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US "economic collapse" = "Awww shucks, this week I can only afford to have four Russians washing my car instead of five!"

Besides, I don't get why the US has been supposedly facing imminent doomsday for the last 100 years when its economy is still growing, and there's plenty of room to cut wasteful spending or increase taxes to pay off debts. Yeah, I guess if every American just suddenly stops going to work tomorrow, there'd be an economic collapse and Russia wouldn't look as much like an angry midget.
I don't know who you are talking about with regard to predictions of economic collapse in the last 100 years, but when oil production peaks, we will start to be in trouble. Sooner if disruptions in supply occur as a result of war or unrest. Of course, the economy will also be in peak form just before end. Russia already experienced a collapse of the USSR, and they are far better prepared for such hardship.
 
I don't know who you are talking about with regard to economic collapse, but when oil production peaks, we will start to be in trouble.
Why? Our oil consumption has declined significantly since 2009. It is now starting to increase again, but most people don't expect it to grow much.
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“Over time we think that U.S. demand is going to be flat at best, or probably trending a bit down,” says Mark Schwartz, president of PIRA Energy group, a consulting firm.
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/world/rising-demand-oil-growth-easy-when-youve-been-pits
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Additionally, of course, we now have unconventional sources of oil coming on line; we are already pumping a million barrels a day of unconventional oil right here in the US, and that keeps increasing.
 
I don't know who you are talking about with regard to economic collapse, but when oil production peaks, we will start to be in trouble. Sooner if disruptions in supply occur as a result of war or unrest. Of course, the economy will also be in peak form just before end. Russia already experienced a collapse of the USSR, and they are far better prepared for such hardship.

I really don't think the question is who is CptBork talking to with regard to economic collapse. I think the real question is who are you talking to. You know, I am almost 60 years old. Back in high school some 40+ years ago, people were making the same dire predictions as those you have made. It hasn't happened yet. At some point people stop responding to the cry of wolf.

Further, the US will soon, within a few years (i.e. a decade or two) be energy independent. Next year the US is expected to surpass Saudi Arabia and become the largest oil producer in the world. Two the US imports most of its oil from Canada, and not the Middle East. Further the US is using less oil resources. Cars are becoming more energy efficient. Homes and appliances are becoming more energy efficient. And the US, like other advanced economies is moving to alternative energy. The US also has huge natural gas reserves that if developed could provide for all US energy needs for more than a century. So your assertion just doesn't make sense given the facts on hand.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...ependence-by-2035-on-shale-boom-iea-says.html

One more point, the US is much better prepared to handle an economic crisis of any kind. The US has a more stable governance, a history of democracy and a free press and it has strong institutions like the Federal Reserve and much less corruption in government. The US has a strong history of an independent civil service which has gone a long way towards minimizing government corruption. Further, perhaps you are too young to remember, but the US has previously suffered an oil cut off from the middle east. It was called the Arab Oil Embargo of 1973 and the years since has prepared for another Arab oil embargo. As a result the US has created a strategic oil reserve of nearly a billion barrels of oil that can be easily tapped in an emergency. So you are just wrong all the way around. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Petroleum_Reserve_(United_States)
 
Why? Our oil consumption has declined significantly since 2009. It is now starting to increase again, but most people don't expect it to grow much.
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“Over time we think that U.S. demand is going to be flat at best, or probably trending a bit down,” says Mark Schwartz, president of PIRA Energy group, a consulting firm.
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/world/rising-demand-oil-growth-easy-when-youve-been-pits
==========

Additionally, of course, we now have unconventional sources of oil coming on line; we are already pumping a million barrels a day of unconventional oil right here in the US, and that keeps increasing.
The estimates of unconventional reserves are artificially inflated and declining far faster than predicted. And it doesn't matter if our consumption is down slightly, we still depend on oil for our entire economy.
 
The estimates of unconventional reserves are artificially inflated and declining far faster than predicted. And it doesn't matter if our consumption is down slightly, we still depend on oil for our entire economy.

OK, where is the evidence?
 
The estimates of unconventional reserves are artificially inflated and declining far faster than predicted.
Hmm. Given that they in fact increasing rapidly* that's a pretty hard sell.
(* - the Athabasca and Orinoco reserves have recently been moved into the "proven reserves" category.)
And it doesn't matter if our consumption is down slightly, we still depend on oil for our entire economy.
That is changing pretty rapidly.
 
Hmm. Given that they in fact increasing rapidly* that's a pretty hard sell.
(* - the Athabasca and Orinoco reserves have recently been moved into the "proven reserves" category.)

