Magen David Ambulance Dispatch: “Is it an Arab or a Jew?”

[GeoffP]

Present your studies again, Sam. Your link has little to do with your argument - as usual - although it does underscore your usual trolling that Jews = Nazis. Also, make sure your references prove that the Palestinians were there since Neolithic times.

Finally, it really isn't proper to hate me for being a migrant. I certainly didn't despise you because you were.

 

[Trippy]

Yeah I've seen the hasbara booklet too.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/8303274/The-Israel-Projects-2009-Global-Language-Dictionary

I can honestly say I have know idea WTF you're on about here, having neither seen, nor read any such thing.

Or are you suggesting that because one of the sources I linked to happens to be israelie...

 

[S.A.M.]

Look it up. Israelis like to confuse matters by pretending that the Ashkenazim are Hebrews as a priori facts for discussion, but anyone with a brain can see how the homologues fall together for the Levant and the Turkic populations. The data fall surprisingly well together so that Muslim Kurds from Iraq are closer to Ashkenazim Jews than Palestinians

In 2001, a team of scientists discovered that three Jewish communities of Ashkenazi, Sephardic and Kurdish Jews surprisingly shared more haplotypes and chromosomes with Muslim Kurds than with either Palestinians or Bedouins

Results of a DNA study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim appears to match historical accounts that Arab Israelis and Palestinians,[13][14] together as the one same population, represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times", albeit religiously first Christianized then largely Islamized, and all eventually culturally Arabized.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people#DNA_and_genetic_studies

I can honestly say I have know idea WTF you're on about here, having neither seen, nor read any such thing.

Or are you suggesting that because one of the sources I linked to happens to be israelie...

Its actually an updated version of this:

http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf

And is distributed as part of the Hasbara division of Israel.

http://www.israelactivism.com/

Just google hasbara.

Or use this:
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-make-case-for-israel-and-win.html

Since you seem to be pro-Israeli, it helps to know which arguments work. :shrug:

 

[CptBork]

I don't even see why genetics should be an issue here in the first place, which is why I don't even bother bringing it up in conversation. A disputed piece of land is conquered by various ethnicities over a period of many centuries. Eventually it falls into the hands of Turkey, and then finally to Britain after Turkey's ill-advised decision to enter WWI. Britain promises to divide the land between Jews and Jordanians, and both sides agree to it (circa 1920). Jews, having an unbroken cultural connection to the land spanning thousands of years, never having given up any claims on it in the first place, find themselves in the middle of a massacre with nowhere else to go, and end up migrating onto lands available for reclamation and usage.

Ever since then, the Arabs have done more than just question the legitimacy of Israel's current borders- they've questioned the Jewish people's very right to have any sort of lands of their own in the region, on top of questioning their very right to exist as a people. The more this kind of hardline threat to Israelis continues, the more it drives Israelis to respond in a similar fashion when Arabs are on the receiving end of the oppression. That's why you have cases like this, where it may or may not have been a case of racist discrimination, but you have the Arabs suspecting racism because that's been their past experience.

 

[S.A.M.]

It was to point out that your putative grandfather is actually using false ID or what we now call as identity theft to lay claim to what is clearly someone elses home since antiquity.

Fake Jews from Germany who hijack Palestinian history and then claim an "ancestral connection" to the land are no better than confidence tricksters.

The irony of course, is that these so called descendents of the Israelites now block the connection that native Palestinians really have to their own land by denying them the freedom to live and move around there without threat to life liberty and security.

As the number of teens at the site grew, and talk of the "unfair" treatment intensified, it was clear that a "price tag" operation - an attack against Palestinians or their property to retaliate for outpost demolitions - was only a matter of time. In recent months, the Dolev-Talmonim area has become a "price tag" zone.

The army had prepared for this in advance: It placed a military vehicle at the entrance of every single Palestinian village in the area.

But despite the military preparations, the youths found a weak point: a muddy path that led straight from the outpost to the Palestinian village of Bitilu, 500 meters away. Suddenly, the relative quiet turned into an assault, as one teen galloped to the top of the path, shouting, "Let's go! Mayhem!"

