My unanswered questions about Christ

You'd only know that if he had have written anything, which he didn't.. Oh well.



Eh? jesus didn't write anything because if he did the priest would have to rely on writing to read jesus words to illiterate church goers?

You make no sense.

Jesus could read. He read scripture in the synagogue. Obviously, a man who can read can write. The Gospels also mention Jesus writing something in the sand. Case closed, Jesus could write.
However, Jesus' followers mostly could not write. Ergo, Jesus used speech to communicate with them - not writing. Does this mean Jesus never wrote a single thing? Hardly likely. Jesus I am sure wrote many things, e.g. grocery lists? But, did Jesus write any of his teachings down? Perhaps. But, they are lost to antiquity.
The other point I am making is that there in no inconsistency between the fact that Jesus didn't write anything down and the fact that later persons wrote his words down. Obviously, if Jesus is dead, he isn't going to be preaching anymore to his followers. The leaders of the early church, especially in places far from Jerusalem need written documents to be read to the illiterate followers.
 
Of course, Jesus could have written things down. But, that is not the way of leaders. Common sense tells me that leaders, especially biblical style prophets didn't write things down themselves. Jesus' audience was mostly illiterate. You can't communicate with the illiterate by writings. Makes perfect sense to me why Jesus didn't write anything down.

How do you know that what you are saying is true ? Is it not a questrion of attempting to fill a gap with an explanation of your own devising ?

So why was the OT written ? Were people more literate in those times ?

Jesus could have written his teachings and passed them on to his apostles for reading to the iliterate but, more importantly, to ensure that his teaching did not become corrupt with the passage of time. As it is . we have hundreds of "Christian" sects whose differences are based on interpretations of the Bible. Surely god could have done a better job.
 
Hitler was not influenced by Christianity but by something else. Survival of the fittest, where did he get this from?

Saying that Communism was Stalins god is not based on fact. He did not believe in god, this is no secret.

Hitler was influenced by Nietsche and a corrupt version of Darwin. From Nietsche he got the idea of the Uebermensch; hence all the talk of the master race. That , alone, is enough to account for his outrages.

Darwin's idea of the survival of the fittest has been misunderstood by people who used it to justify their own ends. The idea became current that the strong could exploit the weak because the strong were the fitter. Hitler was not alone in thinking this.

Darwin said that if an environment changes, some organisms will be better able to adapt than others, i.e. they are fitter in this sense. You can see this process at work today where species unable to adapt are going extinct.

This does not mean that if I am stronger than the guy next door I should kill him. Such an interpretation suits those who favour creationism. They have no knowledge of evolutionary theory because they refuse to read anything on the subject. We are looking at the certainty of the ignorant who have no need to inform themselves beyond reading scripture.
 
"One of the questions that lurk deep within my mind is, if Jesus was the messiah who came to restore the Word of God, why did he not leave writings?"

Because it would be so perfect that there would no longer be any doubt about the existence of God, thus faith would be rendered useless.

"Why did not the apostles write down their messages?"

John did. There's also a few chapters that have been found claiming to be by Peter. Of course it's up for debate whether or not it really was by Peter.

"Instead we only have conflicting documents written more than 100 years after Christ was crucified."

None of them were written more than 50 years after Jesus died except possibly for John. They aren't in perfect harmony, that's for sure. But they're actually pretty darn close when you consider that decades had passed by the time they were written. I think the results would be the same for any four people writing about something they had witnessed over a period of a few years if they didn't write it down until decades later.
 
"One of the questions that lurk deep within my mind is, if Jesus was the messiah who came to restore the Word of God, why did he not leave writings?"

Because it would be so perfect that there would no longer be any doubt about the existence of God, thus faith would be rendered useless.
"Why did not the apostles write down their messages?"

John did. There's also a few chapters that have been found claiming to be by Peter. Of course it's up for debate whether or not it really was by Peter.

"Instead we only have conflicting documents written more than 100 years after Christ was crucified."

None of them were written more than 50 years after Jesus died except possibly for John. They aren't in perfect harmony, that's for sure. But they're actually pretty darn close when you consider that decades had passed by the time they were written. I think the results would be the same for any four people writing about something they had witnessed over a period of a few years if they didn't write it down until decades later

What logic ! Talk about putting the cart before the horse. " Faith would have been rendered useless" What was he hoping to prove ? If god wanted to make himself known to mankind, he could have made it a lot easier, which goes to show that he is not as bright as some make him out to be.
Try knowledge would have made faith redundant and there would be nothing to argue about
 
bill seper said:
None of them were written more than 50 years after Jesus died except possibly for John. They aren't in perfect harmony, that's for sure. But they're actually pretty darn close when you consider that decades had passed by the time they were written. I think the results would be the same for any four people writing about something they had witnessed over a period of a few years if they didn't write it down until decades later.
with thanks to Iasion

Iasion said:
Only two of the canonical Gospels, Matthew and John, are alleged by tradition to have been written by eyewitnesses - but I will also address Mark and Luke.

