Magen David Ambulance Dispatch: “Is it an Arab or a Jew?”

[S.A.M.]

I doubt anyone here has read much about this topic as I have

There is a time for reading Fraggle and its not when a shoah is in progress

And actually, the people who oppose Zionism are the religious ones. Its the secular ones who are the racists. Israel was established by atheists and its Neurterei Kartei which oppose them

Maybe you ought to read some books yourself/

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

 

[quadraphonics]

Well then there is even more reason to be proactive if its still going on, isn't there?

Indeed. And so you should do that, instead of being reactive. If these systems were weakend by reaction - rather than being strengthened - they would have long since disappeared.

So stop feeding them, take a deep breath, read a book or two, and think about what would be constructive here, instead of what would gratify your ego.

 

[S.A.M.]

Indeed. And so you should do that, instead of being reactive. If these systems were weakend by reaction - rather than being strengthened - they would have long since disappeared.

So stop feeding them, take a deep breath, read a book or two, and think about what would be constructive here, instead of what would gratify your ego.

I think creating awareness is a major issue at the moment. I'll take a deep breath and read a good book once the blockade is lifted. Its not in me to set aside abuse for a chill pill.

I don't expect to reach hasbara candidates like you or spidergoat. But every single person who becomes aware of what Israel is doing is one person more informed about the debate

It took 50 years for BDS to catch on in South Africa and no one even remembers Ella Baker or the work she did for civil rights in the US. Unfortunately we don't have the luxury of time when even the EMT needs to know how Jewish an injured child is.

 

[quadraphonics]

I think creating awareness is a major issue at the moment.

Not really. The issue is more one of caring than knowing, and the lack of promising options.

I'll take a deep breath and read a good book once the blockade is lifted. Its not in me to set aside abuse for a chill pill.

Given that there's always going to be abuse somewhere, that seems like a poor plan.

I don't expect to reach hasbara candidates like you or spidergoat.

If you expect to "reach" anyone with this fantasy approach, you're kidding yourself. Your activities here are a theater for your own personal gratification, and nothing else. And "hasbara candidates" are an essential requirement of that: it's clear that what you get off on is conflict with them, and the associated bolstering of your fantasy identity as Savior of Palestine. After all, you're fighting the instantiations of Zionist aggression, right?

Never mind that you're out of touch with reality, alienating the third parties you claim to be reaching out to, and generally obstructing any possibility of constructive dialogue.

I'd note that I'm not actually particularly favorable towards Israel. I just like poking holes in the fantasy ideations of nimrods (hence my activities on this site). And that demands that you cast me as an enemy, and attack me. In truth, I am very much more your enemy than Israel, since Israel poses no threat to your ideation. I, on the other hand, must be resisted at all costs, lest reality impinge on your ego fantasy.

The fact that you can't distinguish between a contrarian like me and an actual Zionist gives lie to your noble agenda. You're looking for props to attack, and also maybe friends to cheer you on, and how any of that effects anything in the real world is immaterial. This also explains your fixation on distant conflicts, insulated from your local reality: apart from the mundanity of local conflict, it has the potential of impinging on your fantasies.

But every single person who becomes aware of what Israel is doing is one person more informed about the debate

Too bad you are so counterproductive at creating awareness in others, then.

and no one even remembers Ella Baker or the work she did for civil rights in the US.

Yes we do.

You should stop telling other people what they do and don't experience. It's another tell-tale sign that you're using them as props in a fantasy, which is terribly rude.

Unfortunately we don't have the luxury of time when even the EMT needs to know how Jewish an injured child is.

Given that nothing you do or say has any bearing on what goes on in the actual conflict, there is no urgency whatsoever. Nor is there any "we," so far as I can tell. This is just you and your delusions of relevance, power and righteousness.

 

[S.A.M.]

I'd note that I'm not actually particularly favorable towards Israel

Sorry. Thats just too much like James' declarations to take seriously.

I recommend you read this excellent bit of riposte from Gustav for edification.

You're 100% pro-Israeli. I notice that all the people I "alienate" have great difficulty in verbalising their support for the Palestinians.

If you have something to say on the racism of Israelis, do share it.

 

[CptBork]

And actually, the people who oppose Zionism are the religious ones. Its the secular ones who are the racists. Israel was established by atheists and its Neurterei Kartei which oppose them

Maybe you ought to read some books yourself/

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

So then why are Israeli atheists treated as second class citizens? Plenty of military service exemptions, tax breaks, subsidies, government program spending, etc. that they don't get access to, because they don't share the "correct" point of view. I would argue atheists are actually the only ones who can peacefully unite the middle east, we're the only ones who can find rational common grounds.

 

[S.A.M.]

So then why are Israeli atheists treated as second class citizens? Plenty of military service exemptions, tax breaks, subsidies, government program spending, etc. that they don't get access to, because they don't share the "correct" point of view. I would argue atheists are actually the only ones who can peacefully unite the middle east, we're the only ones who can find rational common grounds.

