Magen David Ambulance Dispatch: “Is it an Arab or a Jew?”

[Enmos]

Where do blond blue eyed Jews come from?

Germany, obviously. Or maybe God made them like that..

 

[Trippy]

And so? What do the Ashkenazi have to do with Israel, besides their claim that they do? I already indicated that the Palestinians who were the original Jews were Christianised and later, Arabised.

The Ashkenazi on the other hand are obviously Europeans

And back to the beginning we go.
Thi sis really getting pathetic.

Just go right ahead and ignore the fact that Haplogroup J is thought to have originated in Southwest Asia, and Haplogroup J1 Occurs in the Kohanim caste more frequently than it does amongst the palestinian arabs. Haplogroup J2 occurs with higher frequency among ashkenazi jews than it does in Palestinian Arabs, and Sephardic Jews (but Sephardic Jews have the same occurence as palestinian arabs) the occurence among Ashkenazi jews is more consistent with Iranians, Iraqis, and Kurds.

It seems to me that GeoffP could expound more thoroughly than I on this, so I shall leave it to him.

http://www.archaeology.org/9711/newsbriefs/masada.html

Politics and science don't make for good bedfellows. Or are the Jews descended from pigs?

And this proves that Jews weren't in the area around AD70 how?

Oh right. It doesn't.

 

[Trippy]

I have found that the pro palestinian people generalally tend to be closer to the facts though in such a debate as one like the conflict in palestine facts generally fall by the wayside.

I disagree.

 

[Trippy]

Feel free to point out even one.

The papers are all there and so is the raw data, gene homologues fall clearly and nicely into patterns which show relationships/

You just have to avoid all the hasbara that pads the analysis and look only at the facts.

This is clearly a woman of Polish origin.

You don't need brain surgery to see that

Moreover she is an atheist, so all the gobbledygook from mythology is irrelevant.

So what?

There were red headed freckle faced Maori in New Zealand before the arrival of the Europeans.

What's you're point?

 

[S.A.M.]

Lol so? Who cares about the Cohanim marker? Its all over the Middle East from the Hungarians to the Lemba tribe in South Africa and everywhere in between.

The problem with Israelis is they frequently restrict their sample to Jews and seem to forget that other people also exist in the world

Just because they called it the Cohanim marker doesn't mean shit.

The fact that the Palestinians have a lower frequency of it actually strengthens their position.

The vast majority of the 3% Jews who possess this marker come from....?

Approximately 3% of Jews carry the Kohanim marker. Family Tree DNA gave me the names and email addresses of a couple of dozen people in their database who match my profile most closely. (One was at the University of Wisconsin, oddly enough, where I hung around for a dozen years.) It also provided a breakdown of the countries of origin of a larger number of people who had matches with me at varying degrees of distance. Not surprisingly, the vast majority were Ashkenazi Jews from Poland, Russia, and Romania -- the homelands of my immediate ancestors -- with a few from Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary, Germany, Czechoslovakia, etc. There were a handful of matches from Syria, a couple of which were Arabs. And there were one or two from Sicily and one Sephardi from -- get this, Tamar -- the Isle of Rhodes.

....Europe.

 

[Trippy]

which could be and is probably more likely an indication of trade. the phonecians were known as traders. I mean roman goods have been found in china that doesn't mean rome conquered parts of china.

The pottery was locally made.

I am loathe to accept a religious document as evidence.

Oh yawn. In this particular instance the religous document happens to have archeological support.

perhaps but cultural exchange is never one way. If the phillistines were the orgins of the palestinians you would see some evidence is language culture genetics of a connection which i just don't see. I mean a couple of words that seem greek in origin is hardly proof considering the phonecians had a fair amount of interaction with the early greek peoples having a few greeks words in the only surviving contemporary semitic language isn't surprising.

Given that the Philistine language didn't survive (save for a few words here and there) where precisely is your proof coming from again?

You do know that the word Palestinia is, as I recall, in essence the greek word for Philistia (or Phillistine).

