Mormon Teachings

[WildBlueYonder]

As for whether there ever was a "mystery" or esoteric teaching in Christianity,

An esoteric teaching is any teaching that is held back from general, public circulation, a teaching not available to everyone but reserved for the initiated. In the LDS context this also involves vicarious ordinances for the dead. The question before us is not whether the specific LDS esoteric teaching is the right one, but whether Christianity ever had any kind of an esoteric teaching at all. For if it did, then it is a Christian phenomenon--whether the modern denominations have it or not, and whether the LDS understanding of it is correct or not.​

​

I just read this & the link; I'll have to spend more time debunking it, but let me start with this;
1) seems to me that Jesus, Paul, John, Peter, James & Jude all spent time going over several things to help us understand Jesus, the NT & the OT, why would they hide somethings, when it seemed they wanted to explain so much in their letters to the early Christians?
2) one verse taken out of context, makes a "cult"; baptizing the dead, for instance. if it’s so important, why only one verse? if we're going to be 'gods', why does it seem that we are just getting 'glorified' bodies?
3) did you read the logic of what you are accepting?

re-read what you wrote, it’s so bogus, you wouldn't let me get away with something so weak!

The question before us is not whether the specific LDS esoteric teaching is the right one...

For if it did, then it is a Christian phenomenon--whether the modern denominations have it or not, and whether the LDS understanding of it is correct or not.

 

[Jenyar]

I agree with WBY. Marlin, your website refers to 1 Corinthians 2 to prove that Christians also employed secret knowledge:

1 Cor. 2:6-7
We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.​

While there is without doubt some teachings that require a more mature faith to understand or accept (the "milk" Paul talks of are the things the LDS talk about most: "instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment" (Hebrews 6:2)), that is not to say it requires a more mature faith to know. The advanced material, the "solid food" is described as "teaching about righteousness" and "distinguishing good from evil". That understanding is there to be accessed from the moment Christ is believed. And Paul confirms this in Corinthians:

(v.9-10)
However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him" — but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.​

When he speaks here of "spiritual truths in spiritual words" (v.13) he refers to the gospel of Christ, who as I've said before, is the mystery of God (Col. 2:2):

Romans 16: 25-26
Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him...

Eph.3:2-6 Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.​

And just in case it is still unclear whether there is any other mystery involved, any other secret knowledge that absolutely needs to be known, he adds this:

Eph. 3:8-12
Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.​

And as we know, even with such a great commission, Paul rarely baptized anyone (1 Cor. 1:14-17), "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel — not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power". Baptism is for those who already believe the message, and therefore are already saved by its power.

To make this knowledge known — to "administer" the mystery — requires no authority but Christ's commission, and no other mediator is necessary to accomplish it. "In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence."

 

[Marlin]

Jenyar, once again it all comes down to whether you believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet or not. If he was, then the temple ceremonies and covenants he restored are valid and necessary for exaltation. If he wasn't, then they are not. It's that simple.

 

[Jenyar]

Jenyar, once again it all comes down to whether you believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet or not. If he was, then the temple ceremonies and covenants he restored are valid and necessary for exaltation. If he wasn't, then they are not. It's that simple.

If you insist. But then, by applying the clear message of the gospel we can deduce that Joseph Smith wasn't a true prophet. The Holy Spirit does not give contradictory messages. Maybe Jospeh Smith was speaking about the truth of the gospel and the reality of Christ, maybe he even received a revelation that confirmed it, but his application of it contradicts the spirit of the gospel.

The temple ceremonies and covenants (are they even mentioned in the BoM?) are absolutely compulsory for someone who wishes to attain what Joseph Smith promised, and for those whose faith in God depends on them, but they are devoid of any merit for anyone who considers God's eternal purpose accomplished (Eph. 3:11) in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

 

[Marlin]

If you want to belong to a lesser kingdom, you don't have to have the temple blessings and covenants. But then you will never have a fulness of joy. Up to each of us to decide where we will end up and then follow through.

 

[Jenyar]

If you want to belong to a lesser kingdom, you don't have to have the temple blessings and covenants. But then you will never have a fulness of joy. Up to each of us to decide where we will end up and then follow through.

God's kingdom is not yours or anyone's to give, so that tactic doesn't work on me. I can't be seduced into wanting more than Christ made available at the cross. It is up to God where we will end up and what we will have.

You know, this whole proposition always sounds to me like the temptation Jesus received in the desert: "The devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 'All this I will give you,' he said, 'if you will bow down and worship me'." I know you're not asking me to worship anybody else, but the lure is the same. Mortal authorities have mortal kingdoms.

