Mormon Teachings

[Brutus1964]

Water

Q: Please tell me: Why would I want to be exalted?

A: Do you want everything that God has now. Do you want to fulfill your very purpose of being? Do you want to spend eternity knowing you could have lived with God forever and partaken in all his blessings? There will be a time that you will remember your pre-Earth life and you will have a full understanding what it was all about. You will know what your true destiny was and that you fell short.

Q: Why do you do work for the dead?

A: Because baptism and certain ordinances are essential for salvation. All must receive them or they cannot enter God's Kingdom. This includes any of the three Kingdoms. Everyone who has ever lived must have these things done for them if they cannot do it for themselves. Therefore we have temples that we do the work for those who have died. When the work is done for a person then they can accept or reject it. It is there choice they still have their free will, but at least they had a choice. If the work is not done for them they have no choice.

Q: Those who, for whatever reason, haven't heard of the Gospel -- *God* knows that, and *God* will not and does not put it against them. Why should He?! God knows it is not their fault that they haven't heard the Gospel, and God knows that they haven't rejected it by their own fault -- so how could God find blame with them?
But it is the *people* (like you) who have a problem with those who haven't heard of the Gospel.

And so you have appointed yourselves to do something so that *your* idea of "God neither condemns nor saves anyone in ignorance. God will give everyone ample opportunity to accept or reject him." comes through and so that *your* understanding of "God neither condemns nor saves anyone in ignorance. God will give everyone ample opportunity to accept or reject him." will make sense to *you*.

You are actually assuming God's trickery, so that you can justify what you do for the dead.

A: It is God that has commanded us to do work for the dead. We cannot expect to have God's blessings if we do not help others.

Q: What does it mean to be "given full knowledge of him"?
Do you think that *knowledge* can be *given*?

A: Given full knowledge is to have a 1st person witness of Him. You no longer have to live by faith. You have a 100% sure knowledge of God. Very few people are given this great blessing. However, at the time of our final judgment we will all have a sure knowledge of him. If we accept him then we will be given our reward if we reject him at that time you will be condemned forever.

Q: I don't think this is possible at all
A human would have to be omnipotent if he would want to deny absolute knowledge.

Well, in a way this is in accord with what you are saying about a human's god-potential.

But then again, if you claim it is possible to "know first hand that God and Jesus Christ are real and who they are and then deny them anyway" then you are also saying that humans are gods or have god-potential. But then I do not see why there is to be a God, a Creator at all. We're all gods, all potentially equal. And we have our little god fights...

A: We all have a potential to be Gods but only some of us are up to it. There are no God fights because only those that overcome pettiness and pride can obtain Godhood. There is too much responsibility. It is a long journey towards that goal but we all have the ability to achieve it.

Q: No no no. Saying that you do "the works because Jesus Christ has commanded us to" is not enough.
You have to explain why Christ is so important. For your salvation. Alright. But why? Why do you want that sort of salvation? Because Joseph Smith said so?

A: Christ is so important because he paved the way for us. Without him it would be impossible to return to God. Even one small sin separates us from God. It isn't because God cannot be with a sinful person it is because a sinful person cannot abide being in the presence of God. Christ is the emissary between us and the Father. Without Christ we could never get back to God the Father that is why he is so important.

 

[Jenyar]

I don't see where you get the impression that Mormons believe it is ourselves that saves us instead of Christ.

It's a neat trick, playing word-games like this. Let me spell it out: exaltation is by works, right? According to you, when God said "ye are gods", He was actually talking to Mormons, who with the aid of Joseph Smith would realize it really means "ye will become gods", and that this is not available to anyone outside Joseph Smith's revelation.

If someone is for all intents and purposes a true Christian, being baptized and confessing Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice in word and deed, he is still disqualified from "exaltation" according to the Mormon church. In other words, it means only the LDS church dispenses exaltation; it can be separated from Christ but not from Joseph Smith. And as you have explained, for all practical intents and purposes, being exalted is being actually saved, while being "saved" is just how far God was willing to bring us.

