Mormon Teachings

[Medicine*Woman]

Jenyar: What exactly is it that Christians got wrong?
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M*W: If god could appear to Moses, then god could appear to Joseph Smith. If Jesus appeared to Paul, then Jesus could appear to Joseph Smith.

Your point?
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Jenyar: You say all those fanciful Mormon doctrines and complexities are not necessary for salvation, that it's the "simple things" that count. Then all of them must come down to this: Joseph Smith restored "something" that was lost -- something so essential, and so utterly lost, that nobody outside Joseph Smith's church have any hope. To phrase it differently: what specifically do Christians lack that the LDS have?
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M*W: If god restored the tablets that Moses broke, then god could have easily restored the plates that Joseph Smith found. Your god is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, so why do you assume your god couldn't possibly be the god of Joseph Smith?
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Jenyar: Profession does not make Christianity "valid" (Matt. 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven...").
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M*W: If you profess your sect of christianity to be valid, then Joseph Smith and Brutus can profess their sect of christianity to be valid.
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Jenyar: Christ is the final priest conferring the new priesthood to all who serve God through Him.
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M*W: If Christ is god the final priest, which you claim him to be, then he can confer a priesthood or apostleship upon you through your church just as easily as he could confer a priesthood or apostleship upon Joseph Smith and Brutus who also serve god.
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Jenyar: Revelation 1:5-7 ...and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father -- to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
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M*W: We're all "firstborn from the dead!" We come into being from nothingness. We have all been freed from "our sins" (the nothingness from whence we came) and with our own blood, we are freed from the depths of darkness. If god through JC made you become a "priest to serve your God and Father," then your "God and Father" has also made Joseph Smith and Brutus "priests to serve your God and Father," in their own expression.
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Jenyar: 1 Peter 2:9-10 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
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M*W: If Peter was "chosen," and you were "chosen," then Joseph Smith was "chosen" as was "Brutus." They are equally a "holy nation, a people belonging to God, who declare the praises of him who called all of you out of darkness into his wonderful light."
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Jenyar: Who are the "other churches"? No reformed church ordains 'priests'. I think this is a confusion of terms again. Maybe okinrus could better inform you about the role of priesthood in Catholic church. A traditional priest is a mediator between God and men, a representative of God. By declaring us children through Christ, God made us all his representatives, able to approach Him directly.
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M*W: Jenyar, you are so nit picky that you try to addle everyone's understanding of certain words. In your above post, you readily admitted that, If god through JC made you become a "priest to serve your God and Father," why would you quibble about semantics with something so moot? I don't believe in god, but if there were a god, you disect him up into little pieces and compartmentalize them into the little drawers in the inner dark recesses of your deluded mind.
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Jenyar: It seems the Mormon church have reinstated the former priesthoods (which were declared "weak and useless" in Hebrews 7:18), in effect trying to demote Christ from His eternal office -- "the one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life" (v.16).
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M*W: You contradict yourself in every word you write. You ARE the author of confusion! You're no better than your dreaded adversary Satan.
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Jenyar: For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect for ever.
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M*W: If you are above the law, then Joseph Smith and Brutus are above that same law. Same goes for the "oath."

You, on the other hand, are a small-minded, sniveling, lice picking hair splitter who is so arrogant that you could not possibly be a man of the "oath" of which you speak!

If there is a god, then he has to be the same unbiased god for everyone, and it is NOT for you to judge anyone that the god they believe in is something different and evil. You are the only evil one in this equation.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Jenyar: Unlike both Roman Catholics and the Continental Reformers, Anglicanism has avoided excessively defining the presbyterate or priesthood. (They use priest and presbyter (or "elder") interchangeably.)
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M*W: WTF does it matter what they are called? They are ONLY men! WTF importance does a title have? You should be wearing a scarlet "A" for "Arrogant."

 

[Brutus1964]

In the Old Testament God gave his chosen people the lesser priesthood. God did give Moses the fullness of the Gospel but the children of Israel showed they were not ready for it. So instead he gave them the laws of Moses. He gave them the lesser priesthood which gave them the authority to officiate in the ordinances and rituals that are enumerated in the Old Testament. When Christ came he established his church and gave his apostles the higher priesthood. This priesthood gave them the power and authority to heal, cast out demons, gift of tongues, and all the other gifts of the spirit. The higher priesthood was on the Earth until the apostles and early Saints were killed. When the Roman Empire adopted Christianity as its official religion they changed many of the plain and simple truths of the gospel and corrupted it. Again man proved they were not yet ready for the fullness of the gospel. The true church and priesthood was removed from the earth for a time until it was restored again through Joseph Smith the prophet.


