Maker of religiously critical film shot dead

[slotty]

Nothing these islamic nutters does surprises me anymore. Its not the first act of barbarism done in the name of there religion, and depressingly we all know it won't be the last. Murdered for a bit of art. Madness. The sooner we all become enlightend and get rid of all this religious bollox the better. Eradicating islam would be a good start.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

slotty: Nothing these islamic nutters does surprises me anymore. Its not the first act of barbarism done in the name of there religion, and depressingly we all know it won't be the last. Murdered for a bit of art. Madness. The sooner we all become enlightend and get rid of all this religious bollox the better. Eradicating islam would be a good start.
**************
M*W: Barbarism is relative. Enlightenment is a good thing. Islam is not the problem -- ignorance is.

 

[slotty]

slotty: Nothing these islamic nutters does surprises me anymore. Its not the first act of barbarism done in the name of there religion, and depressingly we all know it won't be the last. Murdered for a bit of art. Madness. The sooner we all become enlightend and get rid of all this religious bollox the better. Eradicating islam would be a good start.
**************
M*W: Barbarism is relative. Enlightenment is a good thing. Islam is not the problem -- ignorance is.

true. but this sort of crap makes me so angry. such a waste. the poor sod whos dead , and the silly idiot who has just wasted his life by looking forward to life locked up.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

slotty: true. but this sort of crap makes me so angry. such a waste. the poor sod whos dead, and the silly idiot who has just wasted his life by looking forward to life locked up.
*************
M*W: Have you no forgiveness???? Life locked up is a different thing altogether. Are you a believe in waste, or are you a believer in humanity?

 

[Persol]

I'm sorry... but your religion is stupid if you feel the need to shoot anyone who questions it. There isn't much point there besides someone trying to feel powerful.

 

[Fortuna]

OK, I think we all can agree that the murder of Van Gogh was wrong, both morally and legally. The fact is that he died because another in his country did not respect the freedom of artistic expression granted in hos country.

But, otoh, let us not forget that it was an individual who perpetrated this crime. An individual whom, represents a fringe element of Islam. Remember, other Islams simply wrote editorials condeming his work, and went no further than that. Sadly, one individual went far further

But. here is what is I am getting from this thread. In the world of today, the "fringe elements" of Islam are more numerous than those of say, Christianity. But, Christianity and Judaism at this point in time have had time to adjust to free societies. It wasn't long ago that the KKK was called a fringe element of Evangelical Christianity.

Most muslim countries are not democratic free societies, yet many muslims do successfully live in free societies (USA, France, Netherlands, etc).

I have to wonder what we should make of the presence of the fringe element of Islam ? Why does their fringe seem to be larger, or more vocal, than that of other religions ? What should this indicate to us ? I would suggest that any muslim must be more moderate in order to live in a free society.

In some ways, I attribute this to the relative youth of Islam , as opposed to Christianity or Judaism (i.e. 6-7 centuries younger than Christianity. They have had no "protestant reform movement", as Christianity did several centuries ago. Otoh, is it an issue of their current world situation ? Many muslims live in countries that are virtual theocracies, is this the case ?

I must say something here though. Years ago, when I lived in France, many muslims lived there, and I remeber very few of the muslim women wearing traditional garb.

How do individual Muslims see this trend towards moderation, and away from tradition ? Does the "average" muslim want to see Islam in total become more moderate ? (they seem to, at least in France)

 

[slotty]

*************
M*W: Have you no forgiveness???? Life locked up is a different thing altogether. Are you a believe in waste, or are you a believer in humanity?

Forgive who? the guy who shot him? no. I could never forgive anybody who did that sort of thing. We don't have the death penalty here in the UK (well apart from treason) and neither does the netherlands, the ultimate sanction in law is therefore life imprisonment, so when i mean what a waste , i mean that the murderer is going to spend the vast majority of his life behind bars over a short little film that nobody would of even bothered about. The worst thing is that somebody brainwashed this guy that the filmaker was so disrespectful of islam that he deserved to die. I'm sorry, but ALL these orginised religions have got a lot to answer for, the crap they cause in the world is disgusting. :m:

 

[path]

No, just less seriously. The guy messed with the wrong crowd.
:m:

So all life isn't equal
What exactly does "the wrong crowd" mean here Bruce?

 

[path]

So what has happened is that someone didn't care for the punishement the government has put and iced him. That's were you make higher punishements.

