollars I spent on my kids, all the tens of thousands of dollars I currently spend every year in taxes which are used pay to educate, feed, clothe, and house other people's kids. Boy now that truly is generational theft. We should all be hermits living alone, that way we would never have to pay for someone else's expenses. We should never have kids and when we become infirm and unable to work, we should just look for the nearest Soylent Green processing plant. God knows the little bastards are unproductive usurpers who don't support themselves and foment intergenerational theft. And by God, we cannot have that. And when people get old and become unproductive and can no longer support themselves, we ought to let them starve and freeze too...survival of the fittest you know.

Does that sound disgusting and absurd? If so, then you need to stop advocating such. We are all in this game of life together. We are stronger together. We are more prosperous together, so stop worrying about you paying for someone else's expenses. Someone has paid for yours.

 

[joepistole]

Again, you are demonstrating the fundamental conceit of a statist.

Just what is a statist in your view? Was Eisenhower a statist? He was responsible for many of the post war social programs and building of the interstate road system. How about FDR, was he a statist? He saved the nation from a great depression and successfully led the nation in a world war. How about Abraham Lincoln, was he a statist? He fought a civil war to preserve a strong central government and the power of the central government over state governments. How about George Washington, was he a statist? He and his fellow founding fathers dumped the weak central government model in favor of a stronger central government model.

Central planners can not possibly be as efficient as the free market. They can not possibly match the multitude of thoughts of actions consumers make every day to determine what they want and at what price and quality and quantity.

I agree, but we don’t have central planners – one of those damn minor details. So I don’t see your point here or how it irrelevant. Obamacare doesn’t set prices nor does it constrain supply. It does reform Medicare. Instead of paying for quantity, regardless of quality, under Obamacare, Medicare will pay more for higher quality healthcare services and products. Are you threatened by a little competition?

Obama and his Democrat brethren imposed their vision of healthcare upon the nation. They passed it on a straight party line vote filled with righteous certainty that the nation would ultimately see the wisdom of their actions once they saw Obamacare in action.

Well actually, it was the republican vision of healthcare Obama and his democratic brethren imposed on the nation. It was the republican version of healthcare reform right up until Obama and the democrats decided to support it. And you know that, you are being more than a little disingenuous. And democrats passed Obamcare into law with several republican amendments included in the bill. And yes, democrats do think that the truth will prevail over republican misinformation. I that is why I think people like you and those who fund the Republican Party and the republican entertainment industry fear most – the truth.

Well, it didn't work out that way. The roll out has been a disaster characterized by incompetence and one delay after another. Many people are realizing that they were lied to and they can't keep their insurance or their doctors. For most, this is an inconvenience or even a hardship, but for some it's a matter of life and death.

The website rollout was an unmitigated disaster, of that there is no doubt and democrats freely acknowledge the website rollout was a bust. Unfortunately for you and those of your ilk and the billionaires who finance your party and have spent countless millions on ads to spread misinformation and fear about Obamacare, people are realizing that Obamacare was not and is not the ogre you and your ilk have painted it to be. Even Rush Limbaugh and many other Republican demagogues have said as much.

So, driven by a desire to defend Obamacare at any cost, you now feel it necessary to personally attack such people. To call them liars. Well, here are her own words:

Actually, no, the truth is not an attack, it is the truth. The facts are Julie and those like her are getting more insurance, better insurance and at less cost. So the lies about unaffordability and all the other claims Julie and those like her have made are just not true. It’s a simple matter of facts and truth. I’ll ask you again, who wrote Julie’s script? Who paid Julie for her performance? How much did they pay Julie for her performance? Those are all questions you would rather not answer. And that is why you have repeatedly failed to answer them. Julie's falsehoods have been clearly documented by many folks. There hasn't been one anti-Obamacare ad paid for and produced by your party's financiers that has not been debunked by credible journalists - another one of those damn minor details folks like you like to ignore.

