Is Islam an Abrahamic religion?
What about Mormons? Are Mormons?
What about Baha'i?
What about Scientologists (Ron Hubbard claimed to be a reincarnation of Jesus and Mosses and etc...) so - is it also an Abrahamic religion?
Muslims lie
- Thread starter Medicine*Woman
- Start date
- Status
What about Mormons? Are Mormons?
What about Baha'i?
What about Scientologists (Ron Hubbard claimed to be a reincarnation of Jesus and Mosses and etc...) so - is it also an Abrahamic religion?
Which of course you're unable to respond without lying.
Kudos? He hasn't shown his head around here for round 2. Where's the response to my questions posed to him? Sweet FA.
We've already established that paradoxes are irrelevant in that taquiyaa is false simply due to the fact there are no logical alternatives to the argument. So, away with your nonsense about trying to validate lying based on paradoxes, it is simply not a credible or logical argument.
Sorry Sam, trying to validate your argument through the use of paradoxes isn't going to fly. One can sit and make up countless paradoxes where only one logical solution is the answer. The problem is that one can also make up paradoxes that would nullify taquiyaa in exactly the same way you wish to validate it, hence it is an entirely useless argument.
So, regardless of the fact that your argument is moot, you continue pushing it as valid to create yet another fallacious argument.
You will never learn, Sam. And, that is very sad, indeed.
You mean like, I'm teetering on the edge of a precipice in which an infant somehow holds my life in his hands. It is found that the infant will grow up and discover a cure for cancer. Yet, to save myself, I must kill the infant.
Get a brain, Sam.
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
I think theists are in the same boat actually, but I am not sure. Let me pursue this with you. You base your morality, as a theist, on God's rules or criteria. But still as a theist you need to determine who God is - which of the various gods - and I assume part of the criteria is which God seems good. Aren't you as theists reaching out towards what seems both good and right and then deciding to listen to what this deity says. (you also need to determine how to interpret God's rules or criteria or determine which earthly interpreter you are going to trust to do this for you) This all seemed to me to rest on claims to subjective skill on the theists' parts ALSO.
Society. Society decides what is right and wrong, not religion. That is why a Muslim in America might not share the same morals as a Muslim in Iran (just as an example). That's why our moral code is not the moral code of any particular religion. It is what society decides.
Islam is an Abrahamic religion.
Mormons aren't, they don't get circumcised.
Baha'i technically is, it follows Jesus and many of the rituals.
Scientology doesn't even claim to be a religion, even if they did their doctrine isn't abrahamic.
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
Wait. christians don't have the whole circumcision thing unless their countries had it as standard med practice. But they are Abrahamic. Or ?
Well; it's a weird question. However they're not in the Abrahamic Covenant if they are uncircumcised
"To give Abraham and his male descendants circumcision as the permanent sign of this everlasting covenant (Bereishet: 17:9-14)"
It shouldn't even go that deep.
I would submit that Sam, or any other theist who "believes" they would actually follow their gods criteria when presented with a paradoxical life and death situation in which they had to make split second decisions, wouldn't think for a second those criteria, as the adrenalin is coursing through them and panic sets in, hence would make the decision based on exactly the same criteria as anyone placed in the same predicaments. The criteria would remain the same, but the decisions could be very different, and enlightening.
Are there statistics showing just how many theists/atheists would tuck tail to save their own lives, or would they save the lives of others and give up their own?
You mean like, I'm teetering on the edge of a precipice in which an infant somehow holds my life in his hands. It is found that the infant will grow up and discover a cure for cancer. Yet, to save myself, I must kill the infant.
Get a brain, Sam.
Oh is that how you decide the basis of good or harm? Through ridiculous meaningless examples? I suppose when you have no basis for morality, you have to take what you can get.
But I'm not asking about society, I'm asking about YOU. What is your basis for deciding whether an action you take will result in good or harm? How do you define "good" and "harm"?
No problem, the title "Muslims lie" might come across biased towards muslims to some, offensive to others, tactless or normal to the rest.
When christianity brought a large negative impact on your life it changed your perception on religion and made you oppose it because it obviously hurt you. There is corruption and evil in alot of religions but there is good too if you try to stand back to a neutral point and observe it. for every negative you will most likely find a positive counterpart.
You know all of the flaws you point out in certain individuals, apply those same flaws into a person who is not religious do you think it would provoke the same response in people?.
See this is what the actual argument is in its most basic terms.
God cannot be proved to exist with evidence that most require to be solid/factual based. Theists have faith in that regardless and know thats what faith is, Atheists say wheres the proof theists reply usualy with a certain type of answer, Atheist is not happy with the answer, they dance around the maple tree for awhile and sling around ancient debate terms wich have been used since before jesus was even born. There is no evidence you can't really advance past that stage in the argument from either side. The ethics of religion and rules regrding it are good things to debate about, that will go further, I don't really see how I could prove gods existence to everyone, different people require different things.
What would it take for everyone to believe in god?, god would need to come down and talk to some face to face, some would need to actualy hear his voice?, maybe send people down to earth and tell everybody and prove they speak the truth.
I think gods existence if true is a good thing.
peace.
That is important and a good point for Theists to note. You must always question the rules to see if they are truley honourable and just, If you follow rules blindly without questioning if they are with good intentions, it can be a dangerous tool of control and pursuit of greed and power.
peace.
Exactly, the very same ridiculous, meaningless examples YOU put forth. Hence, you agree with my position that your argument is invalid.
Whatever basis you choose to imagine of me certainly recognizes the immorality of lying when ones religious beliefs are threatened. Zak is the only Muslim here who hasn't lied for that purpose, and he despises those Muslims who do. He simply has not lied to save face with Islam. You have.
And since this forum is for the discussion of religion, and your religion is constantly at threat here, is there really any question in anyone's mind that you don't lie to protect Islam, that you don't use dissimulation to get your way?
(Q) said:
Still waiting on what your atheistic basis is for defining good or harm.
How do you do it? You could take any example. For example, if your life were threatened in a society where atheists would be hung for their disbelief. What would your morality consist of, in such a society?
Would it be immoral to lie to conceal your athiesm? Or not? What would you recognise as moral? Taqiyya?
Last edited:
There are few here who are as intellectually dishonest as you Sam. After providing me with ridiculous, meaningless examples, I reciprocate to demonstrate a point, and you call me on it as such, only to follow up with yet more ridiculous, meaningless examples.
And although your medieval cult perpetrate violent acts to those who don't share in those medieval beliefs, such nonsense is well beyond reason and rationale, let alone morality.
How does one explain to those who are obligated to lie, the morals of lying? And when all reason and rationale are dismissed in favor of beliefs, how can one do anything but lie? Because, that is exactly what lying results in, the corruption of reason and rationale.
It is quite the devious and sinister contrivance of Islam, to be obliged to lie to protect itself. It simply is impossible for Islam to undergo any scrutiny whatsoever.
Hmm, so there is no difference between Islam and Muslims then? Because where does it say that Islam has to "protect itself"?
I suggest you take another closer look at your own honesty.
sam is passin gas again
S: not sure how that works, most sources I have read say that they are the 2nd source used in Islam because they do 2 things. relate the life of Mohammad
& tell Muslims how to live, as in using his life as a role model
are there prominent imams or schools that agree with you? or is it the next wave of the young Muslims?
also, is your counter right, 44,252 posts? do you like type 1,000 words per minute? or are you like obsessive?
- Status