More Ukrainian Events

[billvon]

Rebel leaders do not hold Russian citizenship

From the UK:
==========================
Malaysia Airlines flight MH17

Three pro-Russia rebel leaders at the centre of suspicions over downed MH17
Igor Strelkov, Igor Bezler and Nikolai Kozitsyn reportedly discussed the shooting down of a plane soon after jet exploded

The Guardian, Sunday 20 July 2014 14.15 EDT

As the world searches for answers over the Malaysia Airlines flight downed in eastern Ukraine, suspicion has fallen on the leaders of the pro-Russia rebels who have shot down three government planes in the past week.

Attention has centred on rebel leaders who reportedly discussed the downing of a plane shortly after MH17 exploded and crashed: Igor Strelkov, an alleged Russian intelligence agent leading the military forces of the self-declared "Donetsk People's Republic", and Igor Bezler, a notorious loose cannon who rules the town of Horlivka with an iron fist. A third suspect is Nikolai Kozitsyn, commander of a group of Cossacks, the traditional military caste that once protected the borders of the Russian empire.
. . . .
Bezler, a former funeral home director nicknamed Bes (Demon) and renowned for his ruthlessness, first emerged after angry pro-Russia protesters stormed the police station in Horlivka, during which he was seen in a video identifying himself as a "colonel in the Russian army".

In a later interview with Russian Forbes magazine, he said he was a Russian citizen from Crimea whose ancestor died in the Charge of the Light Brigade, commemorated by Alfred, Lord Tennyson during the Crimean war.
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nor does Russia hold troops in Ukranian territory.

From Business Insider:
==================
Without Realizing It, Russian Soldiers Are Proving Vladimir Putin Is Lying About Eastern Ukraine

Jul. 31, 2014, 8:06 PM
REUTERS

In the age of social media, many people seem to have the urge to share everything about their lives: Heading to concerts, birthdays, or maybe even what's on the reading list.

But in the case of some Russian soldiers, their urge to share has serious geopolitical consequences, as a few have been revealing their presence in or near eastern Ukraine whether they realize it or not.

It's an open secret that pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine are linked to Russian intelligence. There's further evidence they are receiving intelligence, training, and sophisticated weaponry. But Russia has repeatedly denied having any of its actual military forces deployed there.

"It's all nonsense; there are no special units, special forces, or instructors in the east of Ukraine," Putin said in April, according to AP.

But his soldiers are proving him wrong.

On Wednesday, BuzzFeed's Max Seddon found Instagram photos from 24-year-old Russian soldier Alexander Sotkin, a communications specialist who appears to be based in southern Russia. His Instagram photos are typical — filled with "selfies" — but it's the locations that are telling.

In two of them, he is placed in eastern Ukraine. Both were geotagged using his phone or tablet's GPS to put him in rebel-controlled villages of Krasna Talycha and Krasny Derkul, respectively.

A serious breach of operational security (OPSEC) on social media by a Russian soldier seems hard to believe, but if you consider these types of issues are so common in the U.S. military that troops are required to go through formal training to learn of the dangers, then it makes a lot of sense.

While tactics and general strategies of professional armies around the world can vary, the behavior of soldiers can be quite similar. Especially when you have friends and family back home who don't really know what you're doing, there's an urge to show them a photo of where you are, despite the danger if it's seen by someone outside the group.

Now consider this post, from Mikhail Chugunov, boasting of his military convoy bringing Grad rocket systems into Ukraine. BBC Ukraine journalist Myroslava Petsa captured the post, which the soldier posted to his now-deleted VKontakte page (Russia's version of Facebook).

Here's another, with the soldier captioning the photo "Ukraine is waiting for us, artillery lads!" according to the translation from Tetyana Lokot at Global Voices.

"We shelled Ukraine all night long," was the caption on another photo, posted on July 23, of artillery pieces on the Russia-Ukraine border. The U.S. has satellite photos proving Russia indeed fired artillery into Ukraine.
======================

And if having Russian press inside Ukraine means they are Russian troops, well what do you call American CNN press, American troops?

No, they would be American press. If there was proof that Americans were transporting Grad rocket systems into the Ukraine and firing on Ukraine positions, though - THEN you could call them American troops.

 

[Bells]

Have you forgotten how this all started? Ukraine had constant economic problems, it's citizens have held jobs that barely let them live, its government has corrupted to the core (overrun by oligarchs), and now it has been infiltrated to the core by US/NATO. Ukrainians have lost the control over their own country.

