Mormon Teachings

[WildBlueYonder]

Randolfo

The website you gave me has a passage that supports the idea of a Native American and Israelite connection.

many people believed that back then & for years afterwards, they couldn't believe that Native Aborigines could produce high culture without 'Old World' help, they didn't know better, they didn't even know where these 'Injuns' came from, need I remind you that Europeans called them "Indians" (Indios), as in "from India", & didn't correct that misconception earlier, otherwise we would have called them "Judians" soon after de las Casas had proven his theory right these past centuries.

Why would Bartholeme de Las Casas have the impression there was a connection unless he found some tribes in Amerca practicing some Jewish traditions. It seems what you have given me is good evidence that there is in fact a connection.

need I remind you that the Spanish had recently just proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the world was round, science was in its infancy, Europeans were not in a position then of true scientific evaluation of genetics, cultural anthropology, linguistics, or geography. so, if de las Casas had found something, he should have written what those connections were, because as a Spaniard, de las Casas was in a position to remark on whatever Jewish customs Spanish Catholics knew about, before the recent expulsion of the Spanish Jews in 1492.

oh, and what were those 'traditions' that you allude to? were they cutting out beating hearts to feed the sun god by the Mexica? or Mayans sticking stingray spines through their tongue or penis, to induce hallucinations through pain & then pulling a cord through the wound to gather blood to burn so they could see their gods? hmmm, crazy Spaniards, they must of mistaked the first rite for jewish defilement of the holy Eucharist and the second for circumcision? what do you think? rationalize for me, I want to see your brain do contortions & somersaults
read on Maya:
http://www.halfmoon.org/vision.html
http://www.civilization.ca/civil/maya/mmc03eng.html

read these books:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0807612782/102-8875391-8532164
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_2/102-8875391-8532164?v=glance&s=books

Also many Book of Mormon critics fail to mention that Lehi and Nephi where not from the tribe of Judah. They were not ethnic Jews. .

so, they would be ethnic Lehites & Nephites? tell us, what would they be? BTW, what does Lehi or Nephi mean in Hebrew? don't know, ask someone, google it

They came from the tribe of Joseph so this is one explanation why no Native Americans have been shown to have ethnic Jewish DNA. .

ah, could you check your facts again, was not Joseph the 9th son, younger brother of all those others, including Levi & Judah, the son of Jacob (called Israel)? he was in my Bible, in yours was he the brother of Magog or Gomer?

The article you gave me suggests that many cultures including Chinese and Japanese may have connection to the lost 10 tribes as well..

the blind are blind indeed, tell us, of all those mentioned in that quest, which proved a Jewish connection? only one, the Lembi.
check it out, they said they were Jewish, they jewish-like rituals, they had kosher-like customs & in the final analyst, the blood spoke; their DNA had cohanen DNA markers
see:
http://216.239.63.104/search?q=cach...-mcgowan.htm+lembi+dna&hl=en&client=firefox-a

Also the tour guide that gave us the Book of Mormon tour was Dr. Jose Davila who is a well known LDS Archeologist. .

delusion is a serious problem under LSD doctrine

He is of Mayan decent and specializes in Book of Mormon artifacts. He believes the Mayans are in fact the descendents of the BofM peoples..

& his evidence is displayed in what museum or university, his work is published in what non-mormon journals?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Randolfo

The website you gave me has a passage that supports the idea of a Native American and Israelite connection.


Why would Bartholeme de Las Casas have the impression there was a connection unless he found some tribes in Amerca practicing some Jewish traditions. It seems what you have given me is good evidence that there is in fact a connection.

Also many Book of Mormon critics fail to mention that Lehi and Nephi where not from the tribe of Judah. They were not ethnic Jews. They came from the tribe of Joseph so this is one explanation why no Native Americans have been shown to have ethnic Jewish DNA. The article you gave me suggests that many cultures including Chinese and Japanese may have connection to the lost 10 tribes as well.

hohum, still waiting for your interpretations of what you really meant & why you got just one part of the message, the show on Jewish claimants only proved one (the Lembi), all others are just rumored; no blood, no language, no customs, in common, just like the BoM people, how funny, no?

 

[Brutus1964]

Randolpho

It is my understanding that the Mayans did not start engaging in human sacrifice until after the "classic period" 300-900 BC. During this creative period they did practice animal sacrifice but during their decline it degenerated into human sacrifice.