Jenyar

I don't see where the scriptures you gave says that Christ abolished the priesthood?

Also Christ did establish a church. He commanded his apostles to preach the gospel to every creature. In the New Testiment an actual church was established not just a loose group of believers.

If it only requires a belief in Christ to be saved then why are Mormons not saved in your view? Or why are we not Christians when we believe in Christ and our name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

If the true church was never taken from the Earth then why are you not catholic?

 

[Jenyar]

In the Old Testament God gave his chosen people the lesser priesthood. God did give Moses the fullness of the Gospel but the children of Israel showed they were not ready for it. So instead he gave them the laws of Moses. He gave them the lesser priesthood which gave them the authority to officiate in the ordinances and rituals that are enumerated in the Old Testament.

I assume you mean the Levitical priesthood, of whom Aaron was the head (Numbers 18:1). I'm with you.

When Christ came he established his church and gave his apostles the higher priesthood. This priesthood gave them the power and authority to heal, cast out demons, gift of tongues, and all the other gifts of the spirit. The higher priesthood was on the Earth until the apostles and early Saints were killed.

I gather this is called the "Melchizedek" priesthood. Please show me where this has happened, since it is a historical claim. Demons were driven out by Jesus' name (Mark 16:17), even by those who weren't apostles (Mark 9:38) -- in other words, "by the Spirit of God" (Matthew 12:28). All the other gifts are similarly "gifts of the Spirit", available to all who believe in Him (1 Corinthians 12). There is no mention of any priesthood required, in fact, when the crowd began speaking in tongues, Peter and the "official" believers were astonished, because they were gentiles (Acts 10:45-47).

Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter began to speak: I now realise how true it is that God does not show favouritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.​

When the Roman Empire adopted Christianity as its official religion they changed many of the plain and simple truths of the gospel and corrupted it. Again man proved they were not yet ready for the fullness of the gospel. The true church and priesthood was removed from the earth for a time until it was restored again through Joseph Smith the prophet.

Again, I ask you: what has been corrupted? What other gospel are you teaching that the one all Christians have accepted?

1 Cor. 15:2-5
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.​

I refer you to Galatians 1:8:

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"​

Jenyar

I don't see where the scriptures you gave says that Christ abolished the priesthood?

It was not abolished; it ran out of something to do, and was therefore "set aside" (Heb. 7:18). In the first place, there was no earthly temple left, only Christ (John 2:21), whom God also appointed as high priest to all nations (Hebrews 5:9-10) in the order of Melchizedek (Ps. 110:4).

Hebrews 7:11
If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come — one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?​

Why indeed? It could not accomplish its goal, having to "offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people." But when Christ was appointed, He could fulfil that function completely and finally.

Hebrews 7:24-27 ...because Jesus lives for ever, he has a permanent* priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
Such a high priest meets our need — one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. ... He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.​

* the word used here is aparabatos: "unchangeable and therefore not liable to pass to a successor".

What the Mormon church would have us believe is that
1) Christ passed on his eternal priesthood, and a function only He could perform -- after all, no-one else can be "king of righteousness" or "king of peace" (v.2), no-one else is "without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life" (v.3) ---
2) to Peter (who received a mandate against which the gates of Hell could not prevail), James and John, who never left His side;
3) That the gates of Hell then prevailed against the church Christ established, in spite of giving them the Spirit, in spite of allegedly having passed on an eternal priesthood onto them to be lost;
4) That the same Peter, James and John who blessed Paul's ministry to the gentiles (Galatians 2:9), and whose epistles we still read
5) Failed (in ways you still have to explain)
6) ...and have now tried again with a church that seems for all practical intents and purposes no different than Medieval Catholicism or early Pharisaism: authoritarian, performance-driven, inaccesible, and extremely "religious" -- only with different gods; God in the image of mortal man, not the other way around, as it used to be; procreating, not creating.