About 20 other teens, some with masked faces, joined him. They stopped suddenly near an olive tree, cut branches from it and made themselves improvised weapons. Other picked up stones, and one of the older ones became a security guard, making sure no journalists joined the operation.

"We will break your cameras," he threatened, to emphasize the risk of disobeying him. Another youth, his face masked, came up with a bottle of water to spill on the camera.

The crowd of rioters reached a house at the edge of Bitilu, which overlooks the nearby settlements. The house belongs to the Mazar family. Some of the teens approached the back of the house and threw stones at the windows. Other approached the car at the front and tried to set it on fire. One of the seats did catch fire, but the residents managed to put it out.

Two other members of the household tried to escape in another car. The rioters surrounded them and pelted them with stones.

Mohammed Mazar, who was visiting his grandmother, was hit in the head and began to bleed. Another relative was also injured, and both were evacuated to a local clinic.

All of this occurred in no more than two minutes. The rioters then quickly escaped, leaving behind destruction, casualties and an unsettled village. The village school was closed. Municipal workers were sent home. The shopkeepers in the center of the village closed their stores and rushed to the site of the attack. The villagers were furious.

Jamal Mazar showed everyone his son, who was bleeding from a wound to his head. Mohammed Radwan, the town's engineer, said at least 30 people were injured in the attack.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1145463.html

Now thats antisemitism.

 

[CptBork]

It was to point out that your putative grandfather is actually using false ID or what we now call as identity theft to lay claim to what is clearly someone elses home since antiquity.

Well from the sounds of it, you don't have strong enough scientific evidence to make that kind of assertion and expect it to stick. But regardless, I don't care if the Palestinians all turned out to be Chinese, they were there and have entitlements in the region, and the Jews are there and have been there for ages, so they have entitlements too. Muslims have invaded and fought over Israel numerous times, so regardless of whatever genetics they left behind in the region, I'm not going to feel guilty about it, as if the Jews I support in their quest for a sovereign homeland are thieves and everyone else is a victim.

I support a compromise based on the premise that both sides have been wronged by each other as well as by the larger powers backing both sides. If you'd rather see them fight to the death because in your mind Palestinians own every inch of Israel, then good luck with that, I won't feel guilty for prefering the status quo over what you seem to have in mind.

 

[S.A.M.]

Well from the sounds of it, you don't have strong enough scientific evidence to make that kind of assertion and expect it to stick. But regardless, I don't care if the Palestinians all turned out to be Chinese, they were there and have entitlements in the region, and the Jews are there and have been there for ages, so they have entitlements too. Muslims have invaded and fought over Israel numerous times, so regardless of whatever genetics they left behind in the region, I'm not going to feel guilty about it, as if the Jews I support in their quest for a sovereign homeland are thieves and everyone else is a victim.

I support a compromise based on the premise that both sides have been wronged by each other as well as by the larger powers backing both sides. If you'd rather see them fight to the death because in your mind Palestinians own every inch of Israel, then good luck with that, I won't feel guilty for prefering the status quo over what you seem to have in mind.

The "Jews" were there no more includes all the Jews in the world, than saying "The Arabs" were there includes all the Arabs.

There isn't even any evidence for their mythological temple except for words from that fiction writer Josephus. Simply by confusing the geographical Judeans with the Jews they have created a whole story out of cloth. Even the bones buried at Masada were those of pigs and probably Romans.

Why should anyone lay credence to this mythology?

 

[spidergoat]

Besides, she is misrepresenting the genetic studies.

A 2003 study of the Y-chromosome by Behar et al. points to multiple origins for Ashkenazi Levites, a priestly class who comprise approximately 4% of Ashkenazi Jews. It found that Haplogroup R1a, uncommon in the Middle East or among Sephardic Jews, originating in Central Asia and dominant in Eastern Europe, is present in over 50% of Ashkenazi Levites. While the rest of Ashkenazi levites' paternal lineage is of Middle Eastern origin. Behar suggests a founding event, probably involving one or very few European men, occurring at a time close to the initial formation and settlement of the Ashkenazi community as a possible explanation. Ashkenazi and Sephardic Cohanim and Israelites, on the other hand, were found to share the same genetic signature, originating in the Middle East 2000 years earlier.​

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/400971.pdf

 

[S.A.M.]