First of all, I should say that none of the four canonical Gospels names its own author, none of them claim to be eywitness accounts or even to have spoken to eyewitness of Jesus. All are written in the third person and none of the authors tell us anything about themselves. All of the traditional ascriptions of authorship come from 2nd century tradition.


G.Mark

The first gospel written is Mark. Mark is not by tradition an eyewitness account but 2nd century tradition casts him as a secretary of the Apostle Peter who haphazardly wrote down everything Peter said in no particular order.

The basis for this tradition stems from a single claim by Papias who said (c. 130 CE) that he got the information from John the Presbyter (not to be confused with John the Apostle). That's it. That's the entire case for Mark as a secretary of Peter.

Now let's examine the credibility of this claim.

First, Mark does not say that he knew Peter, talked to Peter, ever met Peter or got any information from any eyewitness.

Secondly, the author is extremely hostile to Peter. Mark is a decidedly Pauline, anti-Jewish and anti-Petrine diatribe. Mark is very hostile to the apostles in general and to Peter in particular. He takes every opportunity to depict the apostles as being dense and not getting Jesus' true message (reflecting the tension between Pauline communities and the Jerusalem cult in the last half of the first century). More to the point (and this is important) Mark does not give Peter any redemption after his betrayal. Mark does not grant Peter and appearance from Jesus. Mark's Peter denies Jesus, runs away and that's it. Now why would a Petrine memoir not include a Petrine witness of the resurrection? Wouldn't that be the most important part? How does it make any sense to exclude it?

Thirdly, the book is quote obviously a literary construction and is manifestly not a transcription of oral anecdotes. The literary structure of Mark, both in its chiastic forms and its use of the Hebrew Bible as a allusory template or "hypertext" preclude the possibility of transcribed oral tradition. GMark is a carefully constructed literary work.

It should also be mentioned that Mark is a Greek composition which shows no signs of translation from Aramaic, the language of Peter and the language he would have dictated his memoirs in.

Fourth, Mark makes a number of errors regarding Palestininan geography and Jewish laws and customs which show that his information could not have been collected from a Palestinian Jew. Mark's passion, in particular, is so riddled with factual. historical and legal inaccuracies that it cannot be historical and cannot have come from an eyewitness. (I will address the specific errors in the section devoted to that subject)

Fifth, the book could not have been written during the lifetime of Peter. Mark knows about the destruction of the Temple which means that Peter was dead (at least by Christian tradition) when the book was written.

To summarize, the canonical Gospel of Mark is an anonymous book written outside of Palestine in a Gentile language to a Gentile audience sometime during or after the Jewish-Roman War. The author is hostile to Jews and to the apostles. He does not know Jewish laws or customs. He does not know the geography of Palestine. He does not like Peter. He never makes any claim to have known Peter or to have ever been to Palestine.

In 130 CE some guy said he heard from another guy that the author was a secretary of Peter's.


G.Matthew

Let's move on to Matthew. The Gospel of Matthew, by tradition, is attributed to the apostle of that name. Like Mark, this authorship tradition stems from Papias (it was also claimed by Irenaeus but he was probably parroting Papias). Papias clamed that, "Matthew composed the sayings [of Jesus] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could." In Adv. Haer. 3.1.1.

If such a Logia ever existed, it is not Canonical Matthew. GMatt is not a sayings gospel for one thing and was not written in Hebrew for another. Furthermore, GMatt is largely dependent on Mark and (most probably)another written sayings tradition (in Greek, not Hebrew) called Q. Matt's dependence on Mark also puts its date somewhere around 80 CE (if not later) which is pushing the envelope for the plausibility of the author being a contemporary of Jesus. It's not impossible, of course, but this is an era when people generally didn't live much past forty or fifty years of age.

The bigger obstacle for apostolic authorship is that fact that Matthew copies so extensively from secondary sources. An eyewitness should not be expected to copy verbatim from a non-eyewitness.

There is also the fact that GMatt contains some of the more demonstrable fictions and signs of OT cannibalism but more on those aspects in their proper sections.

