Maker of religiously critical film shot dead

[path]

I don't know whether Ms.Ali opposed any despot. What about who opposed tyranny of Saddam, Khadhfi, Saud &co.?

She opposed a despot powerful enough to kill her and one she believes oppressed her for many years.

I don't justify murder, path. It is indefensible. The killer would get the capital punishment. We won't regret his death. So are future killers. Do you have a pill, that would prevent them from killing & turning them into going along with future Von Goghs in a 'free democratic way'?

You have spent the last 2 pages trying to justify a murderers actions, shall I quote you? The pill is the same which christians, jews or any other fanatics had to swallow in exchange for living in a free country and being protected from harm by it's laws. Perfect? no, but it is a damn sight better than living in a country where you can be killed for expressing your thoughts or feelings and it can only exist if we defend it.

 

[everneo]

So is his killing you right or wrong?

Wrong. But this great fact will not save my life.

So you think Van Gogh was a nut? Apparently most Dutch disagree with you, again murder is a crime making a film isn't How many times do I have to explain this for you?

If someone there tells now that he is going to make a film now with koranic texts written on an actress' butts he would certainly be called 'NUTS', people would expect his upward journey to be soon, the court may porbably ban his film in public interest as well as his own.

Freedom of choice

Great.

You are defending murder in the name of honor what else do you call it. Are you also for honor killings?

Where 'honor' comes into the picture? Put honor killers in jail, none will dare to kill for honor. That is not the case with someone who believes that his own life as well as others' is not so important when koran is deliberately offended.

Man, be practical. Or get ready to be knights templar. or Bush.

 

[path]

Wrong. But this great fact will not save my life.

Then you agree it is wrong.

If someone there tells now that he is going to make a film now with koranic texts written on an actress' butts he would certainly be called 'NUTS', people would expect his upward journey to be soon, the court may porbably ban his film in public interest as well as own.

Wrong, controversial perhaps but not nuts and no court that I know of will put restrictions on freedoms which are part of law. If they did this then all it would take is someone to kill a feminist and voila! feminism curtailed for the ladies own good or kill a socialist and voila! etc etc. you get the picture.

Where 'honor' comes into the picture? Put honor killers in jail, none will dare to kill for honor. That is not the case with someone who believes that his own life as well as others' is not so important when koran is deliberately offended.

What has been offended? a book? Allah? Muslims? What about them has been offended?

Man, be practical. Or get ready to be knights templar. or Bush.

Does your notion of practicality include surrendering your freedoms to special interest groups?
An apt quote from Ben Franklin
"He who would surrender liberty for safety deserves neither liberty nor safety."
So defending your civil liberties means you are going knights templar or Bush now?

 

[everneo]

Wrong, controversial perhaps but not nuts and no court that I know of will put restrictions on freedoms which are part of law. If they did this then all it would take is someone to kill a feminist and voila! feminism curtailed for the ladies own good or kill a socialist and voila! etc etc. you get the picture.

I would like to know what that feminist did, who is the f**ker that killed the bitch.

What has been offended? a book? Allah? Muslims? What about them has been offended?

Better ask the muslims first.

Does your notion of practicality include surrendering your freedoms to special interest groups?

No. It is about knowing what is 'my' freedom.

An apt quote from Ben Franklin
"He who would surrender liberty for safety deserves neither liberty nor safety."

Another quote for you :
My freedom to swing my hands stops at my neighbour's nose.

Von tried to pick the wrong nose it seems.

 

[fadeaway humper]

You are wasting you fingertips, path. This guy is either incredibly retarded, a fascist, or probably both. Just let him offend someone and get killed for it, he obviously won't mind.

 

[path]

I would like to know what that feminist did, who is the f**ker that killed the bitch.

So again you think circumstances could justify murder?

Better ask the muslims first.

I think you can figure it out

No. It is about knowing what is 'my' freedom.

Look it up in a law book where you live and you will find out.

Another quote for you :
My freedom to swing my hands stops at my neighbour's nose.

Von tried to pick the wrong nose it seems.

No, you just backed me up it means you cannot STRIKE your neighbor.

Some more quotes from NL for you

Others were not quite so cautious. A Dutch student declared: “This has to end, once and for all. You cannot just kill people on the street in a brutal way when you disagree with them.”

Understand?

