Mormon Teachings

[Brutus1964]

One man's cult is another man's religion. It is a ridiculous discussion. It is like two school boys fighting at the playground.

"you're bad!"

"No, you are!"

"No, you are!"

"Am not!"

"Is so!"

There is not difference.

 

[Jenyar]

C.S. Lewis believed this also. Was he a cultist?

CS Lewis believed that we must conform spiritually to Christ's nature as human beings, which is what the Bible teaches. He did not believe that one could become like our heavenly Father in form and nature. Why do you think the Hebrews did not interpret "be Holy as I am holy" in terms of exaltation as spiritual beings? They exercized that command by adhering to the ten commandments. Yet nobody could do that perfectly, because the law it was just a shadow of Christ, a school master preparing us for the day God would come to be with us in person - not us coming to God in person!

So, what the law could not do perfectly, Christ came to perfect. Only He was - and is - qualified to bear the name above all names: God's name, because He bore God's nature. Mormons would have us return to the old dispensation, when laws and rituals still represented our salvation and our education. Precisely that which couldn't perfect us in the first place, they now say will make us gods.

But the "gods" spoken of in Psalm 82 were told they would "die like mere men" and "fall like every other ruler." Aren't these the gods you are talking about? Even Christ, when He was called God on earth, died like a mere man. We are even told why by Paul: "the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death." But Christ died that death for us:

Romans 8:1-3
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.​

Yes, we must become like Christ, and will eventually see Him "face to face". But gods in the sense the Bible uses the term? Not according to the Bible.

 

[Marlin]

To quote C.S. Lewis:

The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were "gods" and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him--for we can prevent Him, if we choose --He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said. (Lewis, Mere Christianity, pp. 174-75)​

Read the full chapter on the LDS view of deification in Stephen E. Robinson's book, Are Mormons Christians?

The Doctrinal Exclusion

 

[Marlin]

To summarize some of Dr. Robinson's statements in Are Mormons Christians? ("The Doctrinal Exclusion" chapter), here is what he has to say:

Whether the doctrine of deification is correct or incorrect, it was a part of mainstream Christian orthodoxy for centuries, though some modern Christians with a limited historical view may not be aware of it. If this doctrine became "the standard in Greek theology," and if "deification is the goal of every Christian," then the Latter-day Saints can't be banished from the Christian family for having the same theology and the same goal. If Saint Irenaeus, Saint Justin Martyr, Saint Clement of Alexandria, Saint Athanasius, Saint Cyril of Alexandria, Saint Maximus the Confessor, and Saint Symeon the New Theologian all believed that human beings can become gods, and if these good former-day saints are still to be counted as Christians, then the Latter-day Saints cannot be excluded from Christian circles for believing the same thing. In fact this doctrine is not pagan, nor is it foreign to the larger Christian tradition.12 Since it is found among the theologian/saints from Justin Martyr in the second century to Simeon the New Theologian in the eleventh century, Joseph Smith obviously did not make it up.​

 

[Jenyar]

...a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale)

Do you understand the difference between a mirror and the source of light? Between the image and the original?

I notice your website quotes Irenaeus, Clement, Justin Martyr and Athanasius. Are they pre- or post-total apostasy?

PS. "if these good former-day saints are still to be counted as Christians, then the Latter-day Saints cannot be excluded from Christian circles for believing the same thing."
If you can call them Mormons because their beliefs approach Mormonism in some way, would you grant the same priviledge to modern day Chistians? In other words, if you are Christians (in the traditional sense), are we Mormons?

 

[Yorda]

One man's cult is another man's religion. It is a ridiculous discussion. It is like two school boys fighting at the playground.

"you're bad!"

"No, you are!"

"No, you are!"

"Am not!"

"Is so!"

There is not difference.

What does it matter and why is it ridiculous?

 

[Marlin]

Do you understand the difference between a mirror and the source of light? Between the image and the original?

Yes, I do. Do you understand the difference between these two statements:

1. Mormons believe they will one day be equal with God.
OR
2. Mormons believe they will forever be subordinate to God.

Hint: It's #2.