And? Middle Eastern origin = Muslim Kurds

Besides, even you don't believe in the whole mythological BS.

 

[Trippy]

There are genealogical studies that put Israeli Jews together with Kurds, Turks and Armenians. The only "match" they have with Palestine is where their genes are similar to the Palestinians

The mitochondrial DNA comes back to Germany [where the bible also puts the Ashkenazim] and an Indian researcher who is studying the Pashtun is currently studying their homology with "Jews" from Israel. They'll probably turn out related to the Taliban

Look!

The Palestinians on the other hand go back to neolithic times through genetic markers found only in them and in the local Negev Bedouin.

All the hasbara in the world can't change their genes.

While it might be true that Ashkenazim arose in the Rhine, the populations that gave rise to Ashkenazim apparently originated in the middle east

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/14/science/14gene.html?_r=1

 

[spidergoat]

Only a small percentage of Ashkenazi, half of 4% or 2% have the gene that reveals a central asia origin, probably originating from a very few male founders. That means 98% share the same middle eastern origin as the Palestinians.

 

[S.A.M.]

Hey Bhagwan. 2000 years ago was when they were mythically exiled. The Jewish religion is 5000 years old. The Ashkenazim did not even exist as a population there before 2000 years

 

[spidergoat]

Are you talking to me Jihadi Jane? Of course the Ashkenazi didn't exist back then, they were the result of migration and subsequent gene flow from local populations, as one might expect. As rigid as religions are, they can never completely control who has sex with whom. The genetic studies show this to be the case.

I don't personally care if most of them descended from a converted Viking, but just don't misrepresent the facts.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah and they share more homologues with the Kurds who also popped up 2000 years ago with the same set of genes, unlike the Palestinians who go back IN THE LEVANT, for antiquity.

Your own research link tells us that the Ashkenazim came into being with a Mid East origin only 2000 years ago.

Most significantly, Jews trace their religious affiliation by the mother, and Ashkenazim maternal DNA puts them in Europe.

 

[Trippy]

Hey Bhagwan. 2000 years ago was when they were mythically exiled. The Jewish religion is 5000 years old. The Ashkenazim did not even exist as a population there before 2000 years

Now you're just being dishonest, that's not the claim being made.

Hammer et al

Nebel et al

Behar et al

The claim is that between 70 CE and c600 AD, the population that would become Ashkenazi migrated from the middle east/near east to the Ashkenaz region, but prior to 70 CE, and back as far as possibly 1000 BCE, or further A Jewish population existed in the Levant.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah they always mess up the analysis by squishing the data. I always look at the raw data or preferably, studies by non-Jews, which avoids conflict of interest

We have analyzed the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA from each of nine geographically separated Jewish groups, eight non-Jewish host populations, and an Israeli Arab/Palestinian population, and we have compared the differences found in Jews and non-Jews with those found using Y-chromosome data that were obtained, in most cases, from the same population samples. The results suggest that most Jewish communities were founded by relatively few women, that the founding process was independent in different geographic areas, and that subsequent genetic input from surrounding populations was limited on the female side. In sharp contrast to this, the paternally inherited Y chromosome shows diversity similar to that of neighboring populations and shows no evidence of founder effects. These sex-specific differences demonstrate an important role for culture in shaping patterns of genetic variation and are likely to have significant epidemiological implications for studies involving these populations. We illustrate this by presenting data from a panel of X-chromosome microsatellites, which indicates that, in the case of the Georgian Jews, the female-specific founder event appears to have resulted in elevated levels of linkage disequilibrium.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11992249

I don't currently have access, if you do look up the study which is uncomplicated by logarithmic analysis. I've done plenty of cluster sampling to know how data mining gives desired results. Always, always look at raw data.

 

[CheskiChips]

But we're not talking about the west bank, we're talking about jerusalem.

And I was not talking specifically about NK although I mentioned them, there are many rabbinical writings from the time of Maimonedes which oppose a Jewish state.

Which are available from the link.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/index.cfm

I meant to say East Jerusalem.

I read a few of those - and every one of them is exegetical of Kesubos 111a. Condition 3 - "(3) that these nations shall not oppress them excessively". 99% of the world believes that happened..