Without Christ it wouldn't matter what works we do. We do the works because Jesus Christ has commanded us to, not because we think that doing them we can save ourselves. We are baptized because it is an act that shows we are accepting Christ. The act in itself does not save us. There is nothing magical about the water in itself that washes away our sins. It is symbolism that Christ gives us to remind us of him. Baptism is about going into the water symbolizing dying and going into the grave then coming up out of the water which symbolizes our resurrection and being reborn. The water itself symbolizes being cleansed of your sins. Just like the sacrament symbolizes the body and blood of Jesus Christ. The ordinances that must be performed for exaltation all lead to Jesus Christ. It is Him that saves us. Not the symbols. It is the things that the symbols represent that are important.

In that case, I have to ask for the third time: what do those Christians who also believe this still lack?

The italicized sentences are important, because you are here putting "being saved" and "being exalted" in the same category: "it is Him that saves us". If being "saved" means God comes to us, that He has come near to us, then all that is left for being "exalted" is to reach out in dependence and accept Him, right there where you are, whoever you are, wherever you are. That is the euangelion, the gospel, the "good news".

Mark 1:15
“The time has come,” [Jesus] said. “The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!”​

There was no "catch". The law was sufficient to condemn even Christ -- the most innocent victim imaginable -- to death. Joseph Smith did not need to add more "ordinances". Now you have to work hard to give dead people what God already gave them -- the resurrection -- and even harder to attain what Jesus considered inferior to sacrificial love: godhood.

According to Joseph Smith, with his perfectly obedient and faithful life Jesus was only able to buy us a consolation prize, and we have to buy the rest ourselves. Unlike Jesus, who humbled himself (Philippians 2:8), we should exalt ourselves, and Joseph Smith (or one of his prophets) has to bless our efforts. Our names aren't written in heaven anymore (Hebrews 12:23), but on a piece of paper with an LDS stamp on it.

In other words, even being a high priest forever of the order of Melchizedec, having been given all authority under heaven, Jesus cannot completely reconcile us with God anymore. He is not the only one authorized to enter the Most Holy anymore. No, we have need for another Temple, and other priests to enter it, and other prophets to preach his gospel. Except that it is apparent from all these things that it isn't his gospel but a different one, because it declares the inheritance He bestowed on us insufficient.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance–-now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Colossians 1:12-13
...giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves​

 

[Jenyar]

We are baptized because it is an act that shows we are accepting Christ. The act in itself does not save us.

A: Because baptism and certain ordinances are essential for salvation. All must receive them or they cannot enter God's Kingdom. This includes any of the three Kingdoms.

That's what happens when you make Christ's work powerless. He can no longer say to the criminal next to him “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43), the Mormon church has to do it for Him.

 

[water]

Brutus,

Tell my why this does not suffice:


"Those who, for whatever reason, haven't heard of the Gospel -- *God* knows that, and *God* will not and does not put it against them. Why should He?! God knows it is not their fault that they haven't heard the Gospel, and God knows that they haven't rejected it by their own fault -- so how could God find blame with them?"


Why must you enter, LDS? I know you say you were commanded to.

But I want to know why you think that my explanation is insufficient.

 

[Brutus1964]

Jenyar

Are you denying that baptism is essential for salvation?

Christ himself was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness". Are you better than Christ that you feel there is no need to fulfill all righteousness and be baptized yourself?

I will answer your question about what other Christian’s lack. They lack the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. They lack a full understanding of who God is and what his plan is for us. They lack the authority to perform ordinances essential for salvation. They lack a living prophet who can let them know the will of God. They only have the Bible to guide them which can be interpreted several ways, and lack an anchor like a prophet who can give the proper interpretation of scripture. The Bible contains only a trifle of God's words. It is incomplete. It has been tampered with by deceiving men and even righteous men with good intentions. They lack other scriptures that God has preserved and given to men such as the Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. These books and other Revelations give us the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is his church. The only Church established by Christ to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man.