I remember Russia could have followed the same path if Eltsin did not unanimously appoint Putin to the presidential seat. Since those days, Russia has risen in power, strength, its citizens now enjoy prime wages, healthcare, its economy is now strong and able to compete on international level, its population is now increasing.

Is that why you live in the US?

No, we will not back down and let US do its hell on yet another country.

Who is this "we" of which you speak? You don't even live in Russia.

The number of Russians emigrating in the last two years was some five times higher than in the two before Putin began a new six-year term in May 2012, official figures show.

Russia’s statistics service Rosstat data shows 186,382 moved abroad in 2013 and 122,751 in 2012, compared to 36,774 in 2011 and 33,578 in 2010.

But experts say the real number is much higher.

“The official statistics on migration are very low,” said Mikhail Gorshkov, director of the Russian Academy of Sciences’ Institute of Sociology (ISRAS), a state-funded body.

“It’s a wake up call for our politicians when someone wants to leave their home country: What is missing for him?”

Echoing the post-Soviet brain drain, sociologists say Russia is bleeding exactly the kind of people it needs to plug a skilled labour shortage and diversify the economy away from reliance on energy exports.

“We are losing the most educated, most active, most entrepreneurial people,” Lev Gudkov, director of the independent Moscow-based Levada Centre pollster. “The Kremlin sees this in a cynical way – as a way to let off steam.”

He estimated that three million Russians have left over the last decade, as many as in the first few years after the Soviet Union collapsed when Russia was in political and economic chaos.

---------------------------------------------------

Source: http://www.businessinsider.com.au/r...in-some-russians-vote-with-their-feet-2014-24

 

[youreyes]

Is that why you live in the US?
Who is this "we" of which you speak? You don't even live in Russia.

Bells, I ask you and those who stand by you to not private message me on these issues, especially in the tone I receive the pm by. I also ask you to not bring my personal life into this discussion. I know you have had zero respect for me since long time ago and don't care about not your perspective. But I ask you have respect and stop abusing me. Thank you.

I can ignore you of course, but is not in my competence to ignore anyone.

 

[Aqueous Id]

Rebel leaders do not hold Russian citizenship nor does Russia hold troops in Ukranian territory. And if having Russian press inside Ukraine means they are Russian troops, well what do you call American CNN press, American troops?

You're lying. Borodai and Bezler both admit to their Russian citizenship. And they are surrounded by fellow Russian military/FSB officers. So stop making stuff up and confess to your flaming/trolling in this thread esp. through overt lies. Come clean and at least give the appearance of trying to post halfway intelligent remarks.

 

[youreyes]

You're lying. Borodai and Bezler both admit to their Russian citizenship. And they are surrounded by fellow Russian military/FSB officers. So stop making stuff up and confess to your flaming/trolling in this thread esp. through overt lies. Come clean and at least give the appearance of trying to post halfway intelligent remarks.

I am not lying. Your Western media is lying to you.

Borodai does have Russian citizenship, but the rebels do not, they are Ukranian citizens fighting for their rights who hold pro-Russian views.

Also from here on, I will not participate in this thread as I am being provoked by numerous members who hold pro-Western views. So live in your lies. I will not be part of this farce.

 

[joepistole]

I am not lying. Your Western media is lying to you.

Borodai does have Russian citizenship, but the rebels do not, they are Ukranian citizens fighting for their rights who hold pro-Russian views.

Also from here on, I will not participate in this thread as I am being provoked by numerous members who hold pro-Western views. So live in your lies. I will not be part of this farce.

You can go hide in your hole. You can deny the facts, but that will not change them. You have not been able to support even one of your many claims. The fact is there is ample evidence to show Russians are not only leading the "Ukrainian rebels", but fighting it as well.

 

[sculptor]

Perspective matters:

anecdote:
While studying sculpture with a group of sculptors and painters who shared a space (courtesy of Dwight Kalb) and a model: (we worked in a circle all around the model) I would wander about during breaks and learn to see what others had seen from different perspectives. Each had seen the model from a unique perspective, not just from the 360 degrees surrounding the model, but also from the perspective of age and ethnicity. People tended to see and paint or sculpt the model as closer to their age group and ethnicity. Same model, different representations.

A poll released by the independent Russian pollster Levada found that a large number of Russians believe that Ukraine shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, with 46 per cent saying they think it was brought down by a Ukrainian army anti-aircraft missile and 36 per cent saying a Ukrainian military plane shot it down

...

The poll from Levada (a well-respected source) doesn't dig into these theories. Even so, its main takeaway is remarkable: Almost no one in Russia is buying the story that the rest of the world accepts. Just 3 per cent believe pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine might have shot down the plane.