Not to mention that most also agree that going to modern Israel is not equivalent to doing step 1 or 2 because it's a state - not a kingdom. That's what all Rabbis pre-WWI were referring to.

 

[Trippy]

Yeah they always mess up the analysis by squishing the data. I always look at the raw data or preferably, studies by non-Jews, which avoids conflict of interest



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11992249

I don't currently have access, if you do look up the study which is uncomplicated by logarithmic analysis. I've done plenty of cluster sampling to know how data mining gives desired results. Always, always look at raw data.

And?

This says nothing about the origin of the founding populations, only that the populations of Jews outside Israel, like those in the Ashkenaz, were founded by a few people, and founded independently, it does nothing to contradict the idea of a common origin seperated from the founding by up to a thousand years.

Meanwhile, we have the Merneptah stele from 1200 BC which mentions israel, and the Mesha stele from 1000 BC which mentions YHWH.

 

[GeoffP]

Look it up. Israelis like to confuse matters by pretending that the Ashkenazim are Hebrews as a priori facts for discussion, but anyone with a brain can see how the homologues fall together for the Levant and the Turkic populations. The data fall surprisingly well together so that Muslim Kurds from Iraq are closer to Ashkenazim Jews than Palestinians

I hate to step in, as Trippy and SG have already done an excellent job.

And? Middle Eastern origin = Muslim Kurds

Sheer assumption.

Only a small percentage of Ashkenazi, half of 4% or 2% have the gene that reveals a central asia origin, probably originating from a very few male founders. That means 98% share the same middle eastern origin as the Palestinians.

Quite. This is the fundamental problem with Sam and the rest of the revanchionists - Foley was one - about the origins of all Judaism. Their entire argument is founded on a small proportion of overall Judaism - the Levi tribe. She usually fails to grasp that Fsts - and similar values - can be significant even at disproportionately tiny percentages of actual difference. Huge power inevitably falls on larger studies, so you get the difference, without it meaning very much in the final analysis. I recall reviewing a paper with a "significant" 0.5% Fst. Yay.

Hey Bhagwan. 2000 years ago was when they were mythically exiled. The Jewish religion is 5000 years old. The Ashkenazim did not even exist as a population there before 2000 years

I thought you didn't even believe in all that mythological rubbish? And what in hell is "The Ashkenazim did not even exist as a population there before 2000 years" except a pre-conclusion?

Yeah and they share more homologues with the Kurds who also popped up 2000 years ago with the same set of genes, unlike the Palestinians who go back IN THE LEVANT, for antiquity.

Prove it. Illustrate no genetic migration from, say, Saudi Arabia. We've been over this.

Most significantly, Jews trace their religious affiliation by the mother, and Ashkenazim maternal DNA puts them in Europe.

Again: proof?

Yeah they always mess up the analysis by squishing the data. I always look at the raw data or preferably, studies by non-Jews, which avoids conflict of interest

How so? Should we accept studies, then, by Muslims? Christians? Atheists only?

I don't currently have access, if you do look up the study which is uncomplicated by logarithmic analysis. I've done plenty of cluster sampling to know how data mining gives desired results. Always, always look at raw data.

Simply, categorically wrong. Failure of univariate or multivariate data to conform to normality requires nonparametric approaches or transformation. Anything else increases type I error.

 

[GeoffP]

I'm investigating Sam's claims - again, now with her new take - and so far it's not looking good. From Thomas et al 2002, whom she cites but does not have access to:

"Studies of the paternally inherited Y chromosome
have indicated that Ashkenazic Jews, Sephardic
Jews, and Lebanese all have high frequencies of haplogroup
J (as defined by the Y Chromosome Consortium
2002), in contrast to the populations of central Europe
(Ritte et al. 1993a; Santachiara-Benerecetti et al.
1993)."

and

"Subsequent analyses have
confirmed a substantial sharing of Y-chromosome haplotypes
among different Jewish communities and also between
Jewish and non-Jewish Near Eastern populations
(Hammer et al. 2000; Nebel et al. 2000)."

I'll keep investigating as I go, although I'm submitting a grant this Friday and my time over the next couple days may be quite limited.