Maker of religiously critical film shot dead

[Michael]

I nor most Muslims consider Osama the poster child for Islam(only Westerners do that)....but it seems to me that his beef isnt with Spain or Greece but it's with Palestine, Arabia and now Iraq....but it is interesting that you make it seem as if Spain was sitting there minding there own business and Muslims did a "preemptive strike against them" without talking about how Spain was BEFORE Muslims arrived In the beginning of the 8th century, the Goths had been ruling Spain for 200 years. They were Christians, but were very corrupt and oppressive and the people of Spain were suffering tremendously. Corruption and high taxes created two classes of people: the poor working class and the rich ruling class. Islam was the new religion of Arabia in the 7th century. It promoted justice, fairness and morality and the people accepted it. Islam was spreading very fast from Arabia to Northern Africa. All the Muslim lands were separated from Spain by the Strait of Gibraltar. In 710, Moortarik, with 7,000 troops, raided Andalusia and conquered Gebal-Tarik (Gibraltar). Tarik had a firce battle with King Roderick of Spain, who had 12,000 men with him. Nevertheless, the King was killed in the battle of Guadalete and Spain was defeated.

That’s not exactly answering my question. Does the Qur’an say, then, that it is OK to send and army and conquer another people? It seems that you say it does say that. So it doesn’t say respond to a threat – it says go on ahead and preemptively conquore another people.

Do you agree it was OK for the Muslim Armies to conquer Spain?
Do you agfree that, that would be fine by the Qur’an?

I’m sure there were some Spanish people who were all for it and some who were not and many who probably didn’t care one way or the other.

Let me rephrase the paragraph and see if you agree?

....but it is interesting that you make it seem as if Iraq was sitting there minding there own business and Christians did a "preemptive strike against them" without talking about how Iraq was BEFORE Christians arrived. In the beginning of the 21st century, the Arabs had been ruling Iraq for many years. They were Muslims, but were very corrupt and oppressive and the people of Iraq were suffering tremendously. Corruption and high taxes created two classes of people: the poor working class and the rich ruling class. Christianity .. promoted justice, fairness and morality and the people accepted it [after they were conquered and in time]. Christianity had been spreading very fast from Europe to America to Asia to Africa … In 2002, Bush, with 100,000 troops, raided Baghdad and conquered Saddam. Bush had a fierce battle with Saddam of Iraq... Nevertheless, Saddam was captured in the battle of Baghdad and Iraq was defeated. …

It taste as nice the other way around huh?

So, I’ll ask again, is it or is it not acceptable by the Qur’an for Islamic armies to go about conquering other peoples?

(I mean if all it takes for the go ahead is a corrupt government and oppressed people – well well it seems the Qur’an supports Bush’s conquering of the entire Middle East!)

 

[Michael]

And what I'm trying to tell you is that all muslims dont fight each other.....the main hotspots i have told you about are oppressed muslims fighting which according to the Koran is acceptable

Oh come on? I think it would start with the famous battle fought between Ali and Aisha in 656 and hasn’t really stopped. But if we look back just 10-20 years, there’s the Iraq – Iran war the Iraq – Kuwait war the Iraq- killing of Kurds also the Iranians conquered some Kurds the Turks conquered Kurds too, the Northern Afghanis versus the Taliban. And lets not go into Africa heck start with the Arab militia killing the Muslims of the Darfur region and work backwards.

But none of this matters, what my point was is that IF Islam is such a great life philosophy, sent by God, then one would think that at some point in the 1400 years sense it’s introduction that the Muslim nations would be peaceful wondrous places to live – but that isn’t the case is it. As a matter of fact, many Muslim nations feel the need for Shira law to keep there own people in check. Like I said, history doesn’t lie; these nations have never transformed themselves into some sort of utopian Islamic society and frankly it’s been the opposite. I mean Muslims under the Ottomans were still selling up until the 1900’s.

So what does that say about Islam? Maybe that it doesn’t work all that well? Or were none of these people “true” Muslims? Or was it outsider influences that prevented? Or some other reason other than it jus does not work?

I very strongly disagree here because Islam is a culture and a way of life......praying 5 times a day....fasting for 30 days out of the year....giving zakat to the poor etc...... that is a culture and a way of life.....when one becomes a muslim there way of life totally changes. Indonesia is an example of what happens when Muslims are left alone to run their own society without foreign interference (for oil or other strategic interests)

We’ll have to disagree here – and by the way, Indonesia like most the rest of the world was conquered by the Europeans and remained for the most part peaceful during that time as well.

But, as you like to point to Indonesia as your example of penultimate Islam, I’d say “peaceful” – yeah, its a relative term. Actually Indonesia is a corrupt dangerous place and VERY far form some sort of utopia.