 

[Brutus1964]

Brutus,

Tell my why this does not suffice:


"Those who, for whatever reason, haven't heard of the Gospel -- *God* knows that, and *God* will not and does not put it against them. Why should He?! God knows it is not their fault that they haven't heard the Gospel, and God knows that they haven't rejected it by their own fault -- so how could God find blame with them?"


Why must you enter, LDS? I know you say you were commanded to.

But I want to know why you think that my explanation is insufficient.

Water

God does not hold it against them. That is why he has prepared a way for them to recieve all ordinences essential for salvation. When they accept the gospel in the spirit world then everything will have been done for them. No one will be exempted.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints *IS* the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is his church. He established his church in modern times through his prophet Joseph Smith. Gordon B. Hinkley is his prophet today. To say you do not need the church is to say you do not need Jesus Christ. It is His church. It is the same church that Jesus Christ established when he was here on Earth. The LDS Church is the modern version of it. That is why we call ourselves Latter-day Saints.

 

[Jenyar]

Jenyar

Are you denying that baptism is essential for salvation?

Christ himself was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness". Are you better than Christ that you feel there is no need to fulfill all righteousness and be baptized yourself?

No, but Christ was not baptized to be saved, was He? Besides, you're not telling me to be baptized into Christ, but into the Mormon church.

Christ was baptized to fulfil the requirements of the law, and He did that for us. In Him we find our righteousness and our salvation. He was baptized to show how He identifies with God, acknowledging John's message, and we are baptized to show how we identify with Him, acknowledging His message. His message was not the Mormons church; it is not the gospel He preached.

1 Cor. 1:30
It is because of [God] that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–-that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Philippians 3:9-10
... and be found in [Christ], not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ-–the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death.​

And this is why we are baptized into His name, into His death. As you said yourself: it is Christ who saves you, not the baptism.

Romans 6:3
Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?​

Christ is essential for salvation, and we respond to that realization by being baptized. But as we see by His words to the criminal on the cross, He does not need our baptism to save us. It's while we are alive that we make our choices.

I will answer your question about what other Christian’s lack. They lack the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That's convenient, since you define the "fulness of the gospel" as the LDS church. What you really seem to be saying is that while we have the words of Christ, we lack the Mormon's enlightened understanding.

They lack a full understanding of who God is and what his plan is for us.

Exactly what does not acknowledging that God is "a man like us" keep us from understanding, and how can knowledge of God's plan be kept from us? Does the Mormon church have it copyrighted?

They lack the authority to perform ordinances essential for salvation.

Only God can save us. Humanity never had "the authority to perform ... salvation", or we would have had no need for a Christ, and only Christ has that authority. It is Christ's atonement, Christ's baptism and body, and Christ's priesthood.

They lack a living prophet who can let them know the will of God.

God's will has been known since Adam: to love and honour Him by obeying His law, loving each other. And whatever the law was lacking, Christ came to fulfil. It is the Spirit He gave us that allows us to know how God's will applies to our lives every day, and this is also doesn't belong to the Mormon church or any prophet:

Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is — his good, pleasing and perfect will.​

The best a prophet can do is remind us of God's will, and of the consequences of disobeying it.

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.​

They only have the Bible to guide them which can be interpreted several ways, and lack an anchor like a prophet who can give the proper interpretation of scripture. The Bible contains only a trifle of God's words. It is incomplete. It has been tampered with by deceiving men and even righteous men with good intentions. They lack other scriptures that God has preserved and given to men such as the Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price.