I notice your website quotes Irenaeus, Clement, Justin Martyr and Athanasius. Are they pre- or post-total apostasy?

I don't know; I'm not an authority on the Apostasy. But it doesn't matter--what matters is, do orthodox Christians believe that Irenaeus, Clement, Justin Martyr and Athanasius were true Christians? If so, it is a theological double standard to exclude the Mormons from Christianity for their belief in deification while allowing that these early saints were Christians, for having the same beliefs.

PS. "if these good former-day saints are still to be counted as Christians, then the Latter-day Saints cannot be excluded from Christian circles for believing the same thing."
If you can call them Mormons because their beliefs approach Mormonism in some way, would you grant the same priviledge to modern day Chistians? In other words, if you are Christians (in the traditional sense), are we Mormons?

Yes, we grant the same privilege to other Christians (that is, we don't insist that they are Mormons when they don't wish to be identified as such).

 

[Lawdog]

Why is there a need for anything further than the Holy Scriptures and the Tradition of the original Church, the Catholic Church. After all, if you say that Mormonism and the correct form of religion began with John Smith and his "discoveries" that leaves almost 1800+ years of error, and this would imply that God is indeed a "hard master" for not having left certain men with the power to pass on true doctrine. Such a version of history is repugnant to God's MERCY.

 

[Marlin]

Why is there a need for anything further than the Holy Scriptures and the Tradition of the original Church, the Catholic Church. After all, if you say that Mormonism and the correct form of religion began with John Smith and his "discoveries" that leaves almost 1800+ years of error, and this would imply that God is indeed a "hard master" for not having left certain men with the power to pass on true doctrine. Such a version of history is repugnant to God's MERCY.

Lawdog, according to my understanding, God took Priesthood authority from the earth after the death of the apostles because people didn't want the truth and were rebelling and apostacizing against it in mass droves. But it's very true that God's mercy covers all mankind everywhere in every time. Those who didn't get to receive the gospel in this life will be given the chance in the afterlife, and the work of baptism and other ordinances for the dead will be performed for them in the holy temples.

It isn't God's will that anyone be lost, but people chose to accept a "strong delusion" over the truth, and the Great Apostasy commenced. Joseph Smith brought back the Priesthood authority to act in God's name in the early 1800s, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which he founded as an instrument in God's hands, has Priesthood authority once again. It will not be taken from the earth again--it's here to stay until the Millennium occurs, and beyond.

 

[Marlin]

In other words, if you are Christians (in the traditional sense), are we Mormons?

I misunderstood your question. I like to think of traditional Christians as "pre-Mormon," as I believe that all who believe in Christ will eventually join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, either in this life or the next.

 

[SnakeLord]

Man, nothing beats sitting back watching religious nuts argue amongst themselves.

"NO! god is like this!"

"NO he isn't, he's like this!"

 

[Brutus1964]

Good point Marlin. We were all Mormons in the Pre-Existence.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Marlin
Ugistered Regster (173 posts)

Yesterday, 03:52 AM
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“ Originally Posted by WildBlueYonder
not a cult? let’s see, mormons believe:

1) they are gods in training
”C.S. Lewis believed this also. Was he a cultist?

What? He believed that mormons believe that “they are gods in training”? or that he believed that he was “a god in training”? the first I would agree with, the 2nd, no way; after his conversion, he was Christian all the way, produce quotes & URL or I’ll think you’re lying

“ 2) that Jesus is the physical son of God the Father & the Holy Ghost
”Just what part of "only begotten Son" don't you understand?

The kind that means sex between the components of god, might as well be Greek mythology then, what’s the diff between God & Zeus? Or God & Jupiter? To mormons, there is no diff apparently, you all need to read John more carefully, before you become total pagans

“ 3) that Jesus & satan are spiritual brothers
”God, Jesus, angels, men, and devils are all of the same race. This doesn't mean that Jesus and Satan are "in cahoots" with each other. You can have a black sheep brother without being that way yourself.

now you are delving into some new age or some such realm, Jesus is the Creator, He is the Word of God, read the Gospel of John 1:1. Angels & demons are created spiritual beings, humans are a combo of spiritual & physical beings. We are all created by God, we can never be God, read the Isaiah

“ 4) that our god was once a good mormon man on some far-off planet
” We don't know this for sure.