It also bears repeating that the author Matthew never claims to have been an apostle or a witness, never states his name and never claims to have known any other witnesses.

To sum up for Matthew:

Papias claims that an apostle named Matthew compiled a sayings Gospel in Hebrew.

The Canonical Gospel of Matthew is written in literary Greek and is not a sayings gospel. The author never claims to have been an apostle or an eyewitness. It relies heavily on secondary Greek sources as well as the Septuagint. Once again, an eyewitness would not rely on the accounts of non-witnesses to recount events that he had supposedly seen for himself. It was written at least 50 years after the alleged crucifixion. The author includes demonstrable fictions which can clearly be shown to have been derived from the Septuagint.

Papias' Logia, if it existed, has never been found.



G.Luke

The traditional author of Luke-Acts is supposedly a physician and travelling companion of Paul named Luke. Neither Luke nor Paul is a witness of Jesus even by tradition so I suppose I could stop right there but I think I'll take the time to point out that even the tradition which does exist is dubious. First of all, the author of Luke-Acts never claims to have known Paul. The earliest known claim for this tradition comes from Irenaeus in the late 2nd century who probably based his conclusion on the "we passages" from Acts as well as a stray mention of someone named Luke in Philemon (the name turns up in a couple of the non-authentic Pauline letters as well but the authentic corpus onle mentions the name once in passing).

There is no reason whatever to suppose that the Luke mentioned by Paul has aything to do with either GLuke or Acts.

The "we" passages in Acts are those passages during which the narrative voice changes from third person to first person plural. This is the source of the supposition that the author of Luke-Acts was a companion of Paul's but Vernon Robbins has shown that this was merely a Greek literary device for describing sea voyages.

Furthermore, Luke knew Josephus, which puts that gospel into the mid 90's CE at a bare minimum and probably later. This means that Paul had been dead 30 years before Luke-Acts was written. It is highly unlikely, then, that the book was written by a companion of Paul and there is absolutely no reason to connect the "Luke" who is so casually mentioned by Paul in one letter to the composition of Luke-Acts.

Furthermore, Luke is dependent on both Mark and Q which (contrary to some Christian folklore) means that Luke had no access to first hand accounts from other witneses.

There are also historical inaccuracies in Luke as well as contradictions with other Gospels which I will get to in time.

So, to sum up Luke, it is an anonymous gospel whose author makes no claim to first hand knowledge and no claim to knowledge even of Paul. It was written more than a half century after the crucifixion, is dependent on secondary sources and contains numerous historical errors and contradictions with the other gospels.

The fable of a physician named Luke who travelled with Paul comes from a claim made 150 years after the crucifixion and is corroborated by nothing in the text itself.


G.John

By tradition, the GJohn is written by the apostle of that name and is also identified as the mysterious "Beloved Disciple" mentioned within the text. This tradition, like Luke, stems from a late 2nd century claim by Irenaeus (who is known to have confused John the Apostle with another John, called 'the Presbyter" and may have been doing so again).

As with the other canonical Gospels, the author of GJohn does not identify himself or claim to be a witness (The seeming self-identification in 21:24 is a later redaction to the book, not part of the orginal manuscript and did not name the author "John" in any case. It is also not really a first person singular assertion, ("I wrote this") but a first person plural avowel that "we know" these were the words of a disciple (without naming the disciple).

Looking at the text of GJohn, we can see that any claim to the book as an eyewitness account does not hold water. First of all there is the very late date (c. 100 CE if not later) which puts it at the absolute edge of any plausible lifespan for a contemporary of Jesus. It also shows a heavy Hellenistic influence, both in its literary style and its theology. How does an illiterate Palestinian fisherman suddenly become proficient in stylized literary Greek and become aware of Alexandrian Jewish-Greek concepts like the Logos?

GJohn is also arguably the most anti-Jewish work. It goes beyond being just a polemic against the Pharisees or the priests and becomes a full on indictment of all Jewish people. Kind of weird since the author (like Jesus) was allegedly a Jew.

GJohn contains some of the longest, most otherwordly and most implausible speeches for Jesus. The length of the discourses in itself mitigates against their historicity simply by virtue of the implausibilty of those speeches surviving verbatim for 70 or more years in the memory of this fisherman (and nowhere else. These discourses are found nowhere else in early Christian literature). They do not have the short and sweet anecdotal quality of the Q pericopes which are easy to remember and transmit through oral tradition.