You call the prophet an "anchor"? You will rely on a mere man, not in the sensible way the Hebrews did it, where a prophet could be falsified and his message rejected, but where his words are to be taken at face value. Yes, face value, because if you believed they should be rejected based on the words of earlier prophets, you would have rejected any notion of there being more than one God, and polygamy (even if only based on Jacob 1:15 or 2:24). It is not faith to believe anyone who professes to be a prophet, because faith would have been that God's words did not fail, even if the men to whom it was entrusted might fail. "In the beginning was the Word..." and it is this Word we ultimately listen to, not revelation upon revelation. You effectively put a man in Christ's place as mediator.

Besides, you contradict Jesus, who said He would give believers the Spirit of Truth to hold them to the truth and guide them in it:

John 15:26-27 “When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.​

You still have to show when and where the scriptures have been tampered with without the knowledge of any apostle, or where it has been translated incorrectly. And why the Book of Mormon, despite claiming to contain the corrected Bible, still contains the difficulties Mormons complain about, why 4000 changes had to be made since the original 1830 edition, and why changes had been made to Doctrine and Covenants since its first publication.

These books and other Revelations give us the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is his church. The only Church established by Christ to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man.

If they were ever "full" according to you, then why the need for more prophets? If the Book of Mormon was ever full, why add the Doctrine and Covenants? If those two were ever full, why add the Pearl of Great Price?
They even disagree on some subjects:

D&C 130:3 “The idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.”
Alma 34:36 “And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell.”​

Last but not least, if we are saved by Christ, as you said -- even if we're not also exalted -- don't we gain "immortality and the eternal life of man"? What does this leave for the Mormon church to do except trying to make us want to become exalted? They cannot condemn us, not even to a "lesser" kingdom.

Romans 8:1-2
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.​

We do not know much about Outer Darkness. We know it is not like the common description of Hell. No fire and brimstone.

MOSIAH 3:27
And their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever. Thus hath the Lord commanded me. Amen.​

 

[Brutus1964]

Jenyar

I have a question. What connection if any do you have with the LDS church. Were you once a member or are you just well versed in anti-Mormon literature?

If they were ever "full" according to you, then why the need for more prophets? If the Book of Mormon was ever full, why add the Doctrine and Covenants? If those two were ever full, why add the Pearl of Great Price?
They even disagree on some subjects:
D&C 130:3 “The idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.”
Alma 34:36 “And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell.”

These two versus do not contradict unless you believe that God and Christ literally live in Men's hearts. "Dwell in men's hearts" is figurative not literal. It's just like saying I dwell in my wife's heart, and she dwells in mine. That statement is true even though I do not literally live in my wife's heart.

Last but not least, if we are saved by Christ, as you said -- even if we're not also exalted -- don't we gain "immortality and the eternal life of man"? What does this leave for the Mormon Church to do except trying to make us want to become exalted? They cannot condemn us, not even to a "lesser" kingdom.
Romans 8:1-2
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

We believe that true salvation and true eternal life is to be with God the Father forever. This can only be obtained if we are exalted. Yes the Terrestrial and Tellestial Kingdoms you will have immortality and eternal life but not at its full extent. You will not be with your wife and family forever. You will not be able to have spirit children. You will be damned from eternal progression. You will only be able to progress so far. The only way to inherit all that God has and be joined heirs with Christ is to be exalted.

Also I say again that it is not our works that exalts us. We do not exalt ourselves. We are 100% at the mercy of Christ to do that for us. Even if we do everything expected of us to be exalted it is not good enough. There is still a huge gulf between us and God the Father that only Christ can bridge for us. So your notion that Mormons believe we save ourselves and Christ's atonement is only a part is a distortion of LDS doctrine. We are saved by Grace, We are exalted by grace, but there are things expected of us in return to receive His grace.

 

[Athelwulf]

Brutus, how is the following snippet interpreted by the Mormon faith?

Genesis 38
<Sup>8</Sup>And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
<Sup>9</Sup>And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
<Sup>10</Sup>And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

I've heard from someone that Mormons believe this passage says that masturbation is a sin. I would like to know if this is true.

I haven't read the entire thread, so if this has already been brought up, I'm sorry.