Luke 12 says "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom." He was not speaking to certain select individuals, but to the whole flock who follow Him. I do not see anything coming from God as "lesser", and I do not want anything God does not give; He told me exactly what to do for my joy to be complete:

John 15:9-12
"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.​

The most complete joy Jesus ever promised would come when He returns, and while we wait, that joy is there for the taking to those who believe in Him: "Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete" (John 16:24).

And you can't even imagine that joy, let alone say who will have it and who won't. God gives as He pleases, despite anything we do, and His love - His joy - is complete even in the least of those who were saved, because none deserved it.

Eph.3:20-21
Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.​

Don't try to tempt me with any "exaltation". I was baptized into Christ - not into any earthly authority - and am clothed in Him (Gal. 3:27). There is nothing of *me* left to be exalted. Christ was exalted, and my hope is contained in his body and his resurrection. If you think my baptism was invalid, then out the window goes everything you and Roger Keller said about other (non-LDS) Christians being Christians.

 

[Marlin]

Jenyar, let's just agree to disagree, okay? I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and that the truths he restored as God's instrument are of God and not of man. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true, and I also know that there are many outside the LDS Church who have much truth.

If you don't want exaltation, no one is going to force it on you. I'm not trying to "tempt" you. Like I said, let's agree to disagree on the matter, since both of us believe that we are right and cannot evidently be persuaded otherwise.

 

[Marlin]

If you think my baptism was invalid, then out the window goes everything you and Roger Keller said about other (non-LDS) Christians being Christians.

Not so. I do think that you need to be baptized by someone holding the Priesthood, but the LDS Church teaches that other Christians are Christians, independent of the fact that they don't have Priesthood authority.

It ain't us who are calling others "non-Christian cults," like our friend WBY is so fond of doing. We recognize that other Christian denominations are indeed Christian, and the definition of "Christian" we use is the standard dictionary definition, not some specialized "anti-cult" definition concocted to disparage the LDS Church in the eyes of the world. That definition being, those who seek to follow the teachings of Christ in their lives are Christians, regardless of the authority issue.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Not so. I do think that you need to be baptized by someone holding the Priesthood,

Priesthood? Christians are called to be a "priesthood of believers", that's the only authority I believe.

and if this "line of authority" stuff is so important, why was Jesus baptized by a non-priest? I read no passing on of "authority" as an "hierarchal line of decent" in the early church, re-read Acts & some of Paul's letters were they talk about or show how to run a church, namely the Apostles, the Jerusalem Council, home churches, bishops, deacons, missionaries, etc...

methinkesth thou are mixed up by the RCC, where they talk of "apostolic succession" as if that was the only criterion for being the leader of the church, I myself prefer Jesus as the Head of my Church, all others are just so secondary

but the LDS Church teaches that other Christians are Christians, independent of the fact that they don't have Priesthood authority.

that's a recent development, since historically, that was untrue, given Joe Smith's, B. Young's & several others' "divine' opinion of the apostatized churches

It ain't us who are calling others "non-Christian cults," like our friend WBY is so fond of doing.

actually, LDS had so very 'choice' terms for so-called 'gentiles', I find that term offensive coming from 'non-Jews', while I believe that LDS members from pioneer families may be drifting into forming a separate "ethnic" group; with common heritage, language, beliefs, rituals, struggles, goals, etc... you haven’t reached that stage yet

We recognize that other Christian denominations are indeed Christian, and the definition of "Christian" we use is the standard dictionary definition, not some specialized "anti-cult" definition concocted to disparage the LDS Church in the eyes of the world.

concocted? as if the LDS was the first & only! Jesus & John & others spoke about anti-christs, we've had to know the "true" from the "false" since way back, you're not special, LDS go with;

old
Nestorians
Arians
Gnostics
to name a few

New
Jehovah's Witnesses
Seventh-Day Adventists
Apostolic Oneness
to name a few

That definition being, those who seek to follow the teachings of Christ in their lives are Christians, regardless of the authority issue.

I would agree with that, only I prefer stuff I know came from Jesus; not this BoM, WoW or D&C stuff that came from man

 

[WildBlueYonder]

I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet

& that would be how? he wasn't commissioned by God, he seems to have been a money-digger, a con man, his methods after he was "chosen" seem to be the same as when he was a money-digger, even down to the peepstone
so where was the "true" in him?