And then we open our eyes, look at Zionism and see how far that illusion goes. Before Zionism came to the Jews, how did they fare as oppressors? How have they evolved since?

 

[CptBork]

And then we open our eyes, look at Zionism and see how far that illusion goes. Before Zionism came to the Jews, how did they fare as oppressors? How have they evolved since?

What was there for the Jews to oppress? That would have been suicide. Since then, they have evolved to resist oppression from much larger powers (Arabs, Europe, etc.), and in the process they've also evolved to become accustomed to a lower standard of accountability than what its allies hold themselves to. That's how people usually behave when subjected to two wars of attempted extermination (the Holocaust and the 1948 Arab invasion), and then having their basic sovereignty questioned for the next 60 years.

I believe Israeli society has lost much of its political sanity over the last decade and especially in the last couple of years. I blame that partially on people like you who keep feeding their trolls, and partially on people like us for coddling them, as this is what has led to the rise of Israel's religious right. But make no mistake, it's clear there are very strong correlations between religiosity and Israeli violence towards Palestinians and other Arabs. The chief refrain coming from Israel at the moment as to why they can't partition the land is because "God gave them the whole thing". Doesn't sound like a very atheistic argument to me.

 

[S.A.M.]

Do Jews have a basic sovereignty any more than Muslims do?

What is "basic sovereignty" in the religious Jew sense?

What is a "sovereign" Jew?

If an armed man breaks into your house, is he exercising sovereignty?

 

[CheskiChips]

I doubt anyone here has read much about this topic as I have

There is a time for reading Fraggle and its not when a shoah is in progress

And actually, the people who oppose Zionism are the religious ones. Its the secular ones who are the racists. Israel was established by atheists and its Neurterei Kartei which oppose them

Maybe you ought to read some books yourself/

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

Neturei Karta is about as religious as a bagel. Who cares what the minority thinks? None of them have written books - and none of them are respected as anything.

Still, the answer to your original question - "Why did they ask?".

In Israel they have two of everything, one normal one and one bullet proof one. Busses that drive through the west bank are armored. If it was an Arab child they would have sent the bullet proof one because riots could ensue...as they often do every time an Arab gets injured.

 

[S.A.M.]

But we're not talking about the west bank, we're talking about jerusalem.

And I was not talking specifically about NK although I mentioned them, there are many rabbinical writings from the time of Maimonedes which oppose a Jewish state.

Which are available from the link.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/index.cfm

 

[CptBork]

Do Jews have a basic sovereignty any more than Muslims do?

Nope, not at all. And when you look at a map of the middle east and see how much territory the Muslims have acquired over the years, and compare it to what Jews have acquired over the years, you can clearly see Muslim sovereignty is not under any serious territorial threat. Corrupt governments and oil contracts are a bigger threat to Muslim stability and sovereignty than Israel is.

What is "basic sovereignty" in the religious Jew sense?

What is a "sovereign" Jew?

In the religious sense, it's the right to live in a country that enshrines respect for your religion and guarantees your ability to freely practice it in perpetuity. In the more general sense, a sovereign Jew is one who's been granted the right to self-determination together with other individuals having the same cultural and historic mindset. Basic sovereignty is the fundamental raison d'etre for any country, Israel is hardly alone in having this mentality. They want a state of their own where they won't feel oppressed or restricted by a larger ethnicity, and given the grounds on which so many other countries and ethnicities have come to possess their territories, Israelis are fully entitled to have such a state, somewhere on this planet.

If an armed man breaks into your house, is he exercising sovereignty?

Yeah I've heard this refrain from you many times. What if your grandparents stole your house from someone else, whose grandparents in turn stole it from someone else still, and so on so forth down the line? Then the descendants of the original owners finally return and want to negotiate on getting back a piece of the backyard which has been unused for the last 1000 years, and the present homeowners try to kill them, sending their children to live in someone else's home so they won't have to be party to the impending conflict. You can take the analogy in either direction.

 

[S.A.M.]

Huh? You do realise the Palestinians are descended from the Hebrews and the Ashkenazi are Khazarites? Besides, who wants to resurrect a tribal religion that is incompatible with good sense? Not even Israelis. The just use the religious to worship the golden calf

 

[spidergoat]

But we're not talking about the west bank, we're talking about jerusalem.

And I was not talking specifically about NK although I mentioned them, there are many rabbinical writings from the time of Maimonedes which oppose a Jewish state.

Which are available from the link.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/index.cfm

That kind of assumes religious texts are internally consistent, which they are not. That leaves people to pick and choose their interpretation with selective attention.