I seriously doubt that we will ever see the truth through unbiased eyes.

Judgments before the evidence is in are purely prejudice and conjecture.

Without waiting for MH17 crash investigators’ conclusions, NATO chief is eager to blame anti-Kiev forces, thus “exerting pressure” on the international team while providing no evidence to back the claims, Russia’s mission to NATO said.

The Russian mission to NATO has said that the bloc's Secretary General, Anders Fogh Rasmussen “decided not to wait until the end of #MH17 investigation” to blame the anti-Kiev forces for shooting down the plane, referring to Rasmussen's comments in Sunday's interview with the French Midi Libre.

The mission also wondered why “NATO is not interested in impartial MH17 investigation?” adding that “if the Alliance had evidence – why did it keep silent?”

In Sunday's interview, Rasmussen stated that NATO has “a lot of information that indicate the separatists, supported by the Russians, are guilty [of MH17 tragedy]”, calling it a “war crime” the perpetrators of which “must be brought to justice as soon as possible.”

"a lot of information" (without specifying just what, exactly,that information is)
Is he lying, speculating, war-mongering, or playing a covert political game?

 

[joepistole]

I seriously doubt that we will ever see the truth through unbiased eyes.

Judgments before the evidence is in are purely prejudice and conjecture.

Refusal to acknowledge clear is purely prejudical too.

 

[sculptor]

And refusal to acknowledge clear evidence is purely prejudical too.

What is your "evidence"?

 

[joepistole]

What is your "evidence"?

Gee, are you really that disconnected? If you really want an answer to your question, then read 27 pages in this thread. I'm not wasting my time repeating what has already been written for the person who cannot figure out how to get out of a wet paper bag.

 

[Bells]

Bells, I ask you and those who stand by you to not private message me on these issues, especially in the tone I receive the pm by. I also ask you to not bring my personal life into this discussion. I know you have had zero respect for me since long time ago and don't care about not your perspective. But I ask you have respect and stop abusing me. Thank you.

I can ignore you of course, but is not in my competence to ignore anyone.

1) I have not sent you a PM. If others have, then perhaps you should tell them that, as I don't PM you. So perhaps you may want to not lie and infer that I am PM'ing you when I have done no such thing.
2) I am not abusing you. Unless of course you find the truth to be abuse, then in which case, there is not much I can do for you in that regard.
3) You can certainly ignore me, but it seems strange to me that you feel that it is your right to warrant lying and implying that I am abusing you, PM'ing you or that I have others who stand with me (which really, is a massive joke) on these issues, when all I have done is ask you truthful questions.

If you cannot answer as to why you are defending something you know nothing about and declaring that you speak for all Russians when you don't even live there and clearly have no idea of what it is like there for those who live there under Putin's regime, then say so, instead of lying and making things up.

 

[billvon]

I am not lying. Your Western media is lying to you.

Then here's some Eastern media, specifically the Japan Times:
======================================
Soldier’s selfies raise questions over Moscow’s role in Ukraine

AFP-JIJI

Aug 2, 2014

MOSCOW – Photos taken by a Russian soldier have sparked controversy after it was revealed they may have been taken in Ukraine, despite Moscow’s denials that its troops have intervened in the conflict across the border.

Alexander Sotkin, a 24-year-old Russian soldier and regular user of the photo-sharing app Instagram, recently uploaded a series of selfie images of himself in uniform.

While the content of the photographs gives little away, the app’s geolocation data showed that a number of the pictures were taken in Ukraine.

Images shared on Instagram can be “geotagged” — which means the location of where the picture was taken is published along with the photograph.

A series of earlier images show Sotkin’s location to be the village of Voloshino in southern Russia, where his unit appears to be based.

But two pictures posted on July 5 and 6 are geotagged 10 km (6 miles) away, across the border in Ukraine.
=============================================

Borodai does have Russian citizenship, but the rebels do not, they are Ukranian citizens fighting for their rights who hold pro-Russian views.

Well, the Russian military units in Ukraine certainly have Russian citizenship.

 

[joepistole]

1) I have not sent you a PM. If others have, then perhaps you should tell them that, as I don't PM you. So perhaps you may want to not lie and infer that I am PM'ing you when I have done no such thing.
2) I am not abusing you. Unless of course you find the truth to be abuse, then in which case, there is not much I can do for you in that regard.
3) You can certainly ignore me, but it seems strange to me that you feel that it is your right to warrant lying and implying that I am abusing you, PM'ing you or that I have others who stand with me (which really, is a massive joke) on these issues, when all I have done is ask you truthful questions.

