More Ukrainian Events

[joepistole]

Now the so called rebels are using forced labor. That smacks of desperation.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/0...brigades-for-support-work.html?_r=0&referrer=

 

[Kittamaru]

Again... why are we involved in this... we really cannot be poking our noses into other places business right now... got plenty of our own problems to solve.

 

[billvon]

Again... why are we involved in this...

I think because they are shooting down and killing Americans, so that makes it our business.

 

[Kittamaru]

I think because they are shooting down and killing Americans, so that makes it our business.

I guess... though honestly, in my opinion... you take a plane that is going over what is, essentially, an active warzone... yeah, you're kind of taking your life into your own hands there...

 

[joepistole]

Again... why are we involved in this... we really cannot be poking our noses into other places business right now... got plenty of our own problems to solve.

Oh probably because the last time this happened in Europe we ended up with World War II and millions of lives lost, millions more injured and mutilated, and mass starvation. Yeah, we had plenty of our own problems last time around too. That is why the West was so late to respond to Hitler. So it is a little late to bring out that same old excuse again. It makes about as much sense as letting your neighbor’s house burn. It isn’t a concern until your house begins to burn. This time around Hitler is sitting on a stockpile of nuclear weapons and he calls himself Putin. Putin needs to be cut off and isolated from the world. Hopefully he will get the message or a fellow oligarch will solve the problem for us. No one from the West is advocating escalating this to a Western military confrontation with Russia yet. But it could get there if Putin persists with his aggression. If you think the West should surrender to Putin perhaps you should move to Mother Russia where you can be stripped of your wealth and thrown into a gulag indefinitely or served a portion of radioactive poison for disagreeing with Putin.

Would we rather be doing other things? Sure, but we don’t have that luxury here. I am sure patients undergoing radiation therapy would rather be doing other things too. But they don’t have much of a choice. Do you want to live under Putin’s rule? If not, where do you draw the line? If you like your freedom, it is best to draw that line early before Putin has a chance to modernize and strengthen his military and strengthen his hand. If you like your freedom and think it is worth defending, do you want to defend it now against a weaker threat or later against a stronger and bigger threat? It really is like a cancer.

And I am one of the few, the very few who opposed the wars of both Bush I and Bush II. I am not an interventionist. But there are times when it is required and this is one of them. Let’s see how the sanctions work with Putin. Sanctions take time, and we should know within days if Putin will massively invade Eastern Ukraine. And that invasion would cause catastrophic sanctions to fall on Mother Russia and result in a direct military confrontation with Ukrainian troops and the onset of a real - not fake- Ukrainian insurgency against Mother Russia. The West doesn’t intend to defend Ukraine with troops on the ground. But we can help defend Ukraine and ourselves with severe economic sanctions and aid to Ukraine.

 

[billvon]

Would we rather be doing other things? Sure, but we don’t have that luxury here. I am sure patients undergoing radiation therapy would rather be doing other things too.

Bad example. We don't have cancer; Russia does. If you didn't have cancer, would you volunteer for radiation therapy?

If you like your freedom, it is best to draw that line early before Putin has a chance to modernize and strengthen his military and strengthen his hand.

I remember that rationale being used to justify the invasion of Iraq. After all, we don't want to wait for the mushroom cloud before we do something to defend our freedom.

 

[joepistole]

I guess... though honestly, in my opinion... you take a plane that is going over what is, essentially, an active warzone... yeah, you're kind of taking your life into your own hands there...

Do you really think plane passengers check the flight paths that closely? Do you think it should be needed? Planes fly over conflict zones all the time. It is just most combatants don't have the ability to shoot down planes flying at 30K plus feet. To do that, you need specialized technically advanced equipment and folks trained to use them. The Ukrainian insurgents were not supposed to have that kind of equipment. They were, you know, rebel insurgents - average off the street Joes. That is what Russia has been pawning them off as. So why would a plane passenger suspect they were endanger? The airlines clearly didn't think their planes were endangered.

 

[joepistole]

Bad example. We don't have cancer; Russia does. If you didn't have cancer, would you volunteer for radiation therapy?

I remember that rationale being used to justify the invasion of Iraq. After all, we don't want to wait for the mushroom cloud before we do something to defend our freedom.

The cancer in this case is Putin. And unlike Iraq, we know Putin has nuclear weapons. It is important we communicate a message to Putin that his misbehavior and aggression will not be tolerated. It's kind of like being a school yard. If you want to bring the bully into line, you need to give him a bloody nose. Putin's bloody nose has been delivered in the form of international economic sanctions and from the Ukrainian Army.

 

[billvon]

The cancer in this case is Putin.

Agreed! And we shouldn't be getting radiation treatments because Putin has cancer.

And unlike Iraq, we know Putin has nuclear weapons.

Again, "we have to take action because otherwise mushroom cloud" isn't all that good an argument, and has been overused. It never happened, even during much tenser and rancorous times. We won the cold war not by giving Russia a bloody nose, but by keeping our economy strong while Russia's imploded. A good model I think.

Putin's bloody nose has been delivered in the form of international economic sanctions and from the Ukrainian Army.

The Ukrainian situation - agreed. And the best thing is that US soldiers are not dying in the process.