The word you are looking for Bruce is Commits a CRIME. You see funny thing but even in France murder is a crime

You are making it sound as if he is the first to dare and criticise Islam. While what he commited was abuse of the first degree.

No I was originally just looking for comment and reaction regarding his murder. You have this recurrent problem with understanding Bruce, is it a language barrier? Show me WHERE I make it sound like he was the first. I know many people have been murdered or at least threatened in the past (including the shooting of editor of the company that published "the Satanic verses" in Norway). I hadn't been planning on making a list of such crimes as a general indictment against islam here and still don't plan to, if that had been my intention I would have framed this thread differently and started on page 1.

Muslims have objected in paper, on many occasions. The fact that the guy was only encouraged to further his assault on Muslims didn't help the situation. All that was needed was one guy to give you an excuse. I was deeply hurt by the guy, like many others, yet I haven't killed him.

You already made your feelings plain

I would not have had him killed, if only because the ammo it will give stormfront-troopers like path here.

I still find it very rich that you make a comment like that and call me a stormfront trooper at the end of it

To you this is the thing you have waited for, even wished for secretly, so you could point the finger. The hippocrite pretence. Don't you feel shame at using his death like this.

More full of shit you couldn't be, and despite your vitriol most of this thread was simply everneo and myself discussing the morality of THIS occurence. Grow up Bruce.

Yes, time for the endlosüng, eh? Ihre brauchen Liebensraum, eh mein fuhrer?

OK from this I gather that you believe that any punishment of Van Goghs murderer is equivilent to an act of nazi aggression.

The only tragic thing for your likes, is that you cannot see the self-fulfilling prophecy you live.

You are losing it Bruce

 

[path]

Who is trying to? Bottom line, you have two problems. Not the Murderer, but all Muslims should be found guilty, according to you. And you want to make a point of the antipathy towards van Gogh. Well, only one guy killed him. And two, I don't like the guy and I don't apologize for it.

I am getting really tired of spelling things out for you. SHOW ME ONE PLACE WHERE I SAID ALL MUSLIMS ARE GUILTY. Is that large enough for you to read? You have a precooked fantasy that is all you can see.

 

[path]

All of the above. If you would had thought about it you would understand that it is not an attack on the shell of a person, as would the attack on his mother or his childeren be, the attack is upon that which is tied to the very purpose of the existence of an individual. That hurts.

See I don't buy this for a second unless your faith is very fragile. A few random questions.
1, Is a human being, mother father child or whatever mortal, flesh and blood?
2, Is a human being a weak, fragile thing?
3, Is allah mortal, flesh and blood?
4, Is allah a weak, fragile thing?
5, Is faith in islam a thing of flesh and blood?
6, Is faith in islam a weak fragile thing?

Off course, If the killer was wise, her would have seen it in a wider perspective than his person.

Can you clarify this I am having trouble making sense out of it.

 

[path]

This point of you is worth an entire thread. (I wish you said this elsewhere.) You tell us this analogy (as if it is relevant) and still you complain about there being a hell. The speck of dust, gets to be as arrogant as it wants until it goes back to reality and there it shall find the "Creator of the universe" waiting. You ger the pic...

I can freely use the analogy from my past because that is no longer relevant for me in the real world. The only thing that hasn't changed is that I am still a speck of dust, god or no god. I doubt you get the pic.

That is one of the reasons why I opposed the notion of killing him. I knew that he would get promoted from joker to joker of jokers.

See that in itself isn't good enough you should be opposed to it because it is morally wrong, because life is sacred. But then that is what I perceive as an ideal perspective and I am just a stormfront trooper

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I suppose then by what YOU seem to suggest that, if a person sees Jesus as the SON OF GOD and another (say YOU) say otherwise - well well that is called a very grave insult to the core of a believe of some individuals that take their religion very very seriously. and so what?

They get shot?

typical

No that is something totaly different.

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I'm sorry... but your religion is stupid if you feel the need to shoot anyone who questions it. There isn't much point there besides someone trying to feel powerful.

I hope you mean the one that shot. And not all that share the religion with him.

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

So all life isn't equal

And where did you get that from? not from what I posted. Are the voices still speaking to you, path?

What exactly does "the wrong crowd" mean here Bruce?

People that won't tolerate what he did. (the killer)

:m:

 

[path]

And where did you get that from? not from what I posted. Are the voices still speaking to you, path?