 

[Jenyar]

Also Christ did establish a church. He commanded his apostles to preach the gospel to every creature. In the New Testiment an actual church was established not just a loose group of believers.

I did not deny this, but it was a church without walls. It was the unity of believers, all represented in Christ's own body.

If it only requires a belief in Christ to be saved then why are Mormons not saved in your view? Or why are we not Christians when we believe in Christ and our name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Mormons can be saved as much as anybody who believes and accepts what God has done can. What worries me is that you believe a different gospel (by your own admission, since if you believed the same gospel, those outside the church of Mormon would not have been called "apostates"). You say you know Christ, but will He know you? He believed there was only one God (Mark 12:29), and "He did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (Philippians 2:6). Will He recognize your religion and your God, or will they be foreign and new to Him?

Many Mormons could be saved through their faith in Christ, but it will not because because of Joseph Smith, it will be in spite of him.

If the true church was never taken from the Earth then why are you not catholic?

Catholic simply means "general" or "universal", from the Greek katholikos (καθολικος ). I am as "Catholic" as Peter, the disciples and all other believers are in Christ. Christ is the church I attend, and the only priest who intercedes for me. As far as any church adheres to that gospel and that faith -- as far as it is a member of Christ -- I am a member of it.

Luther was so afraid of the Catholic church of his time that he also became deathly afraid of God. Being so afraid of judgment, he asked Wie bekomme ich einen gnädigen Gott? ("How can I find a gracious God?"), and he found the answer not in the church of his day, but in the words of Christ, the word of God. Luther was excommunicated and given the death penalty for apostasy, but he gave momentum to the counter-reformation. The Catholic church lost a lot of the credibility and power it once held, but they didn't lose the gospel. We can fall over in God's hand, but we cannot fall out.

 

[water]

Jenyar: Unlike both Roman Catholics and the Continental Reformers, Anglicanism has avoided excessively defining the presbyterate or priesthood. (They use priest and presbyter (or "elder") interchangeably.)
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M*W: WTF does it matter what they are called? They are ONLY men! WTF importance does a title have? You should be wearing a scarlet "A" for "Arrogant."

You should have been with me at a Mormon baptism!
It was in the summer, in a pool. And those "elders" -- boys of 18-22 years were having fun, dipping their heads into the pool, sprinkling me with the holy water, saying I would be baptized, if they were Catholic!
One said, "Imagine, I have the same authority as a Catholic priest!"

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Randolfo

You will not find in any official Mormon documents or any pronouncements that state that the Mayans or any known indigenous people living today are the direct lineage to the Book of Mormon people. The official church position is that we do not know and it may or may not ever be revealed in this life. There have been many cultures that have come and gone without our knowledge. It is possible that the Book of Mormon peoples both Nephites and Lamanites were completely destroyed and all genetic markings went with them. It is possible that some did survive and there may be some remnant.

you don't read FAIR or see what mormons are saying in Mexico, etc? don't act naive

So you should not be offended by the church trying to change your peoples culture or whatever. However I do not know why you would be offended by the prospect of Christ himself personally visiting them after his resurrection?

ok, so don't be offended when I try to crash your house of cards down, of course it would be easier if you hadn't glued them with superglue, you cheater!

This is a much better legacy for the Mayan people than the modern view of them as being heathens engaging in human sacrifice and canabalism isn't it?

I'd rather have the truth man, what kind of legacy is a lie? truth is better, even if its the unvarnished variety. you better look into your defense mechanisms, you may be rationalizing the BoM's glaring holes to hang on for dear life?

 

[Brutus1964]

Randalfo

When I was in Cancun we took a Book of Mormon tour through Chichen Itza. It was very interesting and the tour guide gave some very compelling arguments about how the Mayans could have been descendents from the Book of Mormon people. They may have been who knows. Many LDS people believe this to be the case. I think there could be some truth to it. However the Church itself makes no claims of any particular indigenous people as being the direct descendents of laminates, or BoM peoples. You might read FARM and FAIR discussing the possibilities but they do not speak for the church.

 

[okinrus]

In the Old Testament God gave his chosen people the lesser priesthood. God did give Moses the fullness of the Gospel but the children of Israel showed they were not ready for it.