In poor taste? Insulting? Probably that was a bit of the intention. Van Gogh, the great grandson of Vincent van Gogh’s brother (“dear Theo”), was a well-known gadfly on the Dutch scene; in the past, he had attacked Jewish and Christians with enough vehemence to elicit formal complaints. But after Submission, the death threats started to come. Van Gogh, in the eyes of many Dutch Muslims, had blasphemed Islam — an offense that brought the death penalty.

Apparently some people of faith can in fact hold themselves within the rule of law.

 

[everneo]

You are wasting you fingertips, path. This guy is either incredibly retarded, a fascist, or probably both. Just let him offend someone and get killed for it, he obviously won't mind.

You just fadeaway, humper.

 

[fadeaway humper]

You just fadeaway, humper.

Well, you may be a sad, pathetic human being, but at least you seem to have a (not particularly brilliant) sense of humour, I'll give you that.

 

[everneo]

Not a brilliant judgement. I am neither sad nor pathetic. I think i am human.

 

[Tiassa]

So he got what he deserved then?

While the question stands in general, the point to which you responded with the above has more to do with the pretense motivating the question. Legitimate questions are not served well by illegitimate framing.

You diminish Theo van Gogh's murder by treating it in such a manner.

Is that what he deserves?

 

[fadeaway humper]

You diminish Theo van Gogh's murder by treating it in such a manner.

Is that what he deserves?

And just how do YOU treat it, pray tell? As a natural disaster, an unfortunate accident that came out of the blue, perhaps?

 

[path]

While the question stands in general, the point to which you responded with the above has more to do with the pretense motivating the question. Legitimate questions are not served well by illegitimate framing.

You diminish Theo van Gogh's murder by treating it in such a manner.

Is that what he deserves?

Hey welcome to the thread see how many errors you can find it really does help deal with the issues. Did BW's comment not diminish Theo van Gogh's murder? No "that is sad BUT"..... or "That was wrong BUT".... Maybe just maybe I was a little incensed at the time. Is that OK with you T?

Do you have any relevant input or did you just want to pop in to address issues of style?

 

[surenderer]

Path,
I went to the bookstore yesterday and while I was in there I went to the "Social Sciences" Section and noticed that there was 47 books about Islam and/or the M.E. and 31 of them could be considered hostile (i.e. Islam Religion of terror or Prophet of Death etc....) yet i dont here anything about these authors lives being in danger nor did I (as a muslim) wanna go kill any of these authors. The fact is that anti-Islamic literature floods the market today there is no denying that. Now should these guys be killed for their views? I dont think so but when you create such a hostile enviroment you have to expect the "fringe elements" to become active. Im sorry but in my opinion most Christians dont take their religion seriously (pray on Sunday and act crazy the other 6 days) while a Muslim just isnt like that. If this film was to show your child (i dont know if you have one) in this same light (naked etc) would you want to kill the author? most people would and thats how most Muslims feel about their religion....just look at some things that have been posted in just this thread:

Swell. He could also have spent his life sucking fucking allah's balls.

Given that muslims take criticism or satire of their superstitions so seriously that it is worse than torture or death, perhaps the merciful thing to do would be to kill them all

Hey Bruce Wayne, ISLAM SUCKS! Come and get me. You know, I think I'll get a T shirt made that says just that

.




There is a thread running about 100k dead since the Iraq invasion maybe we should spend more time concentrating of those dead innocents rather than a filmaker who put his own life in knowing jeopardy :m:

 

[fadeaway humper]

If this film was to show your child (i dont know if you have one) in this same light (naked etc) would you want to kill the author? most people would and thats how most Muslims feel about their religion....

You can't tell the difference between an innocent child and your stupid cult, can you?

 

[surenderer]

You can't tell the difference between an innocent child and your stupid cult, can you?

umm.....I dont know what cult you are refering to perhaps you should stop humping yourself and respond more intelligently

 

[path]

Path,
I went to the bookstore yesterday and while I was in there I went to the "Social Sciences" Section and noticed that there was 47 books about Islam and/or the M.E. and 31 of them could be considered hostile (i.e. Islam Religion of terror or Prophet of Death etc....) yet i dont here anything about these authors lives being in danger nor did I (as a muslim) wanna go kill any of these authors. The fact is that anti-Islamic literature floods the market today there is no denying that.

That is just part of living in a society where you have a right to express your views, you also can be sued for liable, or boycotted. After 9/11 the number of books critical to islam skyrocketed that market was rather small prior. If it wasn't for Osama & Co(not saying he represents islam) then I doubt there would have been as much interest in islam good or bad. I haven't said that muslims kill all critics have I?