GJohn also shows layered authorship. It is not the contiguous work of a single author but the result of multiple redactions by multiple hands.

What is really the nail in the coffin, though, is that GJohn anachronistically retrojects the expulsion of Christians from Jewish synagogues (an event which occurred c. 85-95 CE) to within the life of Jesus. An eyewitness could not have made this mistake.

To sum up for John, it is an early 2nd century book which is heavily Hellenistic in its language and theology. It is markedly anti-Jewish, it contains speeches for Jesus which are not only incompatible with the character of Jesus as he is presented in the synoptics (not to mention that it simply strains all credulity that a 1st century Jewish audience would tolerate a guy claiming he was God) but simply cannot be credibly defended as authentic transcriptions of speeches remembered verbatim for 70 years by an illiterate Palestinian fisherman (and by nobody else) and then translated into Greek by that same fisherman. It contains contradictions with the synoptics which I will get to in time. It shows muliple hands of authorship and it contains an anachronism so glaring that it is a fatal blow to any consideration of eyewitness testimony.

Its traditional authorship stems from a single unreliable claim by Irenaeus (a guy who couldn't keep his "Johns" straight) around 180 CE.


Conclusion

None of the Gospels were written by any eye-witness to any historical Jesus.


with thanks to Iasion
 
Nice hobby you have there.
Yes, thank you, among many other hobbies ;)

Jesus said their are many rooms in my Father's house. Now, the Sun doesn't have any rooms, does it?

-Sun moving trough 12 house of The Great Year, The Zodiac signs ~ The Houses, were have been in this already. ? .

I am Catholic. Although the RCC may have appealed to pagans through the pagan's sun worship, there is absolutely no evidence in the Gospels or the Letters that Jesus worshipped the sun. First of all, Jesus was a Jew. Jews certainly did not worship the sun. After all, how could the sun possibly fit in the Ark of the Covenant and remain the in the Holy of Holies? If Jesus did worship the sun, he would have been thrown out of the Temple - and he never was until shortly before his death. Second, Jesus never refers to the sun as a God. Jesus said there were many rooms in his Father's house. Obviously, the sun doesn't have any rooms.

-So, what was it that Jews worshipped then, The God, right ? Now tell me what is The God ?
-Lets say there was a new prophet in that era, he tried to reform religion (agree?) the natural cause is conflict with those whom wanted to remain status quo, so he was killed. Then hes followers wrote down something, and one after other after other, than we suddenly have a manuscript to astronomy, how did that happen ? I´m halfway to you here now admitting that there could be in that time some prophet, but lets face it, its the same old story about sun dying and then resurrecting from death/darkness.
What If the Romans wanted to put more power to that Messiah of The Jews by giving him the exact qualites of other Sun Gods ?
What then, if thats the case, isnt Christianity a fraud.
If not then the other case is that he is coming back all the time, Horus, Krishna, Mithra and so on, and if that is the case I could worship Horus too. ?
Or my native Kalevala, its the same story too.

"Instead we only have conflicting documents written more than 100 years after Christ was crucified."

None of them were written more than 50 years after Jesus died except possibly for John. They aren't in perfect harmony, that's for sure. But they're actually pretty darn close when you consider that decades had passed by the time they were written. I think the results would be the same for any four people writing about something they had witnessed over a period of a few years if they didn't write it down until decades later.

-That applies my Kalevala too, damn, where is my Kalevala ! :cool:
 
Are you serious ? So he listened and he read but never got around to writing. Wouldn't it have been better had he done so, then all the arguments about what he meant could have been avoided. Information passed on verbally gets corrupted or don;t you know that.

Nonsense. If you can read you can write.
Further the Jews and Arabs were masters of verbal tradition, unparaleled dare I say by any other cultures. Yet it's irrelevent. The accounts of Jesus are from not his perspective not his own. And they're fairly synonomous.



Your ad hom is a nice try but it falls down when you talk of my alienating reason. If reason and religion were bedfellows, we would not be having this exchange. So, again, what reason can you give for Jesus not having written his message and saved everyone a lot of trouble ?



"you refuse correction" = you refuse to accept my mumbo jumbo

That was weak.
Am I perplexed by this? Not at all. Reading comprehension has died in scientific circles in favor of interpretation.
 