A refresher for you, this is what you said about how you feel Van Gogh's life is regarded .

Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne
No, just less seriously.

The voice is you Bruce.

People that won't tolerate what he did. (the killer)

:m:

Which crowd might that be? You originally said CROWD not KILLER

 

[Michael]

Originally Posted by Michael
I suppose then by what YOU seem to suggest that, if a person sees Jesus as the SON OF GOD and another (say YOU) say otherwise - well well that is called a very grave insult to the core of a believe of some individuals that take their religion very very seriously. and so what?

They get shot?

typical

”

Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne
No that is something totally different.

Oh really Bruce?

Totally different?

Totally?

No resemblance in any way shape or form huh?

That’s funny, because I see a resemblance. It goes like this. If one person makes a statement (be it verbally or otherwise, ie: pictorially) and this is taken as a “grave insult” by another. Well that other person has a valid reason for killing the first. I mean, he was offended after all.

Is that what you're saying?

A) Person makes a movie and it shows Mohammed
B) Another person is so offended – because showing Mohammed is a no no so he kills the actor and the producer and the screen writer and the f*cking cast.
C) Bruce Wayne seems to think that’s a valid reason for killing.

A) A person says Jesus is not the son of god.
B) Another person is so offended – because bla bla Bla so he kills him
C) Bruce Wayne seems to think that’s a valid reason for killing.

You see the reasoning is exactly the same.

So why don’t you do humanity a favor and list what it is we, the citizens in our own f*cking country, are not to do so as not to get killed.

Can you do that for us? I mean you seem to know what is and is not acceptable behaviour in this regards.

And, Bruce, I haven’t seen in any of your posts you condemning the man as a vicious killer. Instead you come up with every excuse under the god damn sun on why this jerk-off got his panties in a knot and killed an innocent man.

Yes, Bruce it is OK for one person to represent Islam by painting it one a woman’s body. A person can represent Islam by pinching a big brown loaf on the Good Book. When you choose to live in a free society (as this ass wipe did) then you live within those freedoms. And if you don’t like it - get the hell out of the f*cking country and go live in a society that values killing artists for writing the Qur’an on a woman’s body.

It’s as simple as that.

And lastly, this is exactly what pisses everyone off.

For once I’d like to see some Muslims get off there fat arses and condemn these sociopaths in the most sever religious terms. Instead I hear crap like – Well the Russians are killing people so that’s why they had to kill all those little children, Oh, they’re not real Muslims anyway – we don’t do that, Oh the guy wrote some of the Qur’an on a woman’s body – well that’s a grave insult so the guy got iced.

pfff pure bullshit

 

[everneo]

Instead you come up with every excuse under the god damn sun on why this jerk-off got his panties in a knot and killed an innocent man.

That is simple, Michael. You find the film maker innocent, Bruce does not find the film maker innocent. Why do you want him to lie?.

When you choose to live in a free society (as this ass wipe did) then you live within those freedoms. And if you don’t like it - get the hell out of the f*cking country and go live in a society that values killing artists for writing the Qur’an on a woman’s body.

Before allowing any muslims to live there, they should have made it clear something like this : "The freedom here also means anyone can display koran on anything he finds available including a rat's arse. Our freedom is more important than any of your sentiments, if you can live with this, dropping all your stupid faith that could stir you to react against our freedom in any extreme manner then come in else get out."

 

[surenderer]

”



Oh really Bruce?

Totally different?

Totally?

No resemblance in any way shape or form huh?

That’s funny, because I see a resemblance. It goes like this. If one person makes a statement (be it verbally or otherwise, ie: pictorially) and this is taken as a “grave insult” by another. Well that other person has a valid reason for killing the first. I mean, he was offended after all.

Is that what you're saying?

A) Person makes a movie and it shows Mohammed
B) Another person is so offended – because showing Mohammed is a no no so he kills the actor and the producer and the screen writer and the f*cking cast.
C) Bruce Wayne seems to think that’s a valid reason for killing.

A) A person says Jesus is not the son of god.
B) Another person is so offended – because bla bla Bla so he kills him
C) Bruce Wayne seems to think that’s a valid reason for killing.

You see the reasoning is exactly the same.

So why don’t you do humanity a favor and list what it is we, the citizens in our own f*cking country, are not to do so as not to get killed.

