Muslims lie

[(Q)]

Why should I lie?

Why do you lie?

 

[S.A.M.]

Not by your choice, either.

Or, I could be already married?

 

[Ghost_007]

Taqiyya translated: Dissimulation: Dissimulation is a form of deception in which one conceals the truth. It differs from simulation, in which one exhibits false information. Dissimulation commonly takes the form of concealing one's ability in order to gain the element of surprise over an opponent.

Taqiyya? rotfl.

Do you know the stance of Sunnis regarding Taqiyya?

Sunni view - Most Sunnis generally assert that the Shi'a doctrine of taqiyya isn't in accordance with its acceptable use (to save one's life). They assert that Shi'as have been using taqiyya as a tool of deception, not to save their own lives, but to cause strife for the Sunni Calipha (which was resented by Shi'as) and to legitimize their own minority faith in the eyes of a majority by whom it is constantly surrounded.[7] They point to the prominent Shi'a work Al Kafi (v9 p116) as evidence to what they call the Shia misuses of taqiyya. It reads, "Mix with them [non-Shi'a] externally but oppose them internally." They say that although taqiyya to save one's life can be considered legitimate at times, the way Shi'as have applied taqiyya by misrepresenting historical occurrences and sayings is forbidden.[8] Allegations such as these are found in many Sunni writings, classical and contemporary. For example, in Minhaj as-Sunnah, Shaykh Ibn Tayymiah of the Hanbali school of Sunni jurispudence said to narrate knowledge from everyone but the Shi'a "because they invent ahaadeeth and adopt them as part of their religion."

http://www.raza.co.za/Deviant%20Sects%20&%20Scholars/Deviant_Shia%20Beliefs.htm


A thread about lying and you talk with complete ignorance, you talk with no understanding of the issue while trying to present yourself as an expert on the issue - hilarious.


A day to day example:

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/9345/lying

Please read this link:

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/2424/lying

One of these situations is when a person mediates between two disputing parties in order to reconcile between them, if reconciliation cannot be achieved in any other way. Um Kalthoom (may Allaah be pleased with her) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “He is not a liar who reconciles between people and conveys something good or says something good.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 2495).

Another example is a man’s speaking to his wife, or a woman speaking to her husband, with regard to matters that will strengthen the ties of love between them, even if that is accompanied by exaggeration. Asma’ bint Yazeed said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Lying is not permitted except in three cases: a man’s speaking to his wife to make her happy; lying at times of war; and lying in order to reconcile between people.’” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 1862; he said: it is a hasan hadeeth. See also Saheeh Muslim, 4717).

One of the most important forms of both being truthful and lying is in the area of promises and covenants. Being truthful in promises and covenants is one of the characteristics by which the believers are known. Both promises and covenants involve saying something about an issue to confirm that you will do it, especially with regard to one's duties towards Allaah. Allaah says, praising some of His slaves (interpretation of the meanings):

“Those who are faithfully true to their amaanaat (all the duties which Allaah has ordained, honesty, moral responsibility and trusts, etc.) and to their covenants.” [al-Mu’minoon 23:8]

“… and who fulfil their covenant when they make it…” [al-Baqarah 2:177]

Back to what you were saying:

Many Muslims have been taught it's perfectly acceptable to lie in order to settle conciliation, not with other Muslims, of course, but to non-believers; infidels.

How can you possibly know this?

I for one haven't been taught that, I'm Muslim.

Seriously, how can you make such a bold statement like that? Based on what?

 

[(Q)]

Taqiyya? rotfl.

Do you know the stance of Sunnis regarding Taqiyya?

"They assert that Shi'as have been using taqiyya as a tool of deception, not to save their own lives, but to cause strife for the Sunni Calipha (which was resented by Shi'as) and to legitimize their own minority faith in the eyes of a majority by whom it is constantly surrounded."

A thread about lying and you talk with complete ignorance, you talk with no understanding of the issue while trying to present yourself as an expert on the issue - hilarious.

Who said I was an expert? You did, not me.

Please read this link:

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/2424/lying

"The most obnoxious form of lying is falsely attributing things to Allaah and His Messenger, because this involves fabrication about the religion and is an act of outrage against Allaah."

Perfect example. Allah hasn't even been demonstrated to exist, hence that is a lie on my part to suggest such a thing. Utterly ridiculous. Muslims have the upper hand from the get go. One simply cannot say anything about it. Period.

“… who does more wrong than one who invents a lie against Allaah, to lead mankind astray without knowledge. Certainly Allaah guides not the people whi are zaalimoon (polytheists and wrong-doers, etc.)” [al-An’am 6:144]"

And it is Muslims who will decide what is a lie against Allah and what is not, right? Hence, they can decide whatever they want, which is exactly what Muslims here have been doing.