91 posts to go!

 

[Brutus1964]

Athelwulf

The LDS Church teaches that all sex outside of marriage is a sin in the sight of the Lord. This includes masturbation. It is a weakness that can and should be overcome. It is not considered as serious as actual sex. If you confess to your bishop about it you will not be subject to any church disciplinary action, but it certainly is discouraged.

 

[Athelwulf]

Danke, vielen Dank for the confirmation, Brutus.

89 posts to go!

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Brutus1964: The LDS Church teaches that all sex outside of marriage is a sin in the sight of the Lord. This includes masturbation. It is a weakness that can and should be overcome. It is not considered as serious as actual sex. If you confess to your bishop about it you will not be subject to any church disciplinary action, but it certainly is discouraged.
*************
M*W: Since there are a lot of guys on this forum, I need to comment on masturbation. From a health perspective, urologists believe your prostate health depends in part on fruitful sexual activity, more specifically, ejaculation of at least three times per week to ensure a healthy prostate. How this occurs is not important as far as your prostate health goes. For married men, this may be an issue to discuss with your wives. For unmarried men, you will have to use your own judgment about your sexual behavior. However you may choose to accomplish the 3 x per week ejaculation requirement for a healthy prostate, and that is nobody's business except your own.

 

[Jenyar]

Jenyar

I have a question. What connection if any do you have with the LDS church. Were you once a member or are you just well versed in anti-Mormon literature?

I haven't had much contact with Mormonism until now, and this is the first time I've debated Mormon doctrine with a Mormon. I'm not well-versed in anti-Mormon literature at all, but I'm reasonably well-versed in the Bible's teachings, and that seems to amount to almost the same thing when compared with Mormon literature. But since I've realized that even literature written by Mormon authorities aren't often considered authoritive on Mormonism, and that fixed doctrine seems to be a "moving target" as some have described it (as if the truth about God could be so relative), I've started to consult some ex-Mormon websites for inside information, such at this one. It has interesting quotes like this excerpt from President Hinckley’s interview with Time Magazine:

Q: Just another related question that comes up is the statements in the King Follet discourse by the Prophet.
A: Yeah
Q: ... about that, God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?

A: I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it.​

These kinds of statements usually inspire most of my questions, but I don't expect you to answer things I don't understand myself, so I make an effort to read up on them.

These two versus do not contradict unless you believe that God and Christ literally live in Men's hearts. "Dwell in men's hearts" is figurative not literal. It's just like saying I dwell in my wife's heart, and she dwells in mine. That statement is true even though I do not literally live in my wife's heart.

Then the quote from D&C says that the figurative understanding that "the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart" is an old sectarian notion, since that is how it has always been understood by Christians. Note, that non-Mormons have less problem with it, since we believe that God really is Spirit, which Mormon leaders have "reinterpreted" or even dismissed as nonsense. Statements like the one in D&C don't come from nowhere, they follow from such reinterpretations. I would have no problem with reconceptualizing something, unless it flatly contradicts established truths, like in this case. It just makes my argument more compelling if they happen to contradict Mormon scriptures as well.

We believe that true salvation and true eternal life is to be with God the Father forever. This can only be obtained if we are exalted. Yes the Terrestrial and Tellestial Kingdoms you will have immortality and eternal life but not at its full extent. You will not be with your wife and family forever. You will not be able to have spirit children. You will be damned from eternal progression. You will only be able to progress so far. The only way to inherit all that God has and be joined heirs with Christ is to be exalted.

My family are those who have been adopted as God's children. I can think of no higher relationship. And also cannot imagine an eternal life that is anything "less" than eternal. Unless you mean "quality of life", in which case you should have been a Hindu. There you can have eternal progression until you attain enlightenment, moksha, or "exaltation" if you still want to call it that.

Romans 8:16-18 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs — heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.​

And God has done no less than exalt us by his grace (sharing Christ's glory), and it is because it has been grace, not works, that we are eternally grateful...