 

[Michael]

the simple fact is free market for profit health care is consistently out performed by non profit health care( you know in the whole keeping people alive category). study after study shows this.

Actually, study after study shows that private healthcare is superior to public healthcare. This can be seen in general surgery in Australia to laser eye surgery in Canada. Time and time again, private healthcare brings down costs while increasing quality.

It should be noted, you seem to be under the illusion that the USSA has private healthcare - it doesn't. We have hyper-regulated fascistic healthcare. Thus, healthcare in the USSA is of low-quality and cost a lot of money. Just like everything else the State attempts to use force to solve - it's also ruined healtchare in the USSA. Other example's of State FUBAR would include: The War on Terror projected to cost $50 billion, current cost: $8.5 trillion, final cost? Your children and grandchildren.

Thanks to the AMA's successful lobbying in a bid at securing Rx for rent-seeking (50 years ago) we now have the largest prison population in the world, and prescription drugs now kill far more people than illegal drugs (more Americans died of Rx than motor vehicle accidents) and thanks to AMA rent-seeking, death by healthcare is now your #3 likely reason to die in the USSA.

Which is just exactly how you like it.

its simple really profit motive and top notch paitent outcomes do not go hand in hand.

wrong again. See laser eye surgery in CA.

the free market is good with luxeries for everything else it tends to fail at.... majorly.

Given there are no free-markets anywhere in the world, and the USSA is hyper-regulated, even using fiat/state currency, I'd like to see you make any semblance of a case for this. What you mean to say is you 'think' maybe Fascism does a good job at providing some semblance of economized luxury goods and as for healthcare, you're clueless.

Also, unless you consider the products from Walmart a 'luxury' you're simply deluded. Is fast-food a luxury? Jesus, you live in upside-down land.

this is so first world problems in action. Micheal a typical disaffected first worlder whose never encountered anything remotely like opression. wealthy white and male isn't dealing well with his privilage eroding.

Actually, I benefit from the current system. And that has nothing to do with me being male or of fair complexion.

free market and command economies fail to generate freedom. they both generate oligarghs with privilage and the rest of us who don't have freedom.

One more time, I know this is kind of hard to grasp: We do NOT have FREE markets. We live in a hyper-regulated State as Citizens OF that State and are forced to use the State's currency in our highly regulated interactions with one another. America is anything BUT free. We're the furthest thing FROM being free. Fascism is more apt. Thus, to be correct, you meant to say, Fascist State's, such as the USSA, creates Oligarchy.

Not freedom.
Fascism.

You may want to try and get these two concepts straight in your head.

the simple fact is mixed economies are the freest in the world. free market and command economies fail to generate freedom.

It should be noted that by 'mixed' economies you're saying 'fascism'. IOWs, we agree on something. You think a mix of Corporate-State control over markets is preferable to free people having to offer value for sound money. Yes, we agree, Americans do not want to live free, they instead want to live in a 'Mixed' hyper-regulated fascist State as tax-cattle/Citizens of said State and they want to confuse the word 'profit' with 'rent-seeking' because keeping the two terms straight in their mind requires mental effort and most American Tax-Cattle are not up to the task of thinking (see: Americans cheer-lead Helicopter Ben as he bails out the top 0.001% to the tune of unknown trillions to be paid back later through inflation and tax).

You are living proof most Americans hate the very notion of freedom. Hell, your sentence is so convoluted confusing 'freedom' with 'fascism' I must conclude most Americans don't even know what civil liberty even is!

"Mixed" economies are freer?!? WTF???
Crony-Capitalism is freer than FREE market Capitalism?!?!
Jesus Horus Christ!
In the minds of most Public Educated Americans, living with fiat/state-force currency, in hyper-regulated markets, with a lot of State force being used against a lot of innocent people is preferable to living in a free society, with maximized civil liberties, sound money and law that protects private property (body) and free people *GASP* keep the fruit of their labor.