 

[Trippy]

Lol so? Who cares about the Cohanim marker? Its all over the Middle East from the Hungarians to the Lemba tribe in South Africa and everywhere in between.

The problem with Israelis is they frequently restrict their sample to Jews and seem to forget that other people also exist in the world

Just because they called it the Cohanim marker doesn't mean shit.

The fact that the Palestinians have a lower frequency of it actually strengthens their position.

The vast majority of the 3% Jews who possess this marker come from....?


....Europe.

Red herring/Misdirection/Strawman.

I didn't mention the Cohanim marker did I?

At least try an address the points that I'm making, not the points you assume, or think I'm making.

 

[S.A.M.]

Haplogroup J1 Occurs in the Kohanim caste

Whats that?

 

[Trippy]

Whats that?

Not a reference to the Cohanim marker.
The Cohanim marker (at least, as I understand it, as it was originally defined) was a sub group of Haplotype J2, consisted of a group of 6 markers that were initially found to be present in all Cohanim, but later found out to date back to the origin of Haplogroup J.

That is the statement that Haplogroup J1 occurs with a certain prevalence in a certain group of people, reinforcing the point that you're addrerssing the points that you think i'm making, not the points I'm actually making.

 

[S.A.M.]

Not a reference to the Cohanim marker.
The Cohanim marker (at least as it was originally defined) was a sub group of Haplotype J2, consisted of a group of 6 markers that were initially found to be present in all Cohanim, but later found out to date back to the origin of Haplogroup J.

That is the statement that Haplogroup J1 occurs with a certain prevalence in a certain group of people, reinforcing the point that you're addrerssing the points that you think i'm making, not the points I'm actually making.

Like I said, the Israelis have a tendency to center on Jews and hence miss the bigger picture. Note that the prevalence of J2/J1 regardless all occur in places where there is greater likelihood of migrant settlement. ie in all major cities of the time. Between the 700 years of war between Persia and Byzantine, to the Crusades, to the Mongol wars, all the regions which contain these haplotypes are centered around north Mediterranean, South Asia and Mediterranean Europe.

Haplogroup J2 is found mainly in the Fertile Crescent, the Caucasus,[5] Anatolia, the Balkans, Italy, the Mediterranean littoral, the Iranian plateau, Central Asia, and South Asia.[1] More specifically it is found in Iraq,[20] Syria, Lebanon,[21] Turkey, Israel, Palestine, Greece, Italy and the eastern coasts of the Iberian Peninsula[22], and more frequently in Iraqis 29.7% [23], Lebanese 25%[24], Palestinians 16.8%[1], Syrians 22.5% [25], Sephardic Jews 29%, Kurds 28.4%, Saudi Arabia 15.92%[26],Jordan 14.3%, Oman 10-15%[27], UAE 10.4%, Yemen 9.7%

J2 is found at very high frequencies in the peoples of the Caucasus - among the Georgians 21%[5]-72%,[6] Azeris 24%[7]-48%,[6] Ingush 32%,[8] Chechens 26%,[8] Balkars 24%,[13] Ossetians 24%,[8] Armenians 21.3%[6]-24%,[8] and other groups.[

See how the pattern falls? They don't have the Turks here, but if they did, they would probably fall somewhere between the Jews and Armenians

 

[Trippy]

Like I said, the Israelis have a tendency to center on Jews and hence miss the bigger picture. Note that the prevalence of J2/J1 regardless all occur in places where there is greater likelihood of migrant settlement. ie in all major cities of the time. Between the 700 years of war between Persia and Byzantine, to the Crusades, to the Mongol wars, all the regions which contain these haplotypes are centered around north Mediterranean, South Asia and Mediterranean Europe.

See how the pattern falls? They don't have the Turks here, but if they did, they would probably fall somewhere between the Jews and Armenians

Yes.
I do see how the pattern falls.

Haplogroup J has the highest prevalence in Yemen, and less as you move progressively further away.

Further (from Cruciani 2004:

If I'm reading that right, the oldest groups have the highest occurence in the Levant, with the more recent groups being found further afield, with the European, Turkish, and, apparently (it's a little hard to tell off that map) Gujurat being among the most recent variations.