“we” as in mormons? Or “we” as in you & the rest of us, me included? As a mormon, you can believe anything you want, but kindly refrain from trying to include me in your beliefs; first of all, God denies ever being one of us; second, if you read the Bible, you would know LDS beliefs are not true; & 3rd, there is no way that I would ever believe that anything that came out of Joe Smith’s mouth or writings was true, except where he plagiarized the KJV Bible

“ 5) that they are the one & only true church
”Many churches believe this about themselves.

& most are cults or like the RCC, deeply flawed

“ 6) that every other church is in apostasy (if they don't follow LDS guidelines)
”Martin Luther and the Reformationists believed this also.

as regards the RCC, he was right; marionism, saints & papal authority & infallibility, as understood by the RCC, is blasphemy & apostasy. Neither belief would stand the test of Scriptures, a test that the LDS fails too

“ 7) that the BoM is a true history of the Americas (now the s. of Mexico as BoM lands shrink)
”So what?

“so what”? why my dear Dr. Watson, everything about the BoM hangs on the balance, on that tiny thin thread, if there never was any BoM people or sites, ergo, the BoM is false, & that’s a BIG “So what!”

“ 8) that Native Peoples were once Jewish immigrants about 2 thousand years ago
”That doesn't make us a "cult."

eh, yeah it does, nobody else, but LDS believe that, against DNA, linguistic, botanical, zoological & archeological evidence. Lets see, would the scientists that believe ‘wrongly’ in your opinion, be “cultists” for believing such false & outrageous things that go against LDS core beliefs? So who’s the “cult” here?

“ 9) that Joe Smith was a true prophet
”You believe that biblical prophets were true prophets. Does that make you a cult?

you may equate both sets, but 1+1 does not equal 3, except in LDS minds. LDS prophets are not, can not be counted among Biblical prophets, they are not following the same god, LDS follows some made-up god, while the Biblical prophets follow the one & only God of the Universe

“ 10) that Joe Smith translated the BoM with peepstones from the original "reformed Egyptian" (a language of which no other samples exist)
”So using a dead language makes one a cultist?

illogical, that would make RCC, Coptic & Areamean churches automatically ‘cults’. What I’m getting at, is that the LDS believes in Joe Smith’s made-up language, “Reformed Egyptian” of which there are no samples extant, because that language never existed prior to J.S.’s foray into religion making

“ 11) the BoM is so full of anachronisms, that anyone with common sense would see that it’s just a novel
”I've given many references refuting the supposed anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. You just shrug them off. (See the next item.)

please, don’t take me for a fool, there is no way that any himming & hawing that can make a deer a “HORSE”, or have iron & steel welding empires of 100’s of thousands, disappear without leaving one rusty old nail?

“ 12) they brainwash their members so, that even when obvious flaws surface, they just follow the LDS blindly
”When I brought up the fact that Moses is not an archeologically verifiable figure, you just shrugged that off also. LDS are encouraged to seek the truth through personal revelation. We don't just accept things blindly.

since you’re comparing the 2, lets get one thing straight, a little thing you might not be familiar with, seeing that you are not an archeologists (amateur or professional), Egyptian pharaohs were notorious for erasing other pharaohs, histories that did not suit their grandeur, they tried omitting Hatshepsut, Ankhenaten & the Hykssos. They only record their victories, it was propaganda in stone. Now LDS want me, to believe that several supposed civilizations, that lasted several thousand years, left no clues to their passing, not even among the Native Peoples that they would have interacted with, unless they didn’t exist? Hmmm?
http://www.molon.de/galleries/Egypt/Luxor/Hatshepsut/

“ yep, I would say it is a "cult", any others think so too?
”Only if you redefine the word "cult" to match your own specialized definition.

me? You’re so “brain-washed” that you can even see how your church is a cult, let alone tell me I’m re-defining words. The only re-definition here, is by LDS officials & the brain-washed members that parrot that robot programming.