 

[joepistole]

Putin is beefing up his troop presence on the Ukranian border. If he launches a mass invasion it will be under the pretense of "humanitarian" relief. We will see how humanitarian it is when it is confronted by the Ukranian Army. And if Putin moves the troops he has amassed at the border into Ukraine, it will be soon as Putin's irregular forces are rapidly collapsing along with Putin's invasion pretense.

 

[joepistole]

The humanitarian crisis in Ukraine is one of Putin's creation. If Putin really wanted to end the humanitrian crisis in Ukraine, he could do it within hours by giving cease and desist orders to his irregular troops inside Ukraine.

 

[Billy T]

.. We won the cold war not by giving Russia a bloody nose, but by keeping our economy strong while Russia's imploded. A good model I think. ...

Do you think we are still following that model? Or have all the central banks of the world changed it with fiat money presses running 24/7? I. e. can we forever send the bill to our children for the goodies we consume now?

 

[joepistole]

Do you think we are still following that model? Or have all the central banks of the world changed it with fiat money presses running 24/7? I. e. can we forever send the bill to our children for the goodies we consume now?

As has been pointed out to you on numerous occassions, anything more advanced than barter is fiat currency. And central banks and fiat money predate the Soviet Union which predates the Cold War by more than a quarter century.

 

[Billy T]

As has been pointed out to you on numerous occassions, anything more advanced than barter is fiat currency. ...

False. Most of history items in limited supply have been non-fiat currency. Cows, for example were needed to buy a wife in many locations. A few S. Pacific coral island with no stones, used the ballast stones sailing ships off loaded when they took on their cargo (bread fruit often) for more than 100 years as currency, and of course, rare metals and jems have been currency since man could at least count on his fingers, if not before.

What distinguishes "fiat currency" from these earlier forms is that there is no natural limit on how much of it there is. Even that would not be a problem except and especially in democracies, the people running the government tend to just make more of the fiat when the alternative is to anger voters or their subjects with high taxes.

In the US, for example, each new baby is now born with a debt of ~$56,000, so it is only a question of when a collapse comes, not If, in my opinion, if this "goodies now and send bill to next generation" policy continues.

 

[joepistole]

What will Putin do? That is the question. NATO reports the lad has mobilized his troops on the Ukrainian border and could order them to invade at any moment. It would be a significant escalation of the war. Putin has managed to get his private parts firmly locked into a vice grip of his own making. If he does nothing, he looses face with his irregular troops operating in Ukraine. He basically put them out on a branch and sawed it off. If he doesn't stop his aggression, he will bear even more sanctions which will devastate an already weak economy.

So what does Putin do? He has already ordered his government not to import food stuffs from those nations who have imposed sanctions. So I guess if you are a Russian you had better get used to eating oil and natural gas if Putin goes through with his threats. Frankly, I don't think he will. I imagine his fellow Russians will get a bit angry with him when they have to replace their Bush legs (Russian name for chicken legs) with oil and oil byproducts.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/06/uk-ukraine-crisis-nato-idUKKBN0G60Y620140806

http://schott.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/bush-legs/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

 

[billvon]

As has been pointed out to you on numerous occassions, anything more advanced than barter is fiat currency.

Gold coins are not fiat currency, although a government can attempt to use them that way by valuing them more than the gold is worth.

 

[joepistole]

Gold coins are not fiat currency, although a government can attempt to use them that way by valuing them more than the gold is worth.

Yes, they are. I suggest you look up the definition of fiat currency. There is nothing magical about gold coins. If they are not legal currency (ie.fiat currency) they are just another commodity.

 

[billvon]

Yes, they are. I suggest you look up the definition of fiat currency.

It is currency whose value is set by the government. That's why gold coins are not inherently fiat currency; they have inherent value no matter what the government says.

In fact, US gold coins are not used as fiat currency, since they are valued at a rate much higher than the stated government value. As a simple example, a gold liberty head dollar from a common year (i.e. not a rare coin) currently goes for about $270 based on the value of the gold in the coin. That value does not come from the government, and if the government were to collapse, it would retain its value relative to the value of gold. Indeed, the only residual value the government contributed to the process was in the minting process itself, which resulted in a known quantity of gold within an easily recognized form factor.

 

[joepistole]

This isn't difficult. Look up the definition of legal tender. Gold coins are not used as legal tender for many reasons, and the market value of gold is not one of them.. And there is no inherent value to gold or any other commodity do that matter. It like other commodities is worth whatever the market says it is worth at any given time.

While you are at it, look up the definition of commodity. Every year the US Mint mints gold and silver coins which are legal tender. And there was a time before you were born when US currency was convertable into gold and silver.

 

[billvon]

Instead of blathering about subjects you know nothing of my young friend, do your homework. This isn't difficult. Look up the definition of legal tender. Gold coins are not used as legal tender for many reasons.

Your sentence is a good example of Skitt's Law.

Gold coins as minted by the US government are indeed legal tender - and as fiat currency, a US $1 coin is worth $1 no matter what it is made of. Here's the applicable law:

"United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts."

Now let me ask you a question. Let's say you have a US gold coin, face value $1, minted in 1887. Let's say you are in a store, and want to buy something small. The price is $0.79 and all you have is that gold dollar in your pocket. Are you going to use that legal tender to pay for your purchase?