There is no way to trace the DNA from anyone from the tribe of Joseph because we do not have any samples of people that we also know to be from this tribe. We cannot assume that someone from the tribe of Judah would have similar DNA or any DNA just because they shared one common ancestor. It is just like if you took a Jewish person in America and compared their DNA with a Jew in Israel. Even if they both had a common ancestor a couple of thousand years ago I doubt that a match would be made. It is just like if they dug up a perfectly preserved Jewish mummy from 2000 years ago and compared his DNA with modern Jews I doubt they would be similar if at all. Scientists claim that Native Americans came across a land bridge to this continent from Asia. Have they ever been able to match Indian and Asian DNA and get a match? I doubt it. Too much time and too many generations have gone by.

Read http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMEvidence.shtml#DNA

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Randolfo
(bad speller still, why don't you copy & paste it?)
It is my understanding that the Mayans did not start engaging in human sacrifice until after the "classic period" 300-900 BC. During this creative period they did practice animal sacrifice but during their decline it degenerated into human sacrifice.

There is no way to trace the DNA from anyone from the tribe of Joseph because we do not have any samples of people that we also know to be from this tribe. We cannot assume that someone from the tribe of Judah would have similar DNA or any DNA just because they shared one common ancestor. It is just like if you took a Jewish person in America and compared their DNA with a Jew in Israel. Even if they both had a common ancestor a couple of thousand years ago I doubt that a match would be made. It is just like if they dug up a perfectly preserved Jewish mummy from 2000 years ago and compared his DNA with modern Jews I doubt they would be similar if at all. Scientists claim that Native Americans came across a land bridge to this continent from Asia. Have they ever been able to match Indian and Asian DNA and get a match? I doubt it. Too much time and too many generations have gone by.

Read http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMEvidence.shtml#DNA

you miss a lot, by only reading mormon sources, they are by difinition "biased".

!!!Newsflash!!!!
yes, there is evidence that Native Americans are related to Asians, read more, "google" it

 

[water]

Brutus,

Will you answer my questions?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Funny, how for a religion that says that they were founded here in the Western Hemisphere, whose various members say or have said, "that Mayans or other Mexicans are the remnants of some ancient 'Reformed Egyptian'-speaking Jewish civilization" that wrote the Book of Mormon. says they are the one & only true church, has no proof of any of their claims, that when you google the keywords " "BYU archeology" mexico ", that the only two sites that Google finds are this Sciforums thread & the one in Angelfire below:

http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=781837#post781837

http://www.angelfire.com/trek/forthetruth/filmore.html

The Man Behind the Finding of These Ancient Brass Plates
The plates pictured here were found while searching the under ground shaft, which was built around 450 ad. It's contents seem to be protected by a series of "booby traps", as a number of people have mysteriously been killed trying to enter the tunnel. In the early 1960's, Jose Davila, (who was able to discern what the glyphs said), took a couple of BYU archeology students to this location, where they tried lowering someone down the hole. Here is the story.
Del Allgood owned a small rock shop in Fillmore UT. He was a talented man and could do the most amazing things with an old twisted up piece of wood or a pile of ordinary rocks. If he wasn't busy creating his works of art he was in the hill's looking for more recourses to build his art with. It was during one of these excursions that he stumbled upon the mysterious symbol site in the hills above Fillmore Utah. Even though he wasn't the first to discover them, he did take an unusual interest in them in trying to figure out their meaning. Del worked at the local gas station to help subsidize his income. He loved talking to the customers about the symbols and the Spanish mines in the mountains. One day a man from Salt Lake City stopped by for a fill up. As usual Del started talking about the symbols and how they almost looked like Egyptian hieroglyphs. In an unusual turn of fate, the customer knew a professional treasure hunter named Jose Davila, who could read Egyptian. Jose is from Mexico but just happened to be in Salt Lake City that week.

If this story were true, there would have been MAJOR news & academia activities.

Stop & think, what would be the result of someone finding a real dinosaur, ala "Jurassic park", tell us, would there be a similar commotion if a verifiable Egyptian or Jewish civilization could be tied to the Western Hemisphere?

 

[Marlin]

Randolfo writes:
Funny, how for a religion that says that they were founded here in the Western Hemisphere, whose various members say or have said, "that Mayans or other Mexicans are the remnants of some ancient 'Reformed Egyptian'-speaking Jewish civilization" that wrote the Book of Mormon.