If Indonesia is the best Islam can produce – well that is sad indeed. Indonesia has never formed some sort of Islamic utopia and by-and-large has remained quite primitive, quite poor, and quite corrupt. That is unless that IS an Islamic Utopia?

Again, my point is one would think that if Islam is such a wondrous thing, that nations full of Muslims would be blessed with Utopia – but that just isn’t the case. And Europe has only been a power for the last 500 years, Islam was around for 1400 – so try another excuse, because that one isn’t going to float.

The truth is the only societies that appear to actually progress to the point where the common person actually has a decent life are the ones in which religion is removed from government and the people are told to think for themselves – the very opposite to Islam.

“The proof is in the pudding”

 

[Michael]

Well if we use the U.S. for an example lets see.....we have had genocide of Native Americans......Slavery of minorities........2nd class citizenship of women.....etc etc.... all in a little over 200+ years......you know at least some Muslim countries have had women leaders....can the U.S. say that? have they even been close? how about a minority leader?.....Muslim countries have had that also

As you can see that isn't the case today. And it is still changing – something the Qur’an doesn’t. The a Constitution changes and evolves and gets better, whereas the Qur’an as a guideline is stagnating and dead.

Iran uses it – how’s it going for them?

PS: Hillary 2008

as far as the examples of the Wars you named I would have to do a little research on them....could be that they were attacked 1st or it could be because of bad leadership(I never said Muslims were perfect) Islamic Countries in it's past has seen many bad rulers but that is seperate from the religion......Unless you wanna use Hitler to be the poster child for Christianity .....peace to you

all I can say is 1400 years - oh, its always a just a bad apple each and everytime Michael . . . . nope not Islam, just bad apples.. .

:bugeye:

Yes, I would like for you to look into the wars I mentioned.

Again, one would think the societies composed of many Muslims, and as such Islamic in culture, would be such wondrous places to live – that is if the Qur’an is a wondrous book with great values to live ones life according to. Yet, that just hasn’t, in 1400 years, been the case.

And you can’t argue with history. Just like communism, you give it a go, and when it fails you move to something that works. I think 1400 years is long enough of a go. Agreed?

 

[surenderer]

Oh come on? I think it would start with the famous battle fought between Ali and Aisha in 656 and hasn’t really stopped. But if we look back just 10-20 years, there’s the Iraq – Iran war the Iraq – Kuwait war the Iraq- killing of Kurds also the Iranians conquered some Kurds the Turks conquered Kurds too, the Northern Afghanis versus the Taliban. And lets not go into Africa heck start with the Arab militia killing the Muslims of the Darfur region and work backwards.

But none of this matters, what my point was is that IF Islam is such a great life philosophy, sent by God, then one would think that at some point in the 1400 years sense it’s introduction that the Muslim nations would be peaceful wondrous places to live – but that isn’t the case is it. As a matter of fact, many Muslim nations feel the need for Shira law to keep there own people in check. Like I said, history doesn’t lie; these nations have never transformed themselves into some sort of utopian Islamic society and frankly it’s been the opposite. I mean Muslims under the Ottomans were still selling up until the 1900’s.

So what does that say about Islam? Maybe that it doesn’t work all that well? Or were none of these people “true” Muslims? Or was it outsider influences that prevented? Or some other reason other than it jus does not work?

We’ll have to disagree here – and by the way, Indonesia like most the rest of the world was conquered by the Europeans and remained for the most part peaceful during that time as well.

But, as you like to point to Indonesia as your example of penultimate Islam, I’d say “peaceful” – yeah, its a relative term. Actually Indonesia is a corrupt dangerous place and VERY far form some sort of utopia.

If Indonesia is the best Islam can produce – well that is sad indeed. Indonesia has never formed some sort of Islamic utopia and by-and-large has remained quite primitive, quite poor, and quite corrupt. That is unless that IS an Islamic Utopia?

Again, my point is one would think that if Islam is such a wondrous thing, that nations full of Muslims would be blessed with Utopia – but that just isn’t the case. And Europe has only been a power for the last 500 years, Islam was around for 1400 – so try another excuse, because that one isn’t going to float.

The truth is the only societies that appear to actually progress to the point where the common person actually has a decent life are the ones in which religion is removed from government and the people are told to think for themselves – the very opposite to Islam.