"‘These are the ones who lied against their Lord!’ No doubt! The curse of Allaah is on the zaalimoon (polytheists, wrong-doers, oppressors, etc.).” [Hood 11:18]"

Proof enough? Do you want more?

"Equally bad is lying about the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as he is reported to have said in the mutawaatir hadeeth: “Whoever lies about me deliberately, let him take his place in Hell.” (Agreed upon).

Muhammad claimed to have spoken with an angel. Isn't that a lie? Do angels exist?

The basic rule with regard to lying is that it is not permitted, but there are certain circumstances in which Islam permits lying to serve a greater purpose or to prevent harm.

One of these situations is when a person mediates between two disputing parties in order to reconcile between them, if reconciliation cannot be achieved in any other way.

How's that for size and clarity? How much more proof do you need? You provided this link, too.

 

[Ghost_007]

"They assert that Shi'as have been using taqiyya as a tool of deception, not to save their own lives, but to cause strife for the Sunni Calipha (which was resented by Shi'as) and to legitimize their own minority faith in the eyes of a majority by whom it is constantly surrounded."

Do you know the position of Sunnis regarding Takiyya?

85% of the Muslim World is Sunni, 15% Shia - that is not to say that 100% of the Shias of the World practise Takiyya.

Who said I was an expert? You did, not me.

So you're not an expert? Fine.

Perfect example. Allah hasn't even been demonstrated to exist, hence that is a lie on my part to suggest such a thing. Utterly ridiculous. Muslims have the upper hand from the get go. One simply cannot say anything about it. Period.

Red herring. Trust you to start veering off-topic.

And it is Muslims who will decide what is a lie against Allah and what is not, right? Hence, they can decide whatever they want, which is exactly what Muslims here have been doing.

No one is talking about that.

Proof enough? Do you want more?

Proof of what?

From my link:

One of these situations is when a person mediates between two disputing parties in order to reconcile between them, if reconciliation cannot be achieved in any other way. Um Kalthoom (may Allaah be pleased with her) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “He is not a liar who reconciles between people and conveys something good or says something good.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 2495).

Another example is a man’s speaking to his wife, or a woman speaking to her husband, with regard to matters that will strengthen the ties of love between them, even if that is accompanied by exaggeration. Asma’ bint Yazeed said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Lying is not permitted except in three cases: a man’s speaking to his wife to make her happy; lying at times of war; and lying in order to reconcile between people.’” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 1862; he said: it is a hasan hadeeth. See also Saheeh Muslim, 4717).

One of the most important forms of both being truthful and lying is in the area of promises and covenants. Being truthful in promises and covenants is one of the characteristics by which the believers are known. Both promises and covenants involve saying something about an issue to confirm that you will do it, especially with regard to one's duties towards Allaah.

I feel lying is the wrong way to describe such acts as lying is associated with manipulating others for personal gain, telling people lies in order to hurt their feelings, basically bringing out a negative outcome. The ‘lies’ allowed in Islam are far from that, the intentions for those ‘lies’ are noble. To conceal the truth, to tell an untruth can sometimes bring about good, it can help others. To tell the truth can at times be very painful and in certain situations it could almost be cruel to tell the truth. Some examples:

Wife: Do I look fat in this?
Husband: No Darling, you look lovely.

The husband knew telling the truth would be very painful and therefore decided to tell a lie, result – the wife is very happy.

Child: Mummy, where has dad gone, when will he be back?
Mum: Daddy is very busy, he has to work far away but will be back soon.

The mother knows her son could not bear the thought of his dad having left the family so she avoids saying this, her intention is to tell him when he is more emotionally stable and therefore more able to deal with the situation.

Army guy: Your son fought valiantly and died an honourable death

When in reality he abandoned his comrades but was killed running away from the battlefield.

If you think telling a lie in such situations is immoral and that those people should be ashamed of themselves, I would say you need a reality check. I find it hilarious that you keeping pushing this 'Muslims have been taught to lie' angle and try to present it as us all being a load of people that lie in order to manipulate, in order to take advantage of others etc. when you have no grounds whatsoever, you have nothing to prove this – it is not possible.

If you think Muslims are liars – then that is your opinion. That opinion of yours however would make you a bigot and a Muslim hater.

 

[Kadark]

*************
M*W: Thoughts don't need to be original when a point needs to be made. You're fairly new here, so you don't know that I defended Muslim people up to now. I have many Muslim friends, but none of them have ever acted like the Muslims on this forum! I brought these issues to some Muslim friends, and they said the Muslims on this forum (S.A.M., Kadark, etc.), are radicals and do not represent Islam at all. They also advised me to avoid them, because they are nothing more than cyber-terrorists and are in the business of destroying the Religion sub-forum. I listen to people I trust no matter what their religion, but the Muslims mentioned on this forum cannot be trusted. That was my point.