By children of Israel, do you mean the Jewish people? Doesn't God bringforth everything at its proper time? The seasons, the planets... Did God make a mistake, here?

The higher priesthood was on the Earth until the apostles and early Saints were killed.

Writings from these early saints show that they believed in either orthodox beliefs with minor influences of Greek Philosophy. Many of these early saints died for their beliefs. In other words, the persecution of early Christians didn't drastically stop after St. Peter's martyrdom or St. John's death, but continued on. How could they commit apostasy when they died for their wrong beliefs? The Romans weren't persecuting Christians because they worshiped many gods. They persecuted Christians because they didn't believe in the state gods.

 

[Brutus1964]

Okinrus

The early saints died for the true gospel. It was not until Rome adopted Christianity and recreated it to their liking that the true gospel was taken from the Earth.

We must give the Catholic Church a lot of credit though. They faithfully and the best of their ability past down the scriptures to us. They also kept Christianity itself alive during the dark ages. They even beat back Islamic aggression during the Crusades.

When we say the LDS church is Christ’s one true church on Earth. It is not to say that all other churches are evil and against God. They all have there own measure of truth and goodness. They bring people to God and Christ. However The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the fullness of the gospel and the true Priesthood that gives man the authority to act in God's name.

 

[Jenyar]

When we say the LDS church is Christ’s one true church on Earth. It is not to say that all other churches are evil and against God. They all have there own measure of truth and goodness. They bring people to God and Christ. However The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the fullness of the gospel and the true Priesthood that gives man the authority to act in God's name.

Brutus, notwithstanding that your opinion contradicts Mormon teaching, namely:

"no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289).

"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73);
"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171);
"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199);
"And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24);
"Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230)

But Joseph Smith said it best:
[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).​

You also completely ignore everything I said and asked until now: In what way is the gospel restored by the Mormon church, and how did Joseph Smith gain authority which could only be had if Christ were dead or absent?

 

[Brutus1964]

Jenyar

I think we need to make clear what our definition of "saved" is. Anyone who achieves *any* of the Kingdoms of Glory is saved. What we are talking about here is becoming exalted which is quite different that just being saved. To be saved you do not have to be LDS. You simply must accept Christ either in this life or the next. However to become exalted into Godhood you must be baptized into Christ's true church which is the LDS church, and accept the church's teachings, and follow the living prophet. You must receive the priesthood of God if you are a man and be sealed for time and eternity in the Temple of the Lord. You must receive your Temple endowments. You must repent of your sins and endure to the end. These things can only be received by Jesus Christ's true church on the Earth. You can either receive it here or if not given a proper chance your work will be done by proxy when you are dead. Up in the spirit world you can either except it or reject it. That is why we are so big on genealogy and Temple work. We are saving our dead.

Where did we get the authority to do this? By God and Jesus Christ themselves. I would say that is the best authority you can get. Joseph Smith is not the one who saves or exalts. It is Jesus Christ alone and no other. However to be exalted you must accept Christ’s true church, which is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You cannot accept the Church without also accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet. That is what they were meaning in those statements you showed me.


Concerning baptism and work for the dead. No other Christian church or any other church for that matter can explain how people can be saved who have never heard or never had the chance accept the gospel. Are they all consigned to Hell because of their situation at birth? Does God favor some and curse others simply because of where they happen to live, or the time that they lived? Or are they given a free pass not offered to everyone?

The answer is No. God neither condemns nor saves anyone in ignorance. God will give everyone ample opportunity to accept or reject him. No one will be left behind. The work will be done for every soul who ever lived and when that work is done for them they will have their free agency to accept the work that was done in there behalf or not.

 

[Jenyar]

If everyone is saved then what does condemnation mean? What is condemned?

 

[Brutus1964]

Jenyar.

Well even though Tellestial and Terrestrial are still Kingdoms of Glory they are still a condemnation since you will forever be cut off from the Presents of God the Father. At that time you will remember your pre-Earth life. Knowing full well what you did and that you screwed up. That is the true Hell. At least you will still be comforted by Jesus Christ in the Terrestrial and the Holy Ghost in the Tellestial so you will not be completely cut off the Godhead. True condemnation is outer Darkness. That is where Satan and his followers along with all those who deny Christ even after they have been given a full knowledge of him. They are sons of perdition and have no glory. They will be lost souls forever having absolutely no connection with the Godhead or the saved.