That is changing pretty rapidly.

Spidergoat's assertions just do not square with the facts. US proven oil reserves have increased dramatically in recent years. Oil companies are not hiring huge numbers of folks in the Bakken, Eagle Ford, and Marcellus shale formations because oil reserves are declining.

800px-US_Proved_Oil_Reserves.png
 
Answer: with a lot of luck, it might delay the inevitable recession a bit longer. It is not likely to restart the prosperity of the cheap oil age.
Agreed. Nor will the lack of oil derail future bursts of prosperity from newer, non-oil-based energy technologies.

The issue is not that we will "fall off the top of the mountain" when peak oil hits. The issue is that we want to transition to alternatives slowly enough that our economy is not wrecked and quickly enough that we can decrease our oil usage with time, to match the increasing cost of oil extraction. So far that's happening, although we could certainly do it a bit faster.
 
Is "shale oil" the answer to "peak oil"?

Answer: with a lot of luck, it might delay the inevitable recession a bit longer. It is not likely to restart the prosperity of the cheap oil age. And it's not reversing US peak production which has been declining for 25 years.

For 40+ years people have been saying what you said, energy Armageddon was just around the corner. Decades of corners later we are less endangered than were during the Arab Oil Embargo. If you read the Bloomberg article, the US is expected to achieve energy independence within the next few decades. Further there are tremendous new developments underway which could substantially reduce our need for oil. Nano technologies using micro meshes will greatly increase the battery life, new nuclear technologies like those developed by Transatomic Power which use spent nuclear fuel to run safer fission reactors and new fuel cell technologies like the Bloom Power Server.

http://transatomicpower.com/company.php

And then there is the promise of nuclear fusion. Already electric cars are being sold commercially and the market for electric cars to replace gasoline burning vehicles is growing fast. Ultimately the world will need to wean itself from fossil fuels, not just the US. And the US is better positioned to do that when compared to most countries. It has the technical capabilities and the financing to do it. Mother Russia has neither, nor is it in her current financial interest to do so. Without oil and gas exports, Russia has precious little to sell on world markets. And I haven't even mentioned the huge US coal reserves which could sustain the country for centuries.

So of all the things I worry about, energy isn't one of them. Human stupidity, ignorance, and our increasing ability to surreptitiously manipulate each other is probably the biggest risk in our future.
 
Agreed. Nor will the lack of oil derail future bursts of prosperity from newer, non-oil-based energy technologies.

The issue is not that we will "fall off the top of the mountain" when peak oil hits. The issue is that we want to transition to alternatives slowly enough that our economy is not wrecked and quickly enough that we can decrease our oil usage with time, to match the increasing cost of oil extraction. So far that's happening, although we could certainly do it a bit faster.
The economy is based on growth. With decreasing sources of energy, the economy will decrease, which we call recession. Every other source of energy requires large capital investments and gives you less return on that investment than crude oil. We already have a scarcity of capital. Our economy is not infinitely adaptable. At some point, recession will lead to loss of trust in our government, which will become increasingly irrelevant. When this happened in the USSR, it collapsed. Of course, people will continue with some form of society, but it won't be like this one. It will be based on growing food, not consuming junk shipped from around the world. We will have to move from the areas of the country that require air conditioning. We won't be driving, so food will have to come from local sources. Refugees from less prosperous countries will add to the burden. Global warming will make everything worse. Disillusioned Americans who think they have a right to an obsolete way of life will blame their own scapegoats, leading to civil unrest.

Of course, this is a matter of opinion, some people have faith in our system because it's always been reliable, but if you read Jared Diamond, you know this sort of thing happens all the time, and the psychology is very similar. The causes are also the same, resource scarcity leading to an unstable society that can be toppled by relatively minor stresses.
 
The economy is based on growth. With decreasing sources of energy, the economy will decrease, which we call recession.
Agreed. Fortunately we have no shortage of energy - we just lack the technology to convert and store it cheaply. Fortunately those are improving all the time.
Every other source of energy requires large capital investments and gives you less return on that investment than crude oil.
That will be true - until it isn't. We used to feel the same way about whale oil; there was nothing that was cheaper for lighting, or gave you a better return on investment.
Of course, people will continue with some form of society, but it won't be like this one. It will be based on growing food, not consuming junk shipped from around the world.
It is certainly true that our society will continue to change.
We will have to move from the areas of the country that require air conditioning.
Oh, I think our future will see more air conditioning, not less - since right now air conditioning takes power during the time where new technologies generate a surplus of it.
We won't be driving, so food will have to come from local sources.
We will almost certainly be driving and moving food long distances. Again, these are technological problems we have already solved; they just haven't gotten cheap enough yet.
Of course, this is a matter of opinion, some people have faith in our system because it's always been reliable
It's been far from reliable. Recall the Great Depression of the 1920's and 1930's.
 