But, of course, Americans do like to complain and whine about why their lives are not prosperous and getting less so by the day/minute. AND they like to pull the magic level to the Left of Right and then feel like they 'did' something. Hey... How's the Obama working out for you? Not so good? How about 8 years of Hitlary. Yes, let's true her on for 8 years. That's sink this f*cker.



In 15-25 years Public Hospitals will be as safe as Public Housing and as useful as a Public "High" School degrees. Which is a good thing, all those functionally illiterate Public School graduates will need quotes and nice safe Public Unioned Hospitals to work in with good benefits, lots of vacation time and lots of job security while you work 80+ hours a week paying for it all. If you thought those 'free' roads come at a high cost - just wait to ObamaCare sends you a bill.

....and, onwards we'll progress in good ole' Progressive USSA until we're a third world shit-hole many of our inner cities have already become (see: Detroit).

 

[Michael]

Identity politics much?

All those hundreds of thousands of dollars I spent on my kids, all the tens of thousands of dollars I currently spend every year in taxes which are used pay to educate, feed, clothe, and house other people's kids. Boy now that truly is generational theft. We should all be hermits living alone, that way we would never have to pay for someone else's expenses. We should never have kids and when we become infirm and unable to work, we should just look for the nearest Soylent Green processing plant. God knows the little bastards are unproductive usurpers who don't support themselves and foment intergenerational theft. And by God, we cannot have that. And when people get old and become unproductive and can no longer support themselves, we ought to let them starve and freeze too...survival of the fittest you know.

Does that sound disgusting and absurd? If so, then you need to stop advocating such. We are all in this game of life together. We are stronger together. We are more prosperous together, so stop worrying about you paying for someone else's expenses. Someone has paid for yours.

Maybe you missed the Chart Joe? Your generation owns 80% of all the wealth and assets. If ANYONE were to pay - it'd be your generation.

Ever hear of the word "Universalizing" Joe? You know, like 'Natural Liberty'. Well, can we live in a society where 'everyone' owns a house? Is home ownership something that can be 'Universalized'? How about Slum-Lordship? Can we live in a society where everyone can be a Slum-Lord? Can that principle be 'Universalized'?


Don't worry, there'll come a day when some politician decides to run on a platform of raising taxes up to 99% on various 'segments' of society. Oh, it won't start out at 99%. Maybe 40%. Then 50%. Then 70%. Everyone hates the Slum-Lords Joe. Something pretty easy to Demagogue. And hey, once society has 'Taxed' all the assets from the 'unproductive' rent-seeking class (for the "Good of Society") we'll have nicely built Public Housing to shovel you all into. Picture something like the cheaply made Daycare centers and aesthetically sickening Public Schools that sort of look a bit like a Public Prison. Add in the smells of ammonia, bleach and various bowel movements. Getting the picture?

Yeah, let's see how you like Progressive Democracy when the "moral" middle class turns on the less productive segments of society. Let's see where this "Progressive" train leads. Because, there's one thing I know for sure, Government never stops growing. Ever. And someone has to pay. Your generation has most of the money. Be expecting a bill soon.


How does it feel to know your generation was the very first in American history to take more for themselves leaving their kids and grandchildren poorer? For the first time in American history the children of your generation will be LESS prosperous than their parents. And with 80% of the total wealth you have the gall to absurdly suggest your kids, grandkids and great grandkids should pick up your medical bills? Talk about self-centered perversion. For the first time in the nation's history, the population is actually shrinking. Just like any other animal population under severe stress, American population is actually contracting. That stress is you. You and your idiotic schemes to give yourselves more goodies like free NFL football stadiums your kids are paying for that don't even exist! Yes, let's see how the functionally illiterate children quota'd into Public Hospital Unions deal with and 'care' for the elderly in 15-25 years time. If State "Certified" medicine is our third likely reason to die today, what do you think will be #1 then? Do enjoy the ObamaCare.