& why? he seems a false prophet if you look at just 3 things;
1) his claim to fame (prophecy) is the BoM, a novel, that does not fit history, DNA, linguistics or the Bible
2) he didn't confirm the Bible, but cast aspersions onto it & the Church that followed it
2) after he saw his scheme worked, his prophecies came out of convenience, see polygamy, church rules, etc...

and that the truths he restored as God's instrument are of God and not of man. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true,

nice to know that, I like your "testimony", but just knowing that, isn't enough to save you, only Jesus, His church, His rules

and I also know that there are many outside the LDS Church who have much truth.

much? but is that enough?

If you don't want exaltation, no one is going to force it on you. I'm not trying to "tempt" you.

want? we can't even have that. it’s so out of character with what the Bible says,
that only God is GOD
Jesus was willing to shed that just for us, to reconcile us by His blood

 

[Marlin]

Someone seems to think that I'm still conversing with him, when in fact he's just talking to himself. The only way I will respond to WildBlueYonder is after he apologizes for calling my religion a cult, and promises not to do so again.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Someone seems to think that I'm still conversing with him, when in fact he's just talking to himself. The only way I will respond to WildBlueYonder is after he apologizes for calling my religion a cult, and promises not to do so again.

someone seems to think they aren't talking to me, yet they always manage to respond,
come on, pouting is so unbecoming of someone your age

 

[WildBlueYonder]

As for whether there ever was a "mystery" or esoteric teaching in Christianity,

AN ESOTERIC TEACHING IS ANY TEACHING THAT IS HELD BACK FROM GENERAL, PUBLIC CIRCULATION, A TEACHING NOT AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE BUT RESERVED FOR THE INITIATED.

I think those are called Gnostic churches, “cults”, because if people didn’t understand Him, Jesus made sure that they learned, see Him explaining parables to the disciples, or walking on the road to Emmaus

IN THE LDS CONTEXT THIS ALSO INVOLVES VICARIOUS ORDINANCES FOR THE DEAD.

I doubt it, if they were so important, they would have been taught openly, my belief is that when speaking about the “Baptism of the Dead” in Acts, they are talking about the ‘dead’ as in not “Christian”, since Jesus referred to “letting the dead bury the dead”, an impossibility, unless you believe in zombies? OK, I let the ‘cat out of the bag’, yes, Christians believe in zombies walking among the living

THE QUESTION BEFORE US IS NOT WHETHER THE SPECIFIC LDS ESOTERIC TEACHING IS THE RIGHT ONE,

Huh? If it is supposed to be from Jesus, God, Kolob, whatever, it has to be “right”, otherwise, wht teach it?

BUT WHETHER CHRISTIANITY EVER HAD ANY KIND OF AN ESOTERIC TEACHING AT ALL.

Who defines “esoteric”? because there are many hard things to understand in Christianity such as:
“why” is there no specific mention of the Trinity in the OT?
“how” can Jesus be both God & Man?
“do” you have to be circumcised to be saved?
“what” happened to the end of this generation?

FOR IF IT DID, THEN IT IS A CHRISTIAN PHENOMENON—

Maybe, let’s see the evidence first

WHETHER THE MODERN DENOMINATIONS HAVE IT OR NOT,

That would be true, if the ordinance was true also, just like the RCC left out some things, like the Bible! The 10 Commandments, which we know are true & we have to have

AND WHETHER THE LDS UNDERSTANDING OF IT IS CORRECT OR NOT.

why is it still valid then, if it is essentially “false”, only because the LDS believe it? that's wrong, really wrong

 

[Jenyar]

Not so. I do think that you need to be baptized by someone holding the Priesthood, but the LDS Church teaches that other Christians are Christians, independent of the fact that they don't have Priesthood authority.

If my baptism as a Christian is as valid as that of any other Christian (whether LDS, Catholic, or Methodist) then tell me this: why do you suppose God shows favouritism, if we have all been saved by grace? Does He favour the ritualistic obedience of LDS members, even though He told the rest of us that He does not require rituals, only genuine love?

I have a second, more difficult question for you. The Book of Mormon says:

"And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth" (1 Nephi 14:10).​

Are other Christians part of the same church - the church of the Lamb of God - or not?

 

[Marlin]

If my baptism as a Christian is as valid as that of any other Christian (whether LDS, Catholic, or Methodist) then tell me this: why do you suppose God shows favouritism, if we have all been saved by grace? Does He favour the ritualistic obedience of LDS members, even though He told the rest of us that He does not require rituals, only genuine love?