Can you do that for us? I mean you seem to know what is and is not acceptable behaviour in this regards.

And, Bruce, I haven’t seen in any of your posts you condemning the man as a vicious killer. Instead you come up with every excuse under the god damn sun on why this jerk-off got his panties in a knot and killed an innocent man.

Yes, Bruce it is OK for one person to represent Islam by painting it one a woman’s body. A person can represent Islam by pinching a big brown loaf on the Good Book. When you choose to live in a free society (as this ass wipe did) then you live within those freedoms. And if you don’t like it - get the hell out of the f*cking country and go live in a society that values killing artists for writing the Qur’an on a woman’s body.

It’s as simple as that.

And lastly, this is exactly what pisses everyone off.

For once I’d like to see some Muslims get off there fat arses and condemn these sociopaths in the most sever religious terms. Instead I hear crap like – Well the Russians are killing people so that’s why they had to kill all those little children, Oh, they’re not real Muslims anyway – we don’t do that, Oh the guy wrote some of the Qur’an on a woman’s body – well that’s a grave insult so the guy got iced.

pfff pure bullshit

Are you finished ranting and raving?....Now you say:

And, Bruce, I haven’t seen in any of your posts you condemning the man as a vicious killer.

But Bruce has already said that:

It is. Although the murder is wrong. I don't feel any sadness for his departure

.


You see that's typical Western behavior towards Muslims......read only what you want and only highlight the controversial things that a Muslim says

So why don’t you do humanity a favor and list what it is we, the citizens in our own f*cking country, are not to do so as not to get killed.

You should be able to do what you want only realize that certain behavior has certain risks attached to it..... A woman should be able to wear what she wants in a "free" society right? But if she walks around half-naked day after day then does her chance of being raped increase or decrease? Of course it's not her fault but certain behavior draws certain elements from society

For once I’d like to see some Muslims get off there fat arses and condemn these sociopaths in the most sever religious terms.

Muslims did just that(check my posts)....but their punishments will come from the Creator you should try objective reading and stop looking for things that support your views

Instead I hear crap like – Well the Russians are killing people so that’s why they had to kill all those little children

Again not supported by Muslims although Russians had no problems killing Chechnian(sp) children for many years....are you outraged at this also? I must have missed your posts on it

Oh, they’re not real Muslims anyway – we don’t do that,

So thats phony when we say that? What should we say when someone who says they are a muslim commits acts that are totally against what the Koran says?

 

[path]

But Bruce has already said that:

The only way Bruce could have made a weaker condemnation would have been if he had been asleep . Can that even be considered a condemnation? seriously a mild show of disapproval but if it is the truth then we should at least be thankful for that.

You see that's typical Western behavior towards Muslims......read only what you want and only highlight the controversial things that a Muslim says

Don't go the victimhood road, try and read and understand the comments he made from a western perspective and see why people are upset or angry.

You should be able to do what you want only realize that certain behavior has certain risks attached to it..... A woman should be able to wear what she wants in a "free" society right? But if she walks around half-naked day after day then does her chance of being raped increase or decrease? Of course it's not her fault but certain behavior draws certain elements from society

Expressing an opinion should not lead someone in a free society to fear for their lives no matter how you want to phrase it. If it does the society ceases to be free. Once you cross that line who is to say what the next thing is that can be considered an offense worth death.
Regarding the rape analogy it just doesn't wash rape is about power more than it is about sex research it and see. This is a muslim perspective the perspective or one of people who aren't accustomed to seeing women dressed however they wish. It is another topic one on which I have many relevant personal experiences to relate. We can get into it here if you wish but I think that would be better left to another thread.

Muslims did just that(check my posts)....but their punishments will come from the Creator you should try objective reading and stop looking for things that support your views

As much as Micheal and I would like to believe that you were all muslims it just doesn't seem to relate to reality.

Again not supported by Muslims although Russians had no problems killing Chechnian(sp) children for many years....are you outraged at this also? I must have missed your posts on it

People in the west have been derying the war in Chechnya for years now even the Bush regime has said negative things about it. To be fair you should start a thread to give him the chance to condenm it I am sure he would.

So thats phony when we say that? What should we say when someone who says they are a muslim commits acts that are totally against what the Koran says?

We have been over this before it can be found in the quran and sunnah it just depends on how you interpret it. I think we prefer your interpretation