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The gospel of John is almost undoubtedly written by the Apostle John, something that probably 75% of all scholars agree upon. The two main clues (and incredibly obvious to anyone having actually read it) are: 1) The gospel never once refers to the name "John" (nobody refers to themselves in the first person unless they're a Hollywood socialite); 2) His statements about "the disciple Jesus loved" which appear three times in John tell us all we need to know about the author. It's shown over and over in all the gospels that Peter, James, and John were the three most intimate with Christ. In John 21 it tells us that some of the disciples were out fishing and they were, "Simon Peter, Thomas (called Didymus), Nathanael from Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and two other disciples were together." There were only two sons of Zebedee--John and James. So John was definitely there. Then it says in verse 7, "Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, "It is the Lord!" As soon as Simon Peter heard him say, "It is the Lord," he wrapped his outer garment around him (for he had taken it off) and jumped into the water."

This episode tells us that Peter is definitely not the "the disciple Jesus loved". Which leaves us with only two other close associates--James and John. According to Acts 12:2 James was the first of the disciples (after Judas) to die. He died quite young. In John 21:20 Peter, after having been told that he would die a death similar to Christ, points to "the disciple Jesus loved" and asks, "Lord, what about him?" We get this reply: 22Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?" 24This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down.

We know from many of the church fathers that John lived to be quite old. It's true that Jesus never actually meant that the person identified as "the disciple Jesus loved" would never die (necessarily), but as nearly all good scholars have pointed out, it would seem to be a rather silly thing to say if the statement were meant to be about James since he died shortly thereafter. It's also painfully obvious throughout all the gospels that Jesus maintained a much closer friendship with John than any other apostle.

Further, not only did Irenaeus identify the author as John, so did Tertullian and Theophilos. In fact not one person from the early days of the church (or before the 18th century for that mater) ever have a problem with the authorship being attributed to John the Apostle, not even the bible's critics.
 
"What logic ! Talk about putting the cart before the horse. " Faith would have been rendered useless" What was he hoping to prove ? If god wanted to make himself known to mankind, he could have made it a lot easier, which goes to show that he is not as bright as some make him out to be."

The point being that God does NOT want to make himself known to mankind. At least not directly. That would make the entire material existance fruitless. The whole point is to separate the sheep from the goats. If people knew there was a God, most would be on their best behavior. They would put on their best face. But it wouldn't be their true face. The last thing I would want to populate my city if I were God, would be people who only acted good, but only did so because they were afraid of punishment, of God watching them. I would want people who acted rightly because they truly chose to. That's the whole purpose of faith rather than knowledge. You don't find out what the kids are made of until the teacher leaves the room.
 
"Reading comprehension has died in scientific circles in favor of interpretation."

There's a lot of truth in that statement unfortunately. And not just in scientific circles, but scholarly circles in general, most of whom are overly obsessed with fruedian nonsense in place of proper thinking skills.
 
You don't find out what the kids are made of until the teacher leaves the room.

Unless of course the teacher is omniscient in which case the whole exercise is a complete and utter waste of time.

Furthermore, knowing there's a god there and being on your best behaviour is no different from believing there's a god there and being on your best behaviour. In either instance you're only acting on your best behaviour because there is, or you think there is, a god watching.

Ultimately the non-believer is the only person of any merit. They don't believe a god is watching and yet still act on their best behaviour - that should surely impress this non-omniscient god of yours more? "Look at that guy... he doesn't believe I exist and yet he behaves. Look at that other guy who behaves merely because he thinks I exist".
 
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"Unless of course the teacher is omniscient in which case the whole exercise is a complete and utter waste of time."

I don't have any argument with that statement. Only about 30% of all Christians are fundamentalists who believe in things like biblical inerrancy or dare I say--omniscience. I certainly do not. I believe the world runs much more like a computer program, with call and response sub-programs built in to the system. Obviously no one can see everything at once. But he can manage everything at once with something like a program. It's like being omniscient without actually being omniscient. Does God actually know the number of hairs on my head and everyone elses? No. But he can look it up. I can't. I'm not saying the world is an actual computer program of course, just that it must work much like one in many ways. Yet with plenty of chaos and free will in the mix as well.
 
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"Ultimately the non-believer is the only person of any merit. They don't believe a god is watching and yet still act on their best behaviour - that should surely impress this non-omniscient god of yours more?"

Where did you get the impression that belief or non-belief has to play into it? I think it does for many people, but it doesn't have to. I think all men are born with a sense of right and wrong and a God-given consciense. Call it natural law or the Tao or what have you. No one 'really' believes it's right to steal or admires cowardice (as Lewis said). You'll act according to it, or you'll begin to cast it away from you at some point until you develope something like an anti-conscience. In this case it's not a matter of belief. Paul in Romans:

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Believing or not believing isn't an excuse.
 