 

[Michael]

CBO: ObamaCare Price Tag

March 14, 2012 Congressional Budget Office: Updated Estimates for the Insurance Coverage Provisions of the Affordable Care Act
May 13, 2013: CBO’s Estimate of the Net Budgetary Impact.
2014.... The Gods ONLY KNOW....

ACA was projected to cost nearly $800 billion. Then the Government added $1 TRILLION MORE ($940 billion) on to what was originally estimated. Now everyone seems to agree it's well over a trillion. Maybe as high as $2.6 TRILLION.

WTF?!? A little over a year goes by and we add on a few hundred billion more!? Another year and .... who the hell knows.


Can't wait to see what the Public Hospital Public Unions go on strike for. Fair Pay! We want a 4 month vacation like Public Teachers! Fully Paid! And a 13th Month Bonus too!! And fair work rights for the Functionally Illiterate! Fair Fair Fair!!!

GAAAAAAASP
No? Say it's not true? Whaat? The Babyboomer run State sticking their children and grandchildren and great grandchildren GenX/Y and Millennials with another $2 trillion in medical bills. Noooozeeeses.... I can't believe that? Oh, and then there's the $20 TRILLION needed to bail out the rich. Oh, and then there's the $80 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities. Plus the never ending War on "Terror" we're waging (and losing) by terrorizing most of the middle east - that's only another $10 Trillion or so. Then there's the running cost for millions and millions and millions of boondoggles like the $50 billion per year wasted on the Department of "Education". Not to mention all the money needed to keep us safe by spying on us. Like the $20 billion dollar-a-pop NSA facilities cropping up all across the Land of the Free: USSA.

Yeah, if it weren't for those greedy f*cking Koch brothers and there lifetime wealth of around $50 billion, we'd all be living like Kings and Queens. Why can't they see the Government is here to help! Help us with Patriot Acts and Wars on Drugs and Private-Public Prisons. You know, for the Good of Society. Jesus... f*cking Koch-Suckers! Screwing it all up for the little people. THEY use the roads!!!

 

[Michael]

Next Shoe To Drop: Obamacare Will Increase The Cost Of Employer-Sponsored Insurance

From: Forbes

The Obama Administration’s Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services released a six-page report predicting that Obamacare could cause premiums to increase for nearly two-thirds of small- to medium-sized businesses. “This results in roughly 11 million individuals whose premiums are estimated to be higher as a result of the ACA and about 6 million individuals who are estimated to have lower premiums,” CMS writes. But CMS’ projections almost certainly understate the problem, one that will begin to affect millions of workers in the second half of 2014.

CMS.gov report here


Damn those Koch-Brothers!!! THEY use the roooooooaaaadddddssssss.....!!!!!


Welcome to American Fascism: Middle-Class Style.

 

[Grumpy]

Ah, the smell of idiocy in the morning!

Micheal

Welcome to American Fascism: Middle-Class Style.

It is the 1% who are the Fascists here, Fascism is the incestuous relationship between government and money. When money becomes speech you are living under Fascism. The Germans used prisoners for slave labor just like our prison/industrialist prisons for profit. That's not the middle class doing anything, that's the greedy bastards you support with your idiocy.

Grumpy

 

[joepistole]

Maybe you missed the Chart Joe? Your generation owns 80% of all the wealth and assets. If ANYONE were to pay - it'd be your generation.

We have been working, earning and saving for 40+ years too. The younger generations are just getting started. I am not going to cry tears for you because you were not born a trust fund baby like your idols the Koch brothers.

Ever hear of the word "Universalizing" Joe? You know, like 'Natural Liberty'. Well, can we live in a society where 'everyone' owns a house? Is home ownership something that can be 'Universalized'? How about Slum-Lordship? Can we live in a society where everyone can be a Slum-Lord? Can that principle be 'Universalized'?

As usual Michael you are not making any sense.