No, on a couple of points. First of all, Mormons believe that the "Reformed Egyptian" you are mentioning was only used by the prophet-historians in their writing, not speaking, and this because it was compact and they could fit more on the plates by using it instead of Hebrew. Mormon, the major author, states that if the plates had been written in Hebrew, there would have been no imperfections in them. So no, the language spoken by the Lehites was not Reformed Egyptian.

Second, the Mayans and other Mexicans are not necessarily the descendants of the Lehites. It is apparently believed by many scientists and anthropologists that many Native Americans came from northeast Asia sometime in the last 20,000 to 25,000 years ago. The Book of Mormon peoples would have occupied only a smaller part of the population of the Americas, IMHO.

Stop & think, what would be the result of someone finding a real dinosaur, ala "Jurassic park", tell us, would there be a similar commotion if a verifiable Egyptian or Jewish civilization could be tied to the Western Hemisphere?

There will be such a commotion. Wait for it.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

No, on a couple of points. First of all, Mormons believe that the "Reformed Egyptian" you are mentioning was only used by the prophet-historians in their writing,

& does it look like real Egyptian?

The Book of Mormon peoples would have occupied only a smaller part of the population of the Americas, IMHO.

Funny, but initial opinion from early mormons was that these so-called civilizations were continent-wide, now that science has reared its ugly head, their territory has shrung, wait a few years & it will have vanished

There will be such a commotion. Wait for it.

should we hold our breath?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Hey mormons, read it & weep!!!

here's how you really prove that you have jewish ancestors, ala BoM; DNA, stories, customs, etc... watch it, if you dare!!!

http://www.historychannel.com/globa...atId=12401155&CaseId=12401153&EGrpId=12391521
The Lost Tribe of Israel.
Airs on Monday, March 14 at 9:00pm ET

The mystery of the 10 Lost Tribes of Israel has fascinated people through the ages. Explorers claim to have discovered evidence of the "lost tribes" all over the world, from Australia to Siberia, but few if any such claims have been backed up by solid evidence. But now a provocative possibility about the whereabouts of one of the tribes has emerged--and it's 4,000 miles from Israel--in Southern Africa.
...
As Josh discovers, recent DNA studies point to the Lemba's true origin in the Middle East.TVPG

 

[Marlin]

No, on a couple of points. First of all, Mormons believe that the "Reformed Egyptian" you are mentioning was only used by the prophet-historians in their writing, ”

& does it look like real Egyptian?

No, it looks like modern English. Ya hee hee, gotcha on that one old boy!

The Book of Mormon peoples would have occupied only a smaller part of the population of the Americas, IMHO.

Funny, but initial opinion from early mormons was that these so-called civilizations were continent-wide, now that science has reared its ugly head, their territory has shrung, wait a few years & it will have vanished

Yes, we must realize that the territory has "shrung" and that yes, we learn as we go. It's called learning because we don't yet have all the answers. There is no shame in believing something mistakenly and then correcting it when we find it to be erroneous.

“ There will be such a commotion. Wait for it. ”

should we hold our breath?

Only if you want your face to turn red, old bean! Sheesh, the questions people come up with....

Hey mormons, read it & weep!!!

here's how you really prove that you have jewish ancestors, ala BoM; DNA, stories, customs, etc... watch it, if you dare!!!

Oh no! You've trumped us this time! I actually don't dare to watch it, I'm so steeped in ignorance and trepidation. You win, old bean! The television is always right.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Yes, we must realize that the territory has "shrung" and that yes, we learn as we go. It's called learning because we don't yet have all the answers. There is no shame in believing something mistakenly and then correcting it when we find it to be erroneous.

funny, how the so-called prophet & early leaders seemed to think so, wonder where else they erred?

Only if you want your face to turn red, old bean!

are we being racist here, can't win logically, so you turn to the ugly past? that's weak man

Oh no! You've trumped us this time! I actually don't dare to watch it, I'm so steeped in ignorance and trepidation. You win, old bean! The television is always right. :-D

sarcasm & racism, don't become you
first of all, its just a show, that lucky for me, brings out a now well known fact (that the Lembi of S. Africa have jewish ancestors),
so that people can compare it to the mormon claim that BoM people were jewish (or Josephites as one recently said);
see no proof whatsoever, then make a judgment call, true or false?,
looks false to me, what say you?

 

[Marlin]

sarcasm & racism, don't become you

I wasn't being racist. You misunderstood me if you interpreted my comments to be so. The phrase, "only if you want your face to turn red" refers to the color one's face DOES turn when one holds his breath. "Old bean" is not racist either.