God's house is a house of order, not of confusion (as we see in sectarian Christianity). He has definite guidelines for us all to follow. His authority is necessary for an ordinance like baptism to be valid. This authority is found only in the LDS Priesthood. That said, however, even as I write this, LDS people are working hard in the temples to do baptisms and other ordinances for the dead by proxy. Everyone will have the chance to accept a baptism, whether in the body or after death. God does not show favoritism.

I have a second, more difficult question for you. The Book of Mormon says:

"And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth" (1 Nephi 14:10).​

Are other Christians part of the same church - the church of the Lamb of God - or not?

True Christians, whatever their denomination is, are of the church of the Lamb of God. There are some in the LDS Church who are not of this church, as well. Only God can judge the hearts of men, regardless of what denomination they belong to.

 

[Marlin]

I said,

God does not show favoritism.

I should say that God does favor the righteous; however, He doesn't show initial favoritism to anyone; all are alike, and it is only sin which makes men unequal in God's eyes.

 

[Mr.Jack4WAR]

haha no one knows the truth, i love it wen people THINK they no so mcuh yet they dont.

btw-mormons, r.. incredibly stupid

 

[Marlin]

Graduated grade school English with honors, did we, Jack?

 

[water]

True Christians, whatever their denomination is, are of the church of the Lamb of God. There are some in the LDS Church who are not of this church, as well. Only God can judge the hearts of men, regardless of what denomination they belong to.

But with an addition:

You said

"Priesthood authority is necessary for baptism to be recognized by God"

and only LDS have it.

According to you, God recognizes no other authority than that of the LDS.
("To obtain this ultimate degree of salvation, it is necessary to "obey the laws and ordinances of the gospel." (Third Article of Faith) These laws and ordinances are taught in their fulness only by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.")

God may judge the hearts of men, but men need the approval of the LDS to be recognized before God.

There is no way that God would save someone (in full), unless this person is approved by the LDS.

 

[Jenyar]

God's house is a house of order, not of confusion (as we see in sectarian Christianity).

I've heard this "sectarian Christianity" argument before, but it's strange strange coming from someone who believes the true church is seen in "the hearts of men, regardless of what denomination they belong to". It's an even worse argument when considering that the LDS church has different factions among themselves as well. Why is there already a Reorganized Church of Latter-Day Saints 170 years into its existence? It seems to be going down the same road as the early church headed by the first apostles (1 Cor. 11:18-19). And that church didn't even have name, it was Christ's body; Christ's church. So to quote you: "True Christians, whatever their denomination is, are of the church of the Lamb of God."

Some information on Mormon denominations and splinter groups: The Mormon Denominations and Groups within the
Latter Day Saint Movement (The page "is devoted to the study of the history and theology of those groups which can be traced back to the Church of Christ organized by Joseph Smith, Jr. in 1830.")

He has definite guidelines for us all to follow. His authority is necessary for an ordinance like baptism to be valid. This authority is found only in the LDS Priesthood. That said, however, even as I write this, LDS people are working hard in the temples to do baptisms and other ordinances for the dead by proxy. Everyone will have the chance to accept a baptism, whether in the body or after death. God does not show favoritism.

His authority, not man's authority. God's authority is Christ, and it is delegated directly - without any further need for mediation - to each Christian. There are only "living stones" in the church of the Lamb:

1 Peter 2:4-5
As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him—you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.​

You have never been able to show me that Peter, James or John had ever received any authority that had specifically to do with ordinances. It is simpy a neccessary assumption the LDS has to make for their claim to exlcusivity. And despite what you say, exclusivity it is. Because we all know that nobody can ever quote you or Mr. Keller for any authority - because they don't "represent official doctrine", and that will be that. We must simply trust that all Mormons will agree that Christians outside the LDS are part of "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (D&C 1:30). If that is the case, our sacraments without such a priesthood are just as valid as yours with the LDS priesthood, and you have no more earthly authority than any other Christian. If that is not the case, God does indeed show favouritism among His children. And will Mormons believe you, Roger Keller, or the apostle Orson Pratt?

But who in this generation have authority to baptize? None but those who have received authority in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives baptism or the Lord's Supper from their hands will highly offend God; for He looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people. Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornication and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act (The Seer, p. 255).​

Besides, your assertions seem contradictory. To quote you:
"Not so. I do think that you need to be baptized by someone holding the Priesthood, but the LDS Church teaches that other Christians are Christians, independent of the fact that they don't have Priesthood authority";
Compare that with "His authority is necessary for an ordinance like baptism to be valid. This authority is found only in the LDS Priesthood."
As you know, I was not baptized by an LDS Priest. So I ask you to clarify: is my baptism valid, as you said?