They weren't wrong. Oil deposits discovered since then have delayed things, but not forever.

Here's an article from Bloomberg.
Dream of U.S. Oil Independence Slams Against Shale Costs

So I guess we shouldn't invest in oil production at all because it is expensive to drill wells - not. Investors wouldn't be pumping billions into shale development if it were not profitable. And actually, the naysayers have been consistently wrong for almost a half century. Much of the money being spent now and referenced your article is being spent not on the technology but on buying mineral rights. Aubrey McClendon is a case in point. He went out on a limb and purchased more natural gas rights than he could put into production at a time when natural gas prices were low, owing to a glut in natural gas supplies. Yeah supply management is a problem for oil and natural gas companies. If they produce too much prices will fall and they wind up losing money. Producing to little, means they lose money because they don't have enough product to sell. It's a constant battle for the sweet spot. That is what OPEC attempts to do and that is what oil drillers attempt to do. But all that has nothing to do with your assertions.
 
Agreed. Fortunately we have no shortage of energy - we just lack the technology to convert and store it cheaply...
I'm talking about something that's going on (probably) now and in the near future, you are talking about vague promises of scaling up in the next 20-30 years. It's a kind of cognitive dissonance that few people seem to recognize. We have technology to transplant hearts, but that doesn't mean everyone who needs one can get one. The existence of technology is the least of it.
 
So I guess we shouldn't invest in oil production at all because it is expensive to drill wells - not. Investors wouldn't be pumping billions into shale development if it were not profitable. And actually, the naysayers have been consistently wrong for almost a half century. Much of the money being spent now and referenced your article is being spent not on the technology but on buying mineral rights. Aubrey McClendon is a case in point. He went out on a limb and purchased more natural gas rights than he could put into production at a time when natural gas prices were low, owing to a glut in natural gas supplies. Yeah supply management is a problem for oil and natural gas companies. If they produce too much prices will fall and they wind up losing money. Producing to little, means they lose money because they don't have enough product to sell. It's a constant battle for the sweet spot. That is what OPEC attempts to do and that is what oil drillers attempt to do. But all that has nothing to do with your assertions.
There are all kinds of reasons why things are profitable. Pyramid schemes are profitable. Hope is profitable, however false it might be.
 
I'm talking about something that's going on (probably) now and in the near future, you are talking about vague promises of scaling up in the next 20-30 years. It's a kind of cognitive dissonance that few people seem to recognize. We have technology to transplant hearts, but that doesn't mean everyone who needs one can get one. The existence of technology is the least of it.

For someone who clings to a belief that has been wrong for almost a half century, and whose claims run counter to known facts, I think you would be better served looking at your own cognitive biases rather than advising others on their cognitive biases.
 
I'm talking about something that's going on (probably) now and in the near future, you are talking about vague promises of scaling up in the next 20-30 years.
Well, no, I am talking about what is ACTUALLY happening. All my power (including the power my car uses) comes from solar. And that sort of thing is increasing rapidly worldwide:
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Cheap Solar Power Is Fueling Global Renewable Energy Growth: Report
Posted: 04/07/2014 4:52 pm

The share of total global electricity production generated by renewable energy is climbing, mainly because solar photovoltaic systems are becoming less expensive, according to a report released Monday by the United Nations Environment Programme and Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

Wind, solar and other renewables, excluding hydropower, were 8.5 percent of total global electric power generation last year, up from 7.8 percent in 2012, the report says.

That comes just after Bloomberg and Pew Charitable Trusts issued a report last week saying investments in renewables worldwide has been declining since their peak in 2011, with the U.S. lagging behind China in overall investments in wind, solar and other renewables.
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It's a kind of cognitive dissonance that few people seem to recognize. We have technology to transplant hearts, but that doesn't mean everyone who needs one can get one. The existence of technology is the least of it.
Right. It will be decades before anyone who wants a heart transplant can get one - just as decades ago antibiotics were a dream drug that almost no one could afford. Times change, and betting that nothing ever changes is generally a mistake.
 
Putin is getting desperate. He is sending in more and more Russian troops into Ukraine. And last evening he unsuccessfully launched a cyber attack on US banks.
 
According to Putin's irregular troops operating in Ukraine, a battalion of Russian uniformed troops are spending their vacation time fighting for Putin's paid mercenaries inside Ukraine.
 
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