Are you going to now try and convince me that Europeans and Jews are all Gujurati?

 

[S.A.M.]

No but there is significant correlation between haplotyoes of Brahmins in North India with Indo Aryans. Remember the Aryan invasion hypothesis?

Plus we had the Mughals over the last 1000 years, which is apparently the date at which everyone met the Mongols and were awash in new genes from the rapes [Mughals were Turko-Persian Mongols].

Also if you read Hammers paper, you'll find his evolutionary mutation calculations are quite significantly off. I'd say the father of all Cohanim based on the raw data would probably be closer to Roman times than the figures he has suggested.

edit:

I looked at the map closely and its not Gujarat, its Afghanistan and Pakistan, which is probably why the Indian genealogist is looking for a link between the Pashtun and the Jews.

 

[Trippy]

No but there is significant correlation between haplotyoes of Brahmins in North India with Indo Aryans. Remember the Aryan invasion hypothesis?

Does anybody still take that seriously? i was under the impression it had largely been discredited/disregarded.

Plus we had the Mughals over the last 1000 years, which is apparently the date at which everyone met the Mongols and were awash in new genes from the rapes [Mughals were Turko-Persian Mongols].

Are you suggesting this as a mechanism for the soread of some of the more recent variants to India?

 

[S.A.M.]

See edit. Its not India [or it was then, but its Pakistan and Afghanistan]

 

[Trippy]

I looked at the map closely and its not Gujarat, its Afghanistan and Pakistan, which is probably why the Indian genealogist is looking for a link between the Pashtun and the Jews.

Did I not say (or imply) I wasn't 100% certain on that specific point (which wa smostly meant to be tongue in cheek anyway).

 

[S.A.M.]

Thats okay, I am hazy on maps myself.

Does anybody still take that seriously? i was under the impression it had largely been discredited/disregarded.

Depends on who you ask, we've been like a slutfest the last few millenia so its hard to tease it out on the basis of what we know as of now.

 

[Trippy]

Also if you read Hammers paper, you'll find his evolutionary mutation calculations are quite significantly off. I'd say the father of all Cohanim based on the raw data would probably be closer to Roman times than the figures he has suggested.

You're going to have to be more specific here, as I'm not entirely sure which calculations you're referring to, and what conclusions you're attempting to infer.

 

[CptBork]

The "Jews" were there no more includes all the Jews in the world, than saying "The Arabs" were there includes all the Arabs.

There isn't even any evidence for their mythological temple except for words from that fiction writer Josephus. Simply by confusing the geographical Judeans with the Jews they have created a whole story out of cloth. Even the bones buried at Masada were those of pigs and probably Romans.

Why should anyone lay credence to this mythology?

So then I take it you feel sound trying to make genetic arguments about why Jews have no right to be in Israel, because you believe most of their documented history in the region is a myth.

 

[CptBork]

Please show one example of an arab question the right of the jews to exist as a people.

Must I continually dig up that picture of Arafat's Grand Mufti uncle, the recognized leader of the Palestinians at the time, sitting down alongside Hitler and inspecting the Muslim SS troops he helped raise? I hear filthy racist comments from many Arabs directly, and those aren't even Arabs living in the ME, so you want to tell me there's not a strong inclination in the Muslim world to finish Hitler's work, and never was even in 1948? And what about the Palestinians teaching their kids that Jews are the descendants of monkeys and pigs? Last I heard, that still hasn't changed.

and yes the question the right for a jewish state in lands that haven't had a legal jewish majority in 2000 years but general land ownership they aren't against.

The original UN proposal for partitioning the land positioned the Jews squarely in a region in which they comprised the majority. As I said before, their re-immigration to the region was as legal as anyone else's at the time, because as long as they weren't displacing Palestinians living on and using the land, it was completely up to Britain to decide. If you feel something's wrong with that arrangement, feel free to offer up land of equal value in exchange.

 

[pjdude1219]

I disagree.

that is your right and your choice but forgive me if i rely on my own expierences