 

[CptBork]

Huh? You do realise the Palestinians are descended from the Hebrews and the Ashkenazi are Khazarites? Besides, who wants to resurrect a tribal religion that is incompatible with good sense? Not even Israelis. The just use the religious to worship the golden calf

And you have what? A couple of obscure genetic studies that potentially indicate such correlations? Is this a consensus of the community of world geneticists the way biologists almost universally agree on evolution? The Palestinians speak Arabic, and there's no scientific or historical reasons to think the vast bulk of their ancestors spoke any differently. I'm sure some of them have bred with descendants of the Hebrews over the centuries, just like 80% of Britons "descend" from King Edward II. And the "Khazarites", as the Iranian regime likes to call any pale-skinned Jew, have also been shown to have Hebrew lineage, also through genetics. I don't see what the pre-occupation with the Ashkenazis is, though. Most Israelis descend from the very people you folks booted out of your own lands, Ashkenazi racism is more an issue for them to worry about than it is for you.

 

[CptBork]

And in any case I didn't say the Palestinians needed Hebrew lineage to have a right to live in the region. You're the one talking about them as if they consistently owned and used the whole patch of land throughout history, I'm merely pointing out why it's not such a crime that Jews re-immigrated to the region and settled lands that weren't being used. Hardly any Palestinians were displaced prior to 1948, and now the Arabs think that after creating this disaster, then keeping Palestinian refugees in camps to multiply 6-fold, they can just drop the whole population on Israel to overrun it.

 

[S.A.M.]

And you have what? A couple of obscure genetic studies that potentially indicate such correlations? Is this a consensus of the community of world geneticists the way biologists almost universally agree on evolution? The Palestinians speak Arabic, and there's no scientific or historical reasons to think the vast bulk of their ancestors spoke any differently. I'm sure some of them have bred with descendants of the Hebrews over the centuries, just like 80% of Britons "descend" from King Edward II. And the "Khazarites", as the Iranian regime likes to call any pale-skinned Jew, have also been shown to have Hebrew lineage, also through genetics. I don't see what the pre-occupation with the Ashkenazis is, though. Most Israelis descend from the very people you folks booted out of your own lands, Ashkenazi racism is more an issue for them to worry about than it is for you.

There are genealogical studies that put Israeli Jews together with Kurds, Turks and Armenians. The only "match" they have with Palestine is where their genes are similar to the Palestinians

The mitochondrial DNA comes back to Germany [where the bible also puts the Ashkenazim] and an Indian researcher who is studying the Pashtun is currently studying their homology with "Jews" from Israel. They'll probably turn out related to the Taliban

Look!

[After the film] Anat Tzruya got up to speak. Her language was abusive, and she'd never use such terminology had she been talking about any other minority. She set out to draw a profile of the typical haredi woman, since the students wouldn't be likely to know any of them. After all, she spent four years studying the matter. These are women who live under severe gender repression. They are purposefully kept undeveloped and primitive. They are cut off from sources of information. They live under permanent threats of the dangers of the outside world. If any of them ever try to contact someone from the outside world she will be punished and ostracized. They are demeaningly segregated in all parts of their lives - at home, on the street, on buses, everywhere. They must have permission from their husband and a rabbi for any activity. They plead and beg to be let out of the pit into which they've been thrust, but are not allowed out and fear the repercussions if they try. Some of them called her secretly, and begged of her that she do something about the buses, which is what motivated her to dedicate four hard years with no remuneration to the matter....

http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/2010/01/black-bus.html

The Palestinians on the other hand go back to neolithic times through genetic markers found only in them and in the local Negev Bedouin.

All the hasbara in the world can't change their genes.

 

[GeoffP]

There are genealogical studies that put Israeli Jews together with Kurds, Turks and Armenians. The only "match" they have with Palestine is where their genes are similar to the Palestinians

We've been over that study. It shows no greater or lesser relation of the sampled Jewish population to Kurds and Turks and Armenians than to Palestinians. Your interpretation is selective.

The mitochondrial DNA comes back to Germany [where the bible also puts the Ashkenazim] and an Indian researcher who is studying the Pashtun is currently studying their homology with "Jews" from Israel. They'll probably turn out related to the Taliban

Reference, please?

The Palestinians on the other hand go back to neolithic times through genetic markers found only in them and in the local Negev Bedouin.

All the hasbara in the world can't change their genes.

Nor all the specious interpretation. How long have the Bedouin lived there? What is the direction of genetic migration in their community?

 

[GeoffP]

You're 100% pro-Israeli. I notice that all the people I "alienate" have great difficulty in verbalising their support for the Palestinians.

Or you, in your support for anyone else.

 

[S.A.M.]

There are many studies. The closest genetic relatedness of the Ashkenazim is to the Kurds. Even the Bible says they are not Jews. The four women who are their eve all fall in Europe [the current women are Nazis, apparently]. The Palestinians are there since neolithic times although migrants like you have diluted the blood of their children as you have diluted the blood of yours.