Colossians 1:12-13
...giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves.​

If we are already brought into Christ's kingdom, I cannot imagine why we would want to "progress" past that. When a son inherits, he inherits everything he was promised, not just a part of it; he has not earned any of it.

Galatians 3:28-29
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.​

As you can see, all further distinctions are meaningless to me. If God wants to exalt me any more than that, I'm sure his grace is sufficient. I am obedient to the life I have in Christ by living within that love. I can do no more than God has done for me, and nothing can separate me from the love of God that is in Christ.

Also I say again that it is not our works that exalts us. We do not exalt ourselves. We are 100% at the mercy of Christ to do that for us. Even if we do everything expected of us to be exalted it is not good enough. There is still a huge gulf between us and God the Father that only Christ can bridge for us. So your notion that Mormons believe we save ourselves and Christ's atonement is only a part is a distortion of LDS doctrine.

And Christ has bridged it. That gulf was death -- physical and spiritual death. As written in 1 Corinthians 15:26: "The last enemy to be destroyed is death." After what Christ has done, and while living in Christ, there is nothing left to be done. All dues have been payed by Him, all requirements are met in Him. That is grace and mercy. Anything more is to make Him less, it is false humility; but "He must become greater; I must become less" (John 3:30).

We are saved by Grace, We are exalted by grace, but there are things expected of us in return to receive His grace.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.​

You have just undone everything you said in your last paragraph. "100% at the mercy of Christ" leaves no room for anything we can do "to receive His grace". If we can earn grace, it is not grace anymore. If we have to do something to get it, it has not been given, but earned. Work is nothing other than "doing something that is required of you". On the other hand, having already received everything we need, nothing can keep us from loving as God really requires.

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.​

What we do in response to having received grace is love. That is how you truly thank God. Not as a slave doing his duty, but as a son inheriting a will.

Galatians 4:4-7
But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, Abba, Father. So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.​

Whatever we do, whatever work or good thing, we do by faith, as sons. If we don't do them, we prove that we don't know God and have taken our inheritance to squander away at our own discretion; "If anyone says, I love God, yet hates his brother, he is a liar," and "Whoever loves God must also love his brother" (1 John 4). If we don't love, we prove that we have not understood God's grace.

I say again: to add anything after grace, to want more than you have been given by doing anything for "exaltation" or "glory" after having admitted that we cannot deserve it and it must be a gift, shows false humility.

 

[Brutus1964]

Medicine Women

I will surely let my wife know about that. My very health may depend on it.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Randalfo

can't spell? cut & paste then, I'm gonna have to get a harder pen-name, like Bonampak1945, so that you have to cut & paste, ;-p

When I was in Cancun we took a Book of Mormon tour through Chichen Itza.

that's an oxymoron, you have a better chance of finding the boM people in Chicken pItza, since they are a made-up people, form a made-up place, by a maker of make-believe, (that would be JS)

hey, didn't you say later that the LSD church didn't say that Mexicans were BoM people? so why do its adherents?

It was very interesting and the tour guide gave some very compelling arguments about how the Mayans could have been descendents from the Book of Mormon people.

I suppose they were trained archaeologists, right? did they pull out bronze or gold plates for sacrifice, like that show on Ethiopia on the History channel did? did they say which Jewish customs the Mayans had that they still followed the Levitical Law & had the cohanen DNA markers like the Lembi people of Africa?
Check this: www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/

They may have been who knows. Many LDS people believe this to be the case. I think there could be some truth to it.

hmmm, no way, prove it. start a DNA database, compare with the cohanen or diaspora jews, should be a match if you're right, or you'll have to spread more goobly-goo, if you're wrong, or redirect & go on the offensive, that works when you get caught short

However the Church itself makes no claims of any particular indigenous people as being the direct descendents of laminates, or BoM peoples.

because they can't, the DNA, linguistics, flora & fauna would prove them big time liars, ASAP

You might read FARM and FAIR discussing the possibilities but they do not speak for the church.

why would I waste my time on propaganda? let them first bring out their papers on major campus symposiums, like UCLA or U of U, or museums like SI or the Field Museum, lets see the pseudo-scholars from FAIR or FARM make it out alive, after being torn & eaten by real scholars, & not hide behind BYU or other mormon front-orgs, like FAIR, FARM, etc...