Nonsense. If you can read you can write.
Further the Jews and Arabs were masters of verbal tradition, unparaleled dare I say by any other cultures. Yet it's irrelevent. The accounts of Jesus are from not his perspective not his own. And they're fairly synonomous.

Well that explains the confusion among Christians. A multi-faceted Jesus seen from differing perspectives. An oral tradition is inevitably weaker than a written tradition. Ask any psychologist about memory and Chinese whispers !To argue otherwise beggars belief. You might like to note that things can be synomous or not, "Fairly synonomous" means nothing.


That was weak.Am I perplexed by this? Not at all. Reading comprehension has died in scientific circles in favor of interpretation.


Your arrogance is astounding . " Reading comprehension............."

Would you care to back up that ridiculous statement with some evidence. Of course you are not perplexed. People who believe the Bible are in no danger of becoming perplexed; that only happens when one thinks critically about what one is reading.
 
"Unless of course the teacher is omniscient in which case the whole exercise is a complete and utter waste of time."

I don't have any argument with that statement. Only about 30% of all Christians are fundamentalists who believe in things like biblical inerrancy or dare I say--omniscience. I certainly do not. I believe the world runs much more like a computer program, with call and response sub-programs built in to the system. Obviously no one can see everything at once. But he can manage everything at once with something like a program. It's like being omniscient without actually being omniscient. Does God actually know the number of hairs on my head and everyone elses? No. But he can look it up. I can't. I'm not saying the world is an actual computer program of course, just that it must work much like one in many ways. Yet with plenty of chaos and free will in the mix as well.


Where does god look up the number of hairs on my head ? In a celestial library ? I've heard some silly things in my time but.....
 
Kalevala of the day ! (the very first words) The Holy Book of mine !

-Mieleni minun tekevi, aivoni ajattellevi
lähteäni laulamahan, sanaani sanelemahan.

-Mind of mine wants, brain thinking
to go sing, to speak my word

-Wäinämöinen The Son of God starts to tell hes tale.
vainamoinen.jpg

(And first there was a nothing but potential, then a thought and then word)
-I can see in these lines our shamanistic past and thus, similaritys to eastern philosophys/religions. First word of The Book is mieli/mind :cool:
 
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"Ultimately the non-believer is the only person of any merit. They don't believe a god is watching and yet still act on their best behaviour - that should surely impress this non-omniscient god of yours more?"

Where did you get the impression that belief or non-belief has to play into it? I think it does for many people, but it doesn't have to. I think all men are born with a sense of right and wrong and a God-given consciense. Call it natural law or the Tao or what have you. No one 'really' believes it's right to steal or admires cowardice (as Lewis said). You'll act according to it, or you'll begin to cast it away from you at some point until you develope something like an anti-conscience. In this case it's not a matter of belief. Paul in Romans:

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Believing or not believing isn't an excuse.

Why do you have to fall back on Paul to support your statement. Can you not respond off your own bat ? What law was Paul talking about ?
 
"Reading comprehension has died in scientific circles in favor of interpretation."

There's a lot of truth in that statement unfortunately. And not just in scientific circles, but scholarly circles in general, most of whom are overly obsessed with fruedian nonsense in place of proper thinking skills.

What the hell are you talking about. Freud has been discredited in most scientific circles. I don't know where you get such nonsense from; A Christian propoganda site ? There is no truth whatsoever in that statement.
 
"What logic ! Talk about putting the cart before the horse. " Faith would have been rendered useless" What was he hoping to prove ? If god wanted to make himself known to mankind, he could have made it a lot easier, which goes to show that he is not as bright as some make him out to be."

The point being that God does NOT want to make himself known to mankind. At least not directly. That would make the entire material existance fruitless. The whole point is to separate the sheep from the goats. If people knew there was a God, most would be on their best behavior. They would put on their best face. But it wouldn't be their true face. The last thing I would want to populate my city if I were God, would be people who only acted good, but only did so because they were afraid of punishment, of God watching them. I would want people who acted rightly because they truly chose to. That's the whole purpose of faith rather than knowledge. You don't find out what the kids are made of until the teacher leaves the room.


So god does not want to make himself known to mankind. So why did he send Jesus." No man cometh unto the Father ......"

Seperating sheep from goats. Does that really make sense to you ? As god created everything it sems he created both so he could then seperate one from the other. Most humans would not be so dim. He could have saved us all a lot of trouble had he only created sheep.
 
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