 

[duendy]

why dont you meantion 'DAUGHTERS' or perdition'

andddd, can you describe what this 'outer darkness' would be like?

would there be a sun, or just a moon? would it be like the Christian hell which i believe is likened to a lake of fire?

i am just wanting to know what are your belief's details about the outer darkeness you warn us sinners about. after all, if i am going on a holiday, i want to know what to expect.
so what is this 'outer darkness'? try and use your literary skills to the fore

 

[Jenyar]

Where does any pre-Mormon scripture indicate more than one kingdom of God (or any "Kingdom of Glory")? There can only be one kingdom under one king. Something that was never there cannot be lost. You have still failed to show me what was "lost", and why we don't have it. No, we don't have exaltation by works, because Jesus never taught that. He taught "everyone who exalts himself will be humbled". Not even Jesus claimed to become God or a god -- He simply let it be shown.

Daniel 7:27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'​

How can a kingdom, or parts of a kingdom, be cut off from its King? Jesus himself said "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand". Why would Christ "save" people into condemnation, if "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1)?

And why would God have to save us from our sin on earth, if we could attain exaltation ourselves? Because according to you, being saved is just the first step of attaining exaltation. If we can take every other step by ourselves, by upholding religious laws, why not also the first step? The penalty for failing to uphold the law is complete failure, and the success of Christ to establish God's grace over the law was therefore complete success.

None of the things you mention were available at the time of Christ and the apostles, how are they suddenly necessary now? The eternal priesthood was, and still is available, in Christ alone; baptism was, and is still available, into Christ alone; repentance from sins was always available, made effective through Christ alone -- a church can only embody these things through sacraments, but it cannot replace Christ in presenting them!

 

[Brutus1964]

why dont you meantion 'DAUGHTERS' or perdition'

andddd, can you describe what this 'outer darkness' would be like?

would there be a sun, or just a moon? would it be like the Christian hell which i believe is likened to a lake of fire?

i am just wanting to know what are your belief's details about the outer darkeness you warn us sinners about. after all, if i am going on a holiday, i want to know what to expect.
so what is this 'outer darkness'? try and use your literary skills to the fore

Duendy

Yes there are Daughters of Perdition too. We do not know much about Outer Darkness. We know it is not like the common description of Hell. No fire and brimstone. My guess is that it is a place of total darkness. A place of absolutely no sensory perception except for you own existence. Cutoff from everyone including all the other's in your similar situation. To be in infinite darkness with no way of escape. It would be like not existing except you happen to be aware of it. No prophet has actually ever described outer darkness accept to say it is a place of no glory. So we really do not know much about it. We know that the Tellestial Kingdom even though it is the lowest level of Glory is still a absolutely astonishing marvelous place. Joseph Smith said that if you could see even the lowest Kingdom you would kill yourself to be there. It is more wondrous and glorious than any place on Earth. It is not an easy thing to get to Outer Darkness though. You have to obtain an absolute knowledge of God and Jesus Christ. You have to be in a position where faith is no longer an issue. You know first hand that God and Jesus Christ are real and who they are and then deny them anyway. This is the unpardonable sin. This is to sin against the Holy Ghost. To sin against the spirit of truth. Very few people who received bodies will end up in Outer Darkness. There will of course be some. The majority will be the spirits that rebelled against God and followed Satan in the pre-existence.

Jenyar

I don't see where you get the impression that Mormons believe it is ourselves that saves us instead of Christ. Without Christ it wouldn't matter what works we do. We do the works because Jesus Christ has commanded us to, not because we think that doing them we can save ourselves. We are baptized because it is an act that shows we are accepting Christ. The act in itself does not save us. There is nothing magical about the water in itself that washes away our sins. It is symbolism that Christ gives us to remind us of him. Baptism is about going into the water symbolizing dying and going into the grave then coming up out of the water which symbolizes our resurrection and being reborn. The water itself symbolizes being cleansed of your sins. Just like the sacrament symbolizes the body and blood of Jesus Christ. The ordinances that must be performed for exaltation all lead to Jesus Christ. It is Him that saves us. Not the symbols. It is the things that the symbols represent that are important.