Marlin

 

[Marlin]

first of all, its just a show, that lucky for me, brings out a now well known fact (that the Lembi of S. Africa have jewish ancestors),
so that people can compare it to the mormon claim that BoM people were jewish (or Josephites as one recently said);
see no proof whatsoever, then make a judgment call, true or false?,
looks false to me, what say you?

What say I? Well, I would say this: that absence of evidence is not evidence. The absence of evidence=evidence of absence argument is fallacious, as you may know. Only when every inch of dirt in the Americas has been dug up and analyzed, only when every bit of skeletal DNA ever found on the American continents has been analyzed, can we make blanket statements like, "We have absolute proof that the Native Americans are not descended from Hebrews." Until then, there is always some bit of speculation on both sides of the coin.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

What say I? Well, I would say this: that absence of evidence is not evidence. The absence of evidence=evidence of absence argument is fallacious, as you may know. Only when every inch of dirt in the Americas has been dug up and analyzed, only when every bit of skeletal DNA ever found on the American continents has been analyzed, can we make blanket statements like, "We have absolute proof that the Native Americans are not descended from Hebrews." Until then, there is always some bit of speculation on both sides of the coin.

2 points;
1) every sq inch? you must be joking, just Palmyra NY & Mexico
http://www.vintageviews.org/vv-tl/biographies/pages/cpa006.html
http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=545&mp=T

2) since you obviously copied the standard "absence of evidence" mormon defence, here is a comment by a critic

http://www.lds-mormon.com/science1.shtml
If lack of evidence for the proposition allows inference that the proposition is wrong, then the lack of evidence for the proposition constitutes evidence (though not necessarily proof) against the proposition.

A useful tool for evaluating faulty reasoning is to determine if the argument applies to cases that result in ludicrous conclusions. I could say that the lack of evidence for unicorns and leprechauns does not constitute evidence against them. Similarly, your argument could be used to defend the possible existence of any unobservable phenomena.

so in responce, I'll copy a previous post from an old thread

http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=11087&page=12&pp=20
Bigot? Only because I won't agree with you and yours? I think the BoM is bigoted; any book that would take the civilizations founded by Native Peoples (savage Indians to many people in J. Smith's time) away from them and gives it to "foreign civilized Israelites", is bigoted. Smith had no sense of science, history or linguistics. His BoM is a sham, no serious scientist or historian would endorse it.

Any claim by mormons that the BoM is true would have to pass at least these minimum points:
1) BoM sites found & excavated in the Americas
2) BoM artifacts deciphered & found to be "Israelite"
3) pre-columbian metal, glass & agricultural produces found on those sites
4) linguistic or oral traditions should mark one or more Native Peoples as "Israelite", such as the Lemba have in Africa: http://www.bioethics.umn.edu/geneti...case.html#lemba, * I need to search again, this site has been changed, see below last quote
5) genetic markers of some Native peoples should correspond to Jewish halo types
6) publication of those findings in any major university, geographic society or museum journal

If it could pass these simple things that the Bible has, in Middle East archeology, then we could see if people like me would be willing to take Moroni's promise seriously, but to me "False" history equals "FALSE" religion.

*
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/
But now, surprisingly, new advances in genetics are dispelling myth and fantasy, and raising a curtain on the forgotten reality of the dispersal that happened so many centuries ago. This story will follow the first attempt to use the new tests to investigate a seemingly improbable African candidate for a Lost Tribe. It will dramatize a scientific quest that leads from the gene labs of London to the remote bush country of Zimbabwe and the lunar-like desert wilderness of southern Yemen.

Original broadcast date: 02/22/2000
Topic: human biology/behavior, anthropology/ancient

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Yes, we must realize that the territory has "shrung" and that yes, we learn as we go. It's called learning because we don't yet have all the answers. There is no shame in believing something mistakenly and then correcting it when we find it to be erroneous.

I agree, you're right, there is no shame in admitting you're wrong, then going on from there, the reviewer here says so too, see below:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=/ref=cm_lm_asin/102-8772367-6064137?v=glance
Insider's View of Mormon Origins
by Grant H. Palmer

Customer Reviews
Avg. Customer Review:
Write an online review and share your thoughts with other customers.
5 of 5 people found the following review helpful:
Based on Careful Historical Research, March 17, 2005
Reviewer:
bill hamer "billhamer.com" - See all my reviews

This is the most discerning examination of any religion that I have read. It respectfully chronicles well-documented facts without malice. It provides an open view of the historical background of the unique scriptures and doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Although LDS member Grant Palmer analyzes Joseph Smith's motives, he doesn't criticize the founding prophet personally. And although he criticizes the accuracy of the Mormon history that is taught within the LDS Church, he doesn't criticize the organization itself or its leadership. Palmer's humility is a welcome contrast to the arrogance that is often found in books that are critical of belief systems.