 

[Brutus1964]

Randolfo

The website you gave me has a passage that supports the idea of a Native American and Israelite connection.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/losttribes2.html

In the early 16th century, Bartholome de Las Casas became the champion of the Native American Indians, devoting his lifetime to improving the conditions—in the West Indies, Peru and Guatemala. Las Casas wrote: "These Indians can bring near the redemption. If we treat them humanely in this world and convert them to Christianity, we are preparing for the redemption of the Western world in the messianic era. Their conversion is apt indeed, as I am convinced the Indians originate in Ancient Israel. Indeed, I can bring proofs from the Bible that they are of the Lost Tribes."

Why would Bartholeme de Las Casas have the impression there was a connection unless he found some tribes in Amerca practicing some Jewish traditions. It seems what you have given me is good evidence that there is in fact a connection.

Also many Book of Mormon critics fail to mention that Lehi and Nephi where not from the tribe of Judah. They were not ethnic Jews. They came from the tribe of Joseph so this is one explanation why no Native Americans have been shown to have ethnic Jewish DNA. The article you gave me suggests that many cultures including Chinese and Japanese may have connection to the lost 10 tribes as well.


Also the tour guide that gave us the Book of Mormon tour was Dr. Jose Davila who is a well known LDS Archeologist. He is of Mayan decent and specializes in Book of Mormon artifacts. He believes the Mayans are in fact the descendents of the BofM peoples.

 

[Athelwulf]

Brutus, I've been thinking about yer response to my question about masturbation.

The LDS Church teaches that all sex outside of marriage is a sin in the sight of the Lord. This includes masturbation.

What reasons does the LDS Church give to include masturbation as a type of sexual intercourse?

It is a weakness that can and should be overcome. It is not considered as serious as actual sex.

Wait . . . So does the LDS Church not consider masturbation actual sex?

Further questions:

What is the sinful aspect of masturbation according to the LDS Church? Is it the fact that there is manual stimulation of an area on the body that's believed to be dirty? Or is it the assumption that semen that could otherwise fertilize an egg is being wasted? Or is it something else entirely?

Is female masturbation equally discouraged?

Thank you for answering my questions. This was a good idea, starting this thread.

76 posts to go!

 

[Brutus1964]

Athulwulf

We are not like Catholics where "every sperm is sacred". Your body naturally removes sperm anyway even without your help. We view masturbation the same way we think of pornography. It is simply selfish gratification. It also can lead to actual intercourse just like petting. Sex is not dirty, rather it is a sacred act ordained of God between a husband and wife to bring his spirit children to Earth. Masturbation is an abuse of this sacred act. We should try to free our minds of impure thoughts. You can't do that while you are pleasuring yourself.

 

[okinrus]

We are not like Catholics where "every sperm is sacred".

Catholics don't believe "every sperm is sacred." Do you mean contraception?

 

[water]

“ Q: Please tell me: Why would I want to be exalted? ”
A: Do you want everything that God has now. Do you want to fulfill your very purpose of being? Do you want to spend eternity knowing you could have lived with God forever and partaken in all his blessings? There will be a time that you will remember your pre-Earth life and you will have a full understanding what it was all about. You will know what your true destiny was and that you fell short.

I do not know what God has now.
So how could I know whether I want what He has?

A: We all have a potential to be Gods but only some of us are up to it.

Who is up to it?