Could you please ask your "Muslim friends" to visit Sciforums the next time a stretch of free time befalls them? I'd love to discuss an issue or two with them. What makes me a radical? I'd love to hear your explanation. A personal question, I beg of you: why the sudden change of heart, Medicine*Woman? I've known you, largely, to be a mild-mannered individual. However, lately you've become vehemently anti-Muslim (saying things like "Muslims lie", which implies that all one and a half billion Muslims worldwide are sinister liars, kind of gives it away). Or, has the corrosive influence of (Q) finally gotten to you?

Ah! I see (Q) is still arguing about taqiyya. Respond to my post in your old thread when you get the chance, sweetheart.


Kadark

 

[Sock puppet path]

Taqiyya? rotfl.

Do you know the stance of Sunnis regarding Taqiyya?



http://www.raza.co.za/Deviant%20Sects%20&%20Scholars/Deviant_Shia%20Beliefs.htm

So is this like the opinion of the muslim pope?....Oh wait muslims don't have any central authority so there is no official policy. A million clerics can say a million different things and none has authority over the other.

In essence it is useless and dishonest to quote any of them and try and represent them as any sort of official policy makers for anyone but thier constituency.

Until kadark gets his caliphate and exterminates the polytheists, jews and atheists

 

[(Q)]

The ‘lies’ allowed in Islam...

Thank you. That's all you needed to say.

If you think telling a lie in such situations is immoral and that those people should be ashamed of themselves, I would say you need a reality check.

It is immoral for a religion to condone lying. Simple, really.

Your examples are irrelevant to that fact.

 

[S.A.M.]

A million clerics can say a million different things and none has authority over the other.

Correct, hence ascribing any universal opinion to Muslims [except that they believe in God and consider Mohammed as a Prophet] is a fallacious argument.

 

[Sock puppet path]

Correct, hence ascribing any universal opinion to Muslims [except that they believe in God and consider Mohammed as a Prophet] is a fallacious argument.

Hence they can only be judged by thier actions in countries not at war (and all this judge by thier scripture not by thier actions, ala ghost, DH and arslan is just a crock)

 

[S.A.M.]

Hence they can only be judged by thier actions in countries not at war (and all this judge by thier scripture not by thier actions, ala ghost, DH and arslan is just a crock)

Correct. Especially when they have puppet dictators installed by western powers.

 

[CheskiChips]

Thats okay, I'm not looking to get married.

Atleast we know that my kids will have one less SAM

 

[S.A.M.]

Atleast we know that my kids will have one less SAM

I wouldn't count on that. I am the meek one in my family.

 

[Sock puppet path]

Correct. Especially when they have puppet dictators installed by western powers.

And can't stand up and take responsibility for themselves

 

[S.A.M.]

And can't stand up and take responsibility for themselves

Yeah, like Americans with three, four, five??? secret prisons with legalised torture.

 

[Ghost_007]

Thank you. That's all you needed to say.

So that's all you wanted? You are now finished with this thread?

This wasn't about discussing stuff but about scoring cheap points?

It is immoral for a religion to condone lying. Simple, really.

Your examples are irrelevant to that fact.

There are many types of lies (e.g. white lies), its too simplistic to regard all lies as being the same - something I pointed out in my previous post. I don't think you understand this - it seems to be beyond your understanding.

 

[S.A.M.]

So that's all you wanted? You are now finished with this thread?

This wasn't about discussing stuff but about scoring cheap points?




There are many types of lies (e.g. white lies), its too simplistic to regard all lies as being the same - something I pointed out in my previous post. I don't think you understand this - it seems to be beyond your understanding.

He cannot understand it. As an athiest he lacks a moral compass.

 

[Simon Anders]

*************
M*W: Thoughts don't need to be original when a point needs to be made. You're fairly new here, so you don't know that I defended Muslim people up to now. I have many Muslim friends, but none of them have ever acted like the Muslims on this forum! I brought these issues to some Muslim friends, and they said the Muslims on this forum (S.A.M., Kadark, etc.), are radicals and do not represent Islam at all. They also advised me to avoid them, because they are nothing more than cyber-terrorists and are in the business of destroying the Religion sub-forum. I listen to people I trust no matter what their religion, but the Muslims mentioned on this forum cannot be trusted. That was my point.

You must show them this quote of yours and ask them what they think.

M*W: That goes for all religions, especially the Abrahamic ones. They are virtually evil. Anyone who professes devotion to the Abrahamic religions are evil. That goes for Christians, Muslims and Jews.

 

[CheskiChips]

I wouldn't count on that. I am the meek one in my family.

You believe in yeshki, which says 'meek will inherit the earth' so according to you...you're doomed anyways.

 

[Sock puppet path]

Yeah, like Americans with three, four, five??? secret prisons with legalised torture.

exactly scapegoating is an old custom http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj3zNfYQRFQ