Palmer apparently loves the LDS Church and cherishes his family's Mormon heritage. His aim in the book is not to disparage, but to encourage a more cooperative relationship between Mormons and traditional Christianity through open-minded understanding. He makes it clear that rational Mormons no longer have the option of believing in the historicity of the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham, or the validity of Mormon claims to exclusive priesthood authority. It's time for the LDS Church to abandon the "one and only true church" position and to move towards becoming part of Christianity as other 19th Century religious movements are now doing, including the Community of Christ (RLDS) Church. I hope that no one will be afraid of reading the book, because there is nothing in it to fear except the truth.

& the chink in the armor is the foundation documents, the BoM most obvious, the Book of Abraham right next, see below:

http://www.lds-mormon.com/ferg.shtml
In 1973, Michael Coe, one of the best known authorities on archaeology of the New World, wrote an article for Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought. In this article he addressed the issue in a very forthright manner:
"Mormon archaeologists over the years have almost unanimously accepted the Book of Mormon as an accurate, historical account of the New World peoples.... Let me now state uncategorically that as far as I know there is not one professionally trained archaeologist, who is not a Mormon, who sees any scientific justification for believing the foregoing to be true, and I would like to state that there are quite a few Mormon archaeologists who join this group....
"The bare facts of the matter are that nothing, absolutely nothing, has even shown up in any New World excavation which would suggest to a dispassionate observer that the Book of Mormon, as claimed by Joseph Smith, is a historical document relating to the history of early migrants to our hemisphere." (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Summer 1973, pp. 41, 42 & 46)

when you're ready to learn more, come here:

[SIZE]http://www.concernedchristians.org/
Concerned Christians is a non-profit organization of Christians who have a desire to reach out in love to the Mormon community with the truth of God's Word, the Holy Bible.[/SIZE]

 

[Marlin]

Quoting Bill Hamer:
"Palmer's humility is a welcome contrast to the arrogance that is often found in books that are critical of belief systems."

Read your own quotes, Mr. Randolfo. You have previously told me that you have it in for Mormons, cults, and Islam because they "lie about Mexicans and Chistianity." You are biased from the very beginning.

So please don't pretend to be otherwise. You have it in for Mormon teachings and beliefs and won't accept any evidence to the contrary. When the internal evidence of the BoM is ignored (i.e., the witness of the Holy Spirit within one's heart that Mormonism and the Book of Mormon are true), you are left grasping at external straws. You can never discredit the internal evidence because you never put it to the test (see Moroni 10:3-5).

Come back after reading the BoM, praying about it with real intent, and dropping your bias, and then we'll talk.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

When the internal evidence of the BoM is ignored (i.e., the witness of the Holy Spirit within one's heart that Mormonism and the Book of Mormon are true), you are left grasping at external straws. You can never discredit the internal evidence because you never put it to the test (see Moroni 10:3-5).

you're joking, right?
the internal evidence is that the BoM is a fraud, it is full of anachronisms, you can make a notebook on all the stuff, like; animals, technology, customs, language, etc...

if I take the Moroni plunge for the Quran, would God say it is true? 1.1 billion muslims say its true, they believe it in their hearts, do you? if I did it for hinduism or buddhism, would I be able to tell the diff, if its in my heart? they believe too, would you?

 

[Marlin]

You'll never know until you try sincerely, Randolfo. Quit dancing around the issue if you really want to know. Moroni's Promise is faithful and true, but it only works if you have real intent, sincerity, and are willing to pay the price of that knowledge--prayer, fervent study, and faith that Christ can reveal truth to you within your heart.

 

[water]

You'll never know until you try sincerely, Randolfo. Quit dancing around the issue if you really want to know. Moroni's Promise is faithful and true, but it only works if you have real intent, sincerity, and are willing to pay the price of that knowledge--prayer, fervent study, and faith that Christ can reveal truth to you within your heart.

You do realize that "if you have real intent, sincerity, and are willing to pay the price of that knowledge", then you can believe anything?

 

[Marlin]

All I can say is, it worked for me. I know without a doubt that the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's true church on the earth today. I know this because God gave me a witness in my heart that such is the case. No one can take this testimony away from me. It is engraven in my heart.