We are baptized because it is an act that shows we are accepting Christ. The act in itself does not save us. There is nothing magical about the water in itself that washes away our sins. It is symbolism that Christ gives us to remind us of him. Baptism is about going into the water symbolizing dying and going into the grave then coming up out of the water which symbolizes our resurrection and being reborn. The water itself symbolizes being cleansed of your sins. Just like the sacrament symbolizes the body and blood of Jesus Christ. The ordinances that must be performed for exaltation all lead to Jesus Christ. It is Him that saves us. Not the symbols. It is the things that the symbols represent that are important.

and:

A: Because baptism and certain ordinances are essential for salvation. All must receive them or they cannot enter God's Kingdom. This includes any of the three Kingdoms.

and:

Also I say again that it is not our works that exalts us. We do not exalt ourselves. We are 100% at the mercy of Christ to do that for us. Even if we do everything expected of us to be exalted it is not good enough.

How is that now? Even if I do get baptized in your church and live by its precepts, this does not mean that I will be exalted?

Those who, for whatever reason, haven't heard of the Gospel -- *God* knows that, and *God* will not and does not put it against them. Why should He?! God knows it is not their fault that they haven't heard the Gospel, and God knows that they haven't rejected it by their own fault -- so how could God find blame with them?"

Why must you enter, LDS? I know you say you were commanded to.

But I want to know why you think that my explanation is insufficient.

Water

God does not hold it against them. That is why he has prepared a way for them to recieve all ordinences essential for salvation. When they accept the gospel in the spirit world then everything will have been done for them. No one will be exempted.

If God doesn't hold it against them, the God doesn't hold it against them. There is nothing further needed to be said.

Instead, you are virtually telling me that, for example, my late grandma NEEDS you to be baptized for her.
Do you think you would do a good work then?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints *IS* the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is his church. He established his church in modern times through his prophet Joseph Smith. Gordon B. Hinkley is his prophet today. To say you do not need the church is to say you do not need Jesus Christ. It is His church. It is the same church that Jesus Christ established when he was here on Earth. The LDS Church is the modern version of it. That is why we call ourselves Latter-day Saints.

I might need Christ, I might want Christ. But how does this automatically mean that I also need LDS?

They lack the authority to perform ordinances essential for salvation.

I have been to several baptisms. And those "elders", those BOYS, late teenagers -- am I really to think that they have the "authority to perform ordinances essential for salvation"?

I should have myself baptized by a boy who called me on the phone, talked to me about Rage Against The Machine's or Metallica's music, a boy who called me, munching on something and had me guess what he was eating? A boy catching the city bus, running back and sticking out his tongue and making stupid faces at those who missed the bus?

Or should I trust a "proper elder" of 65 or more, a complete stranger who doesn't speak one word of my language?

You see, the official representatives of your church are not trustworthy.

These books and other Revelations give us the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is his church. The only Church established by Christ to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man.

Why would I want eternal life?

We believe that true salvation and true eternal life is to be with God the Father forever. This can only be obtained if we are exalted. Yes the Terrestrial and Tellestial Kingdoms you will have immortality and eternal life but not at its full extent. You will not be with your wife and family forever. You will not be able to have spirit children. You will be damned from eternal progression. You will only be able to progress so far. The only way to inherit all that God has and be joined heirs with Christ is to be exalted.

If a widower marries a widow -- whom will they be with in heaven?

Will the widower be with his first wife?
Will the widow be with her first husband?

If yes, ho will the second wife and the second husband be with?

If a widower marries a previously unmarried woman -- whom will he be with in heaven? The first wife or the second wife? If with the first wife -- will the second one be alone then?


* * *

Medicine Women

I will surely let my wife know about that. My very health may depend on it.

This isn't funny at all.
Tell us what is your Chruch's official position on contraceptives. Which contraceptives specifically are allowed/encouraged/demanded?


* * *

Also, explain why only some LDS members are allowed to visit LDS temples. Not every Mormon is allowed to go to a Mormon temple. Why not?