If you cannot answer as to why you are defending something you know nothing about and declaring that you speak for all Russians when you don't even live there and clearly have no idea of what it is like there for those who live there under Putin's regime, then say so, instead of lying and making things up.

Well Youreyes, it isn't nice to lie to anyone. And it is just plain stupid to lie to and about a moderator.

 

[sculptor]

Gee, are you really that disconnected? If you really want an answer to your question, then read 27 pages in this thread. I'm not wasting my time repeating what has already been written for the person who cannot figure out how to get out of a wet paper bag.

I read 'em
I see no evidence, I did see a lot of speculation, and no small amount of name calling(really children, do learn how to play nicely together).

If you saw something different, please quote it with a determination of it's source.

 

[joepistole]

I read 'em
I see no evidence, I did see a lot of speculation, and no small amount of name calling(really children, do learn how to play nicely together).

If you saw something different, please quote it with a determination of it's source.

That brings us back to your biases, refusal to acknowledge evidence is a clear bias. If you read the 27 pages you would have seen numerous interviews with Putin's forces inside Ukraine and in those interviews with various reporters you would have heard those same folks admit to all the things discused in this thread. Most recently the admitted to looting and executions. And you don't think confessions coupled with satelite, social media, and radar data isn't evidence? Then what is?

 

[sculptor]

That brings us back to your biases, refusal to acknowledge evidence is a clear bias. If you read the 27 pages you would have seen numerous interviews with Putin's forces inside Ukraine and in those interviews with various reporters you would have heard those same folks admit to all the things discused in this thread. Most recently the admitted to looting and executions. And you don't think confessions coupled with satelite, social media, and radar data isn't evidence? Then what is?

And here, I had thought that we were posting about the airplane crash--I certainly was.

 

[joepistole]

And here, I had thought that we were posting about the airplane crash--I certainly was.

There is enough evidence to overwhelminly convince all Western leaders in Europe to voluntarily impose economic sanctions on Russia which will hurt their own economies, and still you maintain there is no evidence? This thread predates MH17 (I.e. the airplane crash) and you think this thread is about the airplane? Unfortunately, that does't speak well for your cognitive abilities.

 

[billvon]

And here, I had thought that we were posting about the airplane crash--I certainly was.

We are. And evidence points to either Russian troops or Russian hardware used to shoot it down. Now Putin is trying to deal with the fallout (no pun intended) of his decisions to aid the separatists, and that's leading to a lot of bizarre decisionmaking on his part, as well as greater scrutiny of his political aims.

 

[joepistole]

If this is a Ukrainian rebellion, why are Russians leading it, financing it, and fighting it?http://online.wsj.com/articles/a-wounded-volunteer-for-ukraine-languishes-in-rebel-cell-1407174967

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

If this is a Ukrainian rebellion, why are Russians leading it, financing it, and fighting it?http://online.wsj.com/articles/a-wounded-volunteer-for-ukraine-languishes-in-rebel-cell-1407174967

Many Ukrainian citizens are of Russian ancestry and identify more with Russian culture than with Ukrainian.

During the era of the USSR, the Soviet government was diligent about sending ethnic Russians to "colonize" the republics that were the homelands of other peoples, such as the Estonians, Lithuanians, Azeris, Moldovans, Tajiks, Ukrainians, Armenians, Georgians, Kazakhs, Chechens, etc. This facilitated the imposition of the Russian language on those communities, making it easier to feed them Communist propaganda. It also created a nation in which most of the people could communicate with each other at a minimal level, so they could entice people from one republic to relocate in another, greatly diminishing the native cultures and turning everyone into Russians.

But now that the USSR has broken up and the individual republics are once again sovereign countries, there are an awful lot of Russian people still living in countries where the majority of the population hate Russia and its culture.

The Ukraine is an extreme case. For reasons I don't completely understand, Russia has always hated the Ukrainians. During World War II, they cut off their food supply and millions of them starved. So naturally the Ukrainians reciprocated and they hate the Russians, perhaps more than any other former captive community.

With Russians and Ukrainians living in the same country--one ruled, finally, by Ukrainians--it's inevitable that this hatred would ultimately result in major violence.

In other words, this is not "a Ukrainian rebellion." It is a Russian insurrection.

Imagine if, when World War II ended, instead of maintaining the nation of Germany, the Allies had simply relocated all the German people into the neighboring countries. These refugees would not comprise a majority in any place, so the people they had treated so hatefully would have risen up and simply killed them.

But this isn't what happened after Perestroika. The Russian nation remained in existence, so they can defend all the Russian "refugees" who remain in their former vassal states.