 

[water]

I think we need to make clear what our definition of "saved" is. Anyone who achieves *any* of the Kingdoms of Glory is saved. What we are talking about here is becoming exalted which is quite different that just being saved. To be saved you do not have to be LDS. You simply must accept Christ either in this life or the next. However to become exalted into Godhood you must be baptized into Christ's true church which is the LDS church, and accept the church's teachings, and follow the living prophet.

Please tell me: Why would I want to be exalted?

Up in the spirit world you can either except it or reject it.

I don't mean to be nitpicky, but this is a gross misspelling, in this particular case.

We are saving our dead.

Why do you do that?

Concerning baptism and work for the dead. No other Christian church or any other church for that matter can explain how people can be saved who have never heard or never had the chance accept the gospel. Are they all consigned to Hell because of their situation at birth? Does God favor some and curse others simply because of where they happen to live, or the time that they lived? Or are they given a free pass not offered to everyone?

The answer is No. God neither condemns nor saves anyone in ignorance. God will give everyone ample opportunity to accept or reject him. No one will be left behind. The work will be done for every soul who ever lived and when that work is done for them they will have their free agency to accept the work that was done in there behalf or not.

I don't agree with that at all.

Those who, for whatever reason, haven't heard of the Gospel -- *God* knows that, and *God* will not and does not put it against them. Why should He?!
God knows it is not their fault that they haven't heard the Gospel, and God knows that they haven't rejected it by their own fault -- so how could God find blame with them?

But.

But it is the *people* (like you) who have a problem with those who haven't heard of the Gospel.

And so you have appointed yourselves to do something so that *your* idea of "God neither condemns nor saves anyone in ignorance. God will give everyone ample opportunity to accept or reject him." comes through and so that *your* understanding of "God neither condemns nor saves anyone in ignorance. God will give everyone ample opportunity to accept or reject him." will make sense to *you*.

You are actually assuming God's trickery, so that you can justify what you do for the dead.

Well even though Tellestial and Terrestrial are still Kingdoms of Glory they are still a condemnation since you will forever be cut off from the Presents of God the Father.

By "presents" -- what do you mean? 'Gifts'?

At that time you will remember your pre-Earth life. Knowing full well what you did and that you screwed up. That is the true Hell. At least you will still be comforted by Jesus Christ in the Terrestrial and the Holy Ghost in the Tellestial so you will not be completely cut off the Godhead. True condemnation is outer Darkness. That is where Satan and his followers along with all those who deny Christ even after they have been given a full knowledge of him.

What does it mean to be "given full knowledge of him"?
Do you think that *knowledge* can be *given*?

It is not an easy thing to get to Outer Darkness though. You have to obtain an absolute knowledge of God and Jesus Christ. You have to be in a position where faith is no longer an issue. You know first hand that God and Jesus Christ are real and who they are and then deny them anyway.

I don't think this is possible at all.

A human would have to be omnipotent if he would want to deny absolute knowledge.

Well, in a way this is in accord with what you are saying about a human's god-potential.

But then again, if you claim it is possible to "know first hand that God and Jesus Christ are real and who they are and then deny them anyway" then you are also saying that humans are gods or have god-potential. But then I do not see why there is to be a God, a Creator at all. We're all gods, all potentially equal. And we have our little god fights ...

I don't see where you get the impression that Mormons believe it is ourselves that saves us instead of Christ. Without Christ it wouldn't matter what works we do. We do the works because Jesus Christ has commanded us to, not because we think that doing them we can save ourselves.

No no no. Saying that you do "the works because Jesus Christ has commanded us to" is not enough.
You have to explain why Christ is so important. For your salvation. Alright. But why? Why do you want that sort of salvation? Because Joseph Smith said so?

 

[Brutus1964]

water

Sorry for the misspellings. I run my posts through a spell checker first but words like presence/presents and accept/except are spelled correctly even though they are not the correct words for the context they are being used. I need to be more carefull with proofreading my posts. Thanks for giving me the heads up.

 

[water]

Brutus,


I have a feeling that you once more won't address my questions.

If you think that I am merely being provocative or venting -- the at least be man enough to say so.

But give me and everyone else the credit that provocation and venting can be overcome.

Saying nothing is the worst you can do.