“Must comply!, must comply!, MUST COMPLY!!!”

 

[Marlin]

Randolfo, it appears to me that you are being wilfully ignorant. Tell you what: go visit your local LDS church Sacrament meeting this Sunday (visitors are always welcome) and then come back and report on your experience here in this thread. I think you will feel differently about the Church if you have experienced it first-hand.

BTW, I did give a quote with cite and URL from C.S. Lewis (see above in the "Doctrinal Exclusion" link) saying that he believed that we are to become gods and goddesses (if we permit God to do that).

As for Moses, yes, I am aware of the practice of Egyptian pharaohs to eliminate all traces of their less-than-grand exploits. I am trying to make a point: that you resort to the same kind of "hemming and hawing" that you accuse me of doing when you are the one on the defensive. I find that rather hypocritical.

 

[Lawdog]

Lawdog, according to my understanding, God took Priesthood authority from the earth after the death of the apostles because people didn't want the truth and were rebelling and apostacizing against it in mass droves.

Thank you. Please elaborate on the statement quoted above.

1) Where are you finding that this apostacizing against the priesthood occured.

2) Please define/explain you understanding of priesthood

 

[Marlin]

Lawdog, please allow me some time to research your questions, if you will, so I can provide a better response than one just off the top of my head. This may take awhile, as I have several books to read and digest. I've already stated here that I am no expert on the Great Apostasy, so hopefully this research will allow me to learn more about it.

 

[Marlin]

Okay, here is my response to Lawdog.

The concept of a universal "apostasy" from the truth that occurred after the death of the Apostles is a central tenet of Mormon faith. If this apostasy had not occurred, there would have been no need for a "Restoration" of the truth, which we believe happened through the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Nevertheless, the idea that the earth was entirely thrust into darkness is not true. There were and are good men and women everywhere who strive to follow the teachings of Christ to the best of their ability and understanding, and the Light of Christ was and is given to everyone who comes into the world. Thus the "Great Apostasy," or the "falling away" from the truth which Mormons believe happened, was not such that all truth was lost to the world until Joseph Smith came. Rather, it was a loss of Priesthood authority, which authority is God-given to the faithful in all dispensations.

This idea of a "dispensation" requres some further elaboration. Latter-day Saints tend to recognize seven different major dispensations, or the restoration of gospel truths to mankind after apostasy has occurred: those of Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, and Joseph Smith. Doubtless there have been other dispensations, but those are the major ones. Sometime after each dispensation, apostasy has reared its ugly head and men have rebelled against God, thereby losing Priesthood authority (the authority to act in God's name and with God's power on the earth). When this apostasy has been total, there has to be a restoration of the truth and of the Priesthood keys and ordinances.

Although the "Great Apostasy" occurred, that doesn't mean that all truth was lost from the earth. Good men and women through the ages have kept the lamp of truth lit to the best of their abilities. However, in the case of the Great Apostasy, all Priesthood power and authority was lost from the earth, leaving the Church of Christ in a state of apostate truth. It had a form of godliness, but denied the power thereof. It taught for doctrines the commandments of men, and God Himself said that although they drew near Him with their lips, their hearts were far from Him (speaking of the churches in Joseph Smith's day).

According to Alexander B. Morrison,

"The complexity of Christian history and the sheer lack of definitive information about its crucial early years make it difficult at best to pinpoint the causes of the apostasy that Christianity underwent, to ascertain the changes which represent rejection of God's truth and rebellion against Him, and to determine the teachings and practices that remained true to those of Christ and His apostles. [...]