Don't worry, there'll come a day when some politician decides to run on a platform of raising taxes up to 99% on various 'segments' of society. Oh, it won't start out at 99%. Maybe 40%. Then 50%. Then 70%. Everyone hates the Slum-Lords Joe. Something pretty easy to Demagogue. And hey, once society has 'Taxed' all the assets from the 'unproductive' rent-seeking class (for the "Good of Society") we'll have nicely built Public Housing to shovel you all into. Picture something like the cheaply made Daycare centers and aesthetically sickening Public Schools that sort of look a bit like a Public Prison. Add in the smells of ammonia, bleach and various bowel movements. Getting the picture?

So you want to throw the homeless the down and out onto the streets to live? That is your solution to poverty? By the way, public housing projects no longer exist in the US. They have gone the way of the Dodo bird. It has been replaced with Section 8 housing. And unlike you, I have actual experience working in the slums of this nation. I worked as an EMT in one of the roughest cities in the country for a decade. You name it, I have probably seen it. I don’t think you could handle it.

As for taxes, when I was born the highest tax bracket was about 99% (state and federal). It didn’t harm us. It didn’t harm the country. It was a time of unprecedented prosperity and technological advances.

Yeah, let's see how you like Progressive Democracy when the "moral" middle class turns on the less productive segments of society. Let's see where this "Progressive" train leads. Because, there's one thing I know for sure, Government never stops growing. Ever. And someone has to pay. Your generation has most of the money. Be expecting a bill soon.

My generation has been paying the bills of this nation for 40+ years. So paying the bill is nothing new. Two, this isn’t a progressive train. And you are too young to know what a progressive train looks like. I suggest you go back to the 70’s.

How does it feel to know your generation was the very first in American history to take more for themselves leaving their kids and grandchildren poorer? For the first time in American history the children of your generation will be LESS prosperous than their parents. And with 80% of the total wealth you have the gall to absurdly suggest your kids, grandkids and great grandkids should pick up your medical bills? Talk about self-centered perversion. For the first time in the nation's history, the population is actually shrinking. Just like any other animal population under severe stress, American population is actually contracting. That stress is you. You and your idiotic schemes to give yourselves more goodies like free NFL football stadiums your kids are paying for that don't even exist! Yes, let's see how the functionally illiterate children quota'd into Public Hospital Unions deal with and 'care' for the elderly in 15-25 years time. If State "Certified" medicine is our third likely reason to die today, what do you think will be #1 then? Do enjoy the ObamaCare.

Well for starters, all of those charges are just not true. But, you were never one to let little things like truth and reality mess up you ideological visions. Come back with some real facts and we can have a discussion. I am always amazed at how disconnected you can be.

 

[pjdude1219]

Actually, study after study shows that private healthcare is superior to public healthcare. This can be seen in general surgery in Australia to laser eye surgery in Canada. Time and time again, private healthcare brings down costs while increasing quality.

again a lie. studies have shown private healthcare spend more adminstratively with poor outcomes for paitents.

It should be noted, you seem to be under the illusion that the USSA has private healthcare - it doesn't. We have hyper-regulated fascistic healthcare.

only to you and yours. the rest of us go be you know words definitions and thus know otherwise. Were not a fascist state please quit misusuing words. and secondly regulation doesn't change ownership we have private healthcare and it sucks because its private.

and Thus, healthcare in the USSA is of low-quality and cost a lot of money.

again false low quality comes from being overworked and highcost comes from the super high demand and the free market. you can't exactly shop around for a sucking chest wound.

Just like everything else the State attempts to use force to solve - it's also ruined healtchare in the USSA.

No it didn't. the problems with us health care are traced to the private aspects. a single payer system would reduce quality and decrese cost. and please quit refering to the us as the USSA it only reinforces your childishness.