Now should these guys be killed for their views? I dont think so but when you create such a hostile enviroment you have to expect the "fringe elements" to become active.

No when we start expecting fringe elements to become active and kill their critics we have already slipped too far.

Im sorry but in my opinion most Christians dont take their religion seriously (pray on Sunday and act crazy the other 6 days) while a Muslim just isnt like that. If this film was to show your child (i dont know if you have one) in this same light (naked etc) would you want to kill the author? most people would and thats how most Muslims feel about their religion

That is your opinion as a muslim undoubtedly many christians feel similarly about muslims look at DeeCees post in the "bloodthirsty" thread
he goes out drinking with muslims. That isn't too serious is it? I will tell you how I felt about insults to god and christianity back when I was a believer. The mere idea of a mortal man insulting his creator who has his very soul in the palm of his hand was just something to laugh at. How in the world can a speck of dust insult the creator of the universe?
Your analogy doesn't work, islam is not your child, you are the child of islam and as a child you know that your almighty father should have the situation well in hand.

....just look at some things that have been posted in just this thread:

Just look at what prompted their posting.

There is a thread running about 100k dead since the Iraq invasion maybe we should spend more time concentrating of those dead innocents rather than a filmaker who put his own life in knowing jeopardy :m:

Yes that is a bigger tragedy but these are seperate issues they don't excuse or exonerate eachother. Again NO his life should not have been in jeopardy.

Thanks for the reply.

PS do you think the number of books or films critical of islam is going to go up or down now? Do you think more or fewer people are going to view Submission now? Van Gogh's murder has given him more credit not less and you can't blame it on non-muslims.

 

[surenderer]

That is just part of living in a society where you have a right to express your views,

I agree but this right is both good and bad (In my Opinion)

After 9/11 the number of books critical to islam skyrocketed that market was rather small prior. If it wasn't for Osama & Co(not saying he represents islam) then I doubt there would have been as much interest in islam good or bad.

I agree that after 9-11 the books did skyrocket but I think there has always been interest in Islam (thus the growth in America)

I haven't said that muslims kill all critics have I?

No you havent and I appreciate that but plenty of blanket statements have been made that would make it seem as if this is a normal practice of Muslims

No when we start expecting fringe elements to become active and kill their critics we have already slipped too far.

Again I agree but only Islam seems to be defined by it's "fringe" elements....did we ever use the KKK to define Christians? or Hitler? or slave owners?

That is your opinion as a muslim undoubtedly many christians feel similarly about muslims look at DeeCees post in the "bloodthirsty" thread

I thought that was a joke but I dont know those Muslims but drinking is definatly forbidden(sp?) in Islam

I will tell you how I felt about insults to god and christianity back when I was a believer. The mere idea of a mortal man insulting his creator who has his very soul in the palm of his hand was just something to laugh at. How in the world can a speck of dust insult the creator of the universe?

EXACTLY thats what I was saying....now for me I feel as if the Creator will "lay the smack down" on the author of the crap but someone else may decide to take matters into their own hands

Your analogy doesn't work, islam is not your child, you are the child of islam and as a child you know that your almighty father should have the situation well in hand.

I only use that anology to show that when you have love for something in your heart and that something is harmed or insulted then some people will strike out or react irrationally......It definatly wasnt suppose to be taken literally(sp?) :m:

 

[Repo Man]

Once again, for those not paying attention; if you live in the west, you must live by the values of the west. I insult Islam freely, as I do Christianity. I don't much care for Judaism either, all separate hydra heads from the same monster.

All western countries are tolerant of free expression of ideas, though to varying degrees. But pointing out the stupidity of ancient superstitions is allowed. Killing those whos ideas you find offensive is not.

 

[Jan Ardena]

path,

Do you feel it is tragic? Did he get what he deserved?
What kind of faith is it that cannot endure criticism?

It is most certainly tragic that this man lost his life in that way, and I fail to see how he could have deserved his fate. But why do you link 'faith' to this act, as this is clearly an act of anger.

Jan Ardena.

 

[fadeaway humper]

path,

It is most certainly tragic that this man lost his life in that way, and I fail to see how he could have deserved his fate. But why do you link 'faith' to this act, as this is clearly an act of anger.

Jan Ardena.

Holy Shit, what is wrong with people here?

OK, quick quiz: Why on earth was the murderer angry at Van Gogh?

a. Because he didn't like the colour of the victim's bicycle.

b. Because he felt that the victim had insulted his faith.

Now take a deep breath, count to three and choose wisely.