The record of first-century Christianity has large gaps. Almost no reliable documents from that period survived beyond those now included in the New Testament.... There are many things we simply do not know and cannot verify from historical records." (Morrison, Turning from Truth: A New Look at the Great Apostasy, p. 5).​

Nevertheless, it is Joseph Smith's testimony (and mine, and Mormons' in general) that the Apostasy did happen, over the period of centuries, until the church Christ founded was in error in many ways. The fact that God restored the Priesthood through Joseph Smith testifies of this fact. So I guess what I'm saying is, the testimony that the gospel was restored is the greatest evidence that the Apostasy occurred. You can gain this testimony by reading and studying the Book of Mormon, and asking God with pure faith, with real intent, whether it is true or not. If it is wisdom in Him that you should receive this testimony, and you do your part (study and prayer), God will let you know of the truth of the Book of Mormon's veracity. In this manner, you can know if the Apostasy occurred, by the following logical sequence:

If the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was a true prophet.

If Joseph Smith was a true prophet, then the Priesthood he restored is true also.

If it was necessary for the truth to be restored, then the Great Apostasy did happen.

It all comes down to whether you believe in the testimony of Joseph Smith and the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Randolfo, it appears to me that you are being wilfully ignorant.

who? now, you learn how to spell, call me WBY, its easier to type

it appears to me that you are being wilfully ignorant.

when you ignore facts about the BoM's lack of facts, ask any archeologist

it appears to me that you are being wilfully ignorant.

when you ignore all the anachronisms in the BoM, ask any historian

it appears to me that you are being wilfully ignorant.

when you defend a tome that forms no basis in LDS beliefs, ask any mormon

 

[Lawdog]

I agree that there was a sort of APOSTACY in the period following the life of Christ. As it seems, evidence shows that the teachings of the Apostles were rejected by both Jews and Gentiles at first, to the extent that they were willing to kill Jesus' disciples.

Nevertheless, the adoption of Christianity and establishment of Christiandom in the time of the Roman Emperor Constantine, eventhough there may have been many interior theologic struggles, shows that Western Civilization had adopted Faith in God.

Still I would like to hear what you think the main function of the priesthood is.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Just what part of "only begotten Son" don't you understand?

God, Jesus, angels, men, and devils are all of the same race. This doesn't mean that Jesus and Satan are "in cahoots" with each other. You can have a black sheep brother without being that way yourself.

I find the idea that there are many gods, at odds with what the Bible says about God, namely there is only one God, our Creator & Savior.

From the Torah:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd020.html#top

Exd 20:1And God spake all these words, saying,
Exd 20:2I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exd 20:3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exd 20:4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Exd 20:5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
Exd 20:6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu006.html#top

Deu 6:4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
Deu 6:5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

From the Prophets:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa043.html#8

Isa 43:9Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, [It is] truth.
Isa 43:10Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.
Isa 43:12I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when [there was] no strange [god] among you: therefore ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I [am] God.
Isa 43:13Yea, before the day [was] I [am] he; and [there is] none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

And Jesus said:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mar/Mar012.html#28

Mar 12:28And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
Mar 12:29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.
Mar 12:31And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Is this all a mistake? Did Jews get it all wrong? Is “Hear, Oh Israel”, a grammatical error, of which, the 1st Edition of the BoM had thousands, that have had to be corrected? Or did god, like make a mistake, you know, like he can’t count, can’t see beyond himself? Maybe, even lying, I mean, if there are hundreds, or even thousands of gods, why wouldn’t god, like tell us? Why does he have to wait until Joe Smith is bold enough to proclaim this truth? Why, good old Joe, is correcting god, that’s mighty godlike, isn’t it? Yep, a god-in-training must be bold, daring, secretive, polygamous, etc…, no?


And if you don’t trust all the translations of the Bible available, why learn Hebrew or Greek for yourself, since there are available programs to learn them
http://www.learnhebrewisrael.com/
http://www.learnancientgreek.com/

& thousands of manuscripts of the Bible to translate from:
http://alpha.reltech.org:8080/

[1.1] The Biblical Manuscripts Project (http://purl.org/BibleMSS) is making high quality images and transcriptions of important Bible manuscripts and early printed editions freely available through the Internet.

but, alas, there is none for the fictitious “reformed Egyptian”, a language akin to Klingon, as they were both birthed in the minds of creative individuals.

“We invent the Jesus we want, that allows us to live the life we want, if we don’t know who God is.” heard it once from a sermon