Other example's of State FUBAR would include: The War on Terror projected to cost $50 billion, current cost: $8.5 trillion, final cost? Your children and grandchildren.

started by free market extremists like your self.

Thanks to the AMA's successful lobbying in a bid at securing Rx for rent-seeking (50 years ago) we now have the largest prison population in the world,and prescription drugs now kill far more people than illegal drugs (more Americans died of Rx than motor vehicle accidents) and thanks to AMA rent-seeking, death by healthcare is now your #3 likely reason to die in the USSA.

I think your missing like 5 or 6 premises there but hey when as not having logic on your side stopped you in the past. the AMA is a private body which shows how your free market really functions. powerfully wealthy groups use their power to prevent compitition. it happens in all unregulated economies. secondly the high prison population is do to for profit prisons and is also not part of the healthcare debate.

Which is just exactly how you like it.

Right i forgot your a libertarian there fore god and get to tell me what i like. I want real freedom not the pretend freedom you want.

wrong again. See laser eye surgery in CA.

They can happen together but they aren't mutually inclusive like you pretend. the factor for both are in contention. they rarely overlap because a postive choice to gain one is a very often a negative choice for the other.

Given there are no free-markets anywhere in the world, and the USSA is hyper-regulated, even using fiat/state currency, I'd like to see you make any semblance of a case for this. What you mean to say is you 'think' maybe Fascism does a good job at providing some semblance of economized luxury goods and as for healthcare, you're clueless.

Also, unless you consider the products from Walmart a 'luxury' you're simply deluded. Is fast-food a luxury? Jesus, you live in upside-down land.

No their are no free markets according to micheal definitions according to the actual definitions their are. your hypocrisy is old. all western countries have market economies where free market forces are in action. are they your idealized 100% the way you want no but that doesn't mean they aren't free markets. In your intellectionlly dishonest head if something isn't 100% unregulated robber baronism you can't say its reflective of the market but .0001% state influence is enough to damn the government. also I'm using the luxury as in not a necessity. not in its economic sense or the sense of being expensive. and a good portion of what walmart sells are necessities. food and clothes

Actually, I benefit from the current system. And that has nothing to do with me being male or of fair complexion.

are current for the wealthy system does do wealthy people like your self good. but as a male of european orgin you have thousands of years of privilage behind where you are today. so do i as i'm white and male. difference is I don't pretend that isn't an advantage

One more time, I know this is kind of hard to grasp: We do NOT have FREE markets.[ We live in a hyper-regulated State as Citizens OF that State and are forced to use the State's currency in our highly regulated interactions with one another.

One more time since its hard for you to grasp: yes we do. ok terchnically on the strictist no we don't. but than again no economy is free from government monopolies or authority but that kind of free market is a fairy tale. but in the usage of the term yes we are. we can make just about anything we want. the government just requires it not to kill people in ways it isn't supposed to.

America is anything BUT free.

sure we are. for any meaningful definition of the word we're free.

We're the furthest thing FROM being free.

really now so how in meaningful terms are we opressed?

Fascism is more apt.

your libertarians friends are getting us there.

Thus, to be correct, you meant to say, Fascist State's, such as the USSA, creates Oligarchy.

Oligarchy predates fascism so as usual your wrong. Oligarchs create unfree systems not the other way around.

Not freedom.
Fascism.

You may want to try and get these two concepts straight in your head.

I do mainly cause unlike you I actually know what these words mean.

It should be noted that by 'mixed' economies you're saying 'fascism'.

no I mean a mixed economy. a regulated market. the only stable economic system the world has produced for the modern world.

IOWs, we agree on something.

No your twisting my words cause your dishonest. or maybe your incapable of actually understanding anything other than libertarian thought.

You think a mix of Corporate-State control over markets is preferable to free people having to offer value for sound money.

we do have sound money. and your the one who supports corporate power. I want to break it.