“The proof is in the pudding”

The proof you keep talking about is in over 1 billion muslims who abhor terrorism and dont chop heads or support terrorism. You keep talking about Islamic terror while as we speak over 100k dead Iraqi's lie in their streets......yet you call me brainwashed....You have nothing but hostility and disrespect for my way of life yet you claim that i give a damn about converting you. I neither have the time nor the inclination to bother with the Islam bashing or trying to defend my way of life to people who cry about 3000 dead Americans yet remain silent about the death of many many more Muslims by your hands(and you call me brainwashed )....you my friends are hypocrites...never have I disrespected your lifestyles or religions.So feel how you like about Islam....My time on this forum is done :m:

 

[Michael]

Yes but as I have said there are more Muslims in Indonesia than the ENTIRE M.E. as a matter of fact there are more Muslims in India than the M.E. also.....the Koran has had a positive effect on over 1 billion people on the planet(and growing) why do you think that is? you are judging the whole religion on what a few "bad apples" (who for all I know may not even be real muslims)

OK then show me in the last 1400 years of an Islamic society where the common people have lived a good and prosperous life, a society without slavery, with out prejudice, etc. . . all the things Muslims supposedly live by. All I’m saying is that one would think that a society were there are many “Good Muslims” (aka: the Middle East) you’d have this Islamic Utopia – BUT it just hasn’t happened has it? As a matter of fact it seems to be the opposite.

I am saying that societies that are manly Muslim haven’t ever reached that Islamic Utopia – in the 1400 years it’s been around. Well, if not, then I’d say Islam is a failure. Wouldn’t you say 1400 years is long enough to give it a go?

First of all I never said that.....and i have allready given you examples of times when Islam has brought peace to a Region....It seems to me that your whole argument is based on the M.E.....what about when it was under Ottaman rule? how about before Zionism? wasn’t it much more peaceful then?

Was it? Relatively, perhaps.

But, peace is one thing, utopia another.

Sure the Ottomans were a peaceful slave-trading warring bunch that ruled with an Iron Fist for quite a time. If the Islamic Ottomans is as good as you can get – well that’s not very good. Just read about the fate of many Arabs during this time – sure it was peaceful, because the Ottomans and Kurds killed anyone that tried to do something about changing their rule.

Is that the best Islam has produced – I mean here is a society that was strong, manly Muslim, and Islamic – and yet what a barbaric time in which to have had to live.

What about Iran – now there a bunch that made sure Islam was the core of the government – wow, what a paradise?? You wanna move there?

 

[Michael]

The proof you keep talking about is in over 1 billion muslims who abhor terrorism and dont chop heads or support terrorism. You keep talking about Islamic terror while as we speak over 100k dead Iraqi's lie in their streets

1) I have never said the word terror in any of these posts.

2) 1 billion Chinese believed in communism - so what? That doesn’t mean it works!

3) I didn’t support the war – and THAT is why I was asking YOU about war. Does the Qur’an support it or not?

yet you call me brainwashed....You have nothing but hostility and disrespect for my way of life yet you claim that i give a damn about converting you.

1) I didn’t say that I didn’t have respect for YOU, as a matter of fact I didn’t say respecvt anywhere in a post.

2) What I said is that in 1400 years Islam has failed to ever achieve what it set out to achieve – and Islamic Utopia. Then I asked what does that say? What did it say about Communism? Yeah, they blamed everyone but themselves as well.

3) I asked about the Historical wars

4) This is a religious forum – debate is in essence what we’re here for? And when I debate I ask questions and I give examples and in that way I try to get you to see where I am coming from – by answering my questions for yourself.

5) It seems that when thinking about the questions you’ve concocted all these other things in your mind that I have either said, or accused, or think about you personally – I can assure you that is not the case and I do have respect for you else I wouldn’t ask for your opinion. I don’t think badly about you, I do like to see your side of the argument and I do read your posts. And hence reply with more questions.

6) I never said anything about being converted. I do not think you a trying to convert anyone here – that has not been the nature of the debate.

I neither have the time nor the inclination to bother with the Islam bashing or trying to defend my way of life to people who cry about 3000 dead Americans yet remain silent about the death of many many more Muslims by your hands(and you call me brainwashed )

No you don’t get out that easily,

Sure you can quite the debate, but I think it in essence is the same – when you wrote about Spain you seemed quite satisfied with Islam and the conquest of Spain – however when it’s the other way around – oh no no no that will not due.

My point is that Bush thinks like the people who conquered Spain – they are of the same mind. NOT ME – I DIDN’T SUPPOPRT THE WAR!!! If I had my say, Saddam would be reinstalled and America would leave.

....you my friends are hypocrites...never have I disrespected your lifestyles or religions. So feel how you like about Islam....

If you feel that way, I am sorry, I think in a few days or weeks if you decide to – please come back and reread the posts again, you will see the points I was trying to make and that you have conjured up a number of things and put them in my mouth – things I just didn’t say.