Yes, we agree, Americans do not want to live free,

please quit putting words in my moth. if your going to debate me I require you to act like an honest adult.

they instead want to live in a 'Mixed' hyper-regulated fascist State as tax-cattle/Citizens of said State and they want to confuse the word 'profit' with 'rent-seeking' because keeping the two terms straight in their mind requires mental effort and most American Tax-Cattle are not up to the task of thinking (see: Americans cheer-lead Helicopter Ben as he bails out the top 0.001% to the tune of unknown trillions to be paid back later through inflation and tax).

We aren't fascist or hyperegulated and typical post condecendingly attacking anyone who doesn't bow before your ideology. most americans do think but thanks to your corporate buddies critical thinking isn't taught. and most people don't conflate rent seeking and profit.

You are living proof most Americans hate the very notion of freedom.

Why because I'm not stupid enough to believe your libertarian lies.? cause I'm smart enough to know not to trust an elitist who tells me how i need to be "free"?

Hell, your sentence is so convoluted confusing 'freedom' with 'fascism'

Only because you don't know what fascism is.

I must conclude most Americans don't even know what civil liberty even is!

DO YOU? because your equating civil liberty with purely economics which isn't the case.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/civil+liberty?s=t

"Mixed" economies are freer?!? WTF???

yes. we are freer now than the robber baron era are we not.

Crony-Capitalism is freer than FREE market Capitalism?!?!

your the one who supports the former.

Jesus Horus Christ!

I didn't realize that jesus had the head of a falcon.

In the minds of most Public Educated Americans, living with fiat/state-force currency, in hyper-regulated markets, with a lot of State force being used against a lot of innocent people is preferable to living in a free society, with maximized civil liberties, sound money and law that protects private property (body) and free people *GASP* keep the fruit of their labor.

public education isn't bad. all the asians beating us are publically educated. wow comparing a lie to a fantesy. nice comparison.

But, of course, Americans do like to complain and whine about why their lives are not prosperous and getting less so by the day/minute. AND they like to pull the magic level to the Left of Right and then feel like they 'did' something. Hey... How's the Obama working out for you? Not so good? How about 8 years of Hitlary. Yes, let's true her on for 8 years. That's sink this f*cker.

Wow how mature.

In 15-25 years Public Hospitals will be as safe as Public Housing and as useful as a Public "High" School degrees. Which is a good thing, all those functionally illiterate Public School graduates will need quotes and nice safe Public Unioned Hospitals to work in with good benefits, lots of vacation time and lots of job security while you work 80+ hours a week paying for it all. If you thought those 'free' roads come at a high cost - just wait to ObamaCare sends you a bill.

[ you mean romneycare but why let facts bother you.

....and, onwards we'll progress in good ole' Progressive USSA until we're a third world shit-hole many of our inner cities have already become (see: Detroit).

detroit failed cause it was a single industry town. it wouldn't have mattered the politics.

 

[joepistole]

From: Forbes



CMS.gov report here


Damn those Koch-Brothers!!! THEY use the roooooooaaaadddddssssss.....!!!!!


Welcome to American Fascism: Middle-Class Style.

"Summary
The Affordable Care Act requires all non-grandfathered health insurance coverage in the individual and group markets to be guaranteed issue and guaranteed renewable. In addition, all non-grandfathered insurance plans and policies in the individual and group markets can vary premium rates based only on age, family status, geography, and tobacco use, and the variation in the age and tobacco use factors is limited. This new premium rating requirement will impact the premiums paid by individuals and families working for small employers who offer health insurance. Specifically, we have estimated that the premium rates for roughly 11 million people will increase and about 6 million people are expected to experience a premium rate reduction due to sections 2701 through 2703 of the PHS Act." CMS

The documents you referred to relate to the ability to rate healthcare policies. You know, charge higher risk groups for the higher risk. That is a market philosophy which you have previously endorsed. So it is kind of odd to hear you now complain about it. And let me remind you, 6 million people out of a country of more than 316 million people isn't that much.