Lord, Lunatic or Liar?

[Tiassa]

Lori--

I'm not ignoring your 6/14 post. I promise I'll have a response for you if you still want/need/desire it. Frankly, I have an answer but I'm quite sure the words I'm using to actualize it fall within a vague sense of impropriety. It's partially a "Duh," aspect, and partially much more; please forgive me for the delay.

thanx,
Tiassa

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

 

[Searcher]

I'll be addressing Tiassa's concerns, and not your purposely inflammatory posts. You'll do well do sit back and learn.

Pashley,

Purposely inflammatory? Just what adjective would you assign to the following remarks made by you about me?

See what happens when you take too many hallucegenic drugs, kids?

Anyone that thinks Mary was impregnated by aliens which resulted in Jesus is nuts. You'll notice my first reply was more kind.

Whether or not you feel my remarks were "purposely inflammatory", the truth of them can hardly be denied. If you'll notice, I did not attack you personally, as you had done to me, but presented you with some very valid reasons why I do not accept Christianity as "The Way". Christianity as an institution has been anything but Christlike. There were many other articles I could have posted but didn't. A couple of topics that are particularly close to my heart include the cruel treatment of the Native Americans by Christians, as well as the destruction of ancient knowledge (the destruction of the Alexandria Library, records and artifacts belonging to ancient American cultures, etc.). I do not think that this is irrelevant!

I understand that it was not Jesus who authorized such ill behavior in his followers, though they felt quite free to do these things in his name. I understand that Jesus was a decent, honest, wise, loving human being. I do not think he was half God, nor do I think he was God incarnate. I do not necessarily believe that he himself ever claimed such a thing. If he was half anything other than human, then the only thing that makes sense to me is that he was half extraterrestrial. When I read the bible in that light, the pieces of the puzzle begin to fall into place a bit.

So you don't agree with me - why do you feel the need to attack me personally? Is that how you represent Christ? Is that supposed to influence me to give up my Pagan ways and follow Christ? Is it supposed to influence any Pagan to follow Christ? Perhaps I'm not the only one who could benefit from your advice to "sit back and learn"?

I'll tell you what, Pashley: if you'll try to be a little more "Christlike" in your dealings with me, I'll forgo mentioning some of the past Christian atrocities that we all already know about anyway. Deal?

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com

 

[pashley]

Searcher,

From this point on, I'm ignoring you.

Not because you have any decent points to debate, but rather because your tone has been, from the outset, caustic, inflammatory and infantile.

I don't need YOU to tell me to be more Christ-like, as you spit in my face, either.

When you get over your obvious hate for Christianity, come back.

Otherwise, leave me alone.

------------------
"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley

 

[Searcher]

What exactly are you trying to say?

I went to the site you posted regarding the inquisition and througherly read it. It was not condoning the inquisition but pointing out that it not only affected the innocent but true believers also. It actually gives accounts of the atrocities visited on them also.

Tony,

First of all I would like to say that none of this was directed against you, and I apologize if it came off that way. I suppose you took it personally because it exposed the atrocities of those who supposedly followed Christ, those who you would therefore consider brothers and sisters in Christ. I can't really help that - those things happened, and they must not be forgotten lest they happen again. I'm sorry you felt personally attacked - that was definitely not my intention (you're one of the Christians on this board that I like, Tony - I didn't mean to hurt you!).

I never said nor implied that the site was condoning the Inquisition. It is a Christian site that devotes a great deal of space to explaining why the Roman Catholic church is so screwed up. But the Roman Catholic church supposedly follows Christ - and yet, practically everything they've ever done would make Jesus throw a major fit. My point is that so much of the suffering in the world is done in the name of Jesus - why is that?

If your beef is with religion then yes I understand what you mean, the RC church has blotted its record book big time, as has just about every religion Christian or otherwise and including paganism throughout history, as have I in the way I lived and as have we all. But as I and many others who place their faith solely in Christ as the way of salvation and not organised religion, as we have asked time and again please see past what people have done and try to see who and what the real character and nature of God is. We as humans who devise, scheme, manipulate and attach each other rarely show the honest truth in out actions.

My beef is with those who have acted inhumanely toward their fellow man throughout history. Partly. I also have a beef with those characters who proclaimed themselves "gods" and caused the human race a great deal of misery throughout the Old Testament. In my opinion, they're also the ones who are behind so much of beef #1. Ummm, that's not the whole of it either. The rest of my beef at the present moment is with Pashley - is that honest enough for you?

Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm continually hearing the same record playing about God and people making assumptions about Him based on past atrocities, based on past history of said religions or branches of said religions. Based on what men who make claims of serving God have done and not on what is truly shown in God's word if we honestly want to find it. The very truth of who He is and what He has done.

I have a completely different idea of who and what God is (the real God, I mean), and it has nothing to do with the ancient astronauts, or whoever they were, who once flew around the heavens and spoke to man face to face. I believe "God" is a divine living force, if you will. Neither "good" nor "bad" - just there. The god-force can be accessed by any intelligent being, and it can be used for purposes that are either "good" or "evil", depending on the will or intent of the being who accesses that force. I do not believe that this "God" is a person, or even anything like a person. One can refer to this "God" as "He" or "She", but that is only for convenience. It should be understood that "God" has no sex organs, and therefore is neither male nor female. However, I believe there are "male" and "female" aspects of the god-force. I also believe that "God" has no real preference for how a particular event turns out - such preference lives only within those beings who are using the god-force for their own purposes. Sort of an impersonal god, until you make "him" or "her" a part of you, or make yourself a part of "him" or "her", I guess you might say. But I do feel there are natural laws in this universe that guarantee that you get back whatever you send out - good or bad, so it's not a good idea to do things to bring harm to others, if for no other reason than because you don't want to find it back in your own lap one day.

I'm sure I've explained it at least as badly as the Christians on this board explain their God, but there it is.

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com

 

[Searcher]

Originally posted by pashley:
Searcher,

From this point on, I'm ignoring you.

Not because you have any decent points to debate, but rather because your tone has been, from the outset, caustic, inflammatory and infantile.

I don't need YOU to tell me to be more Christ-like, as you spit in my face, either.

When you get over your obvious hate for Christianity, come back.

Otherwise, leave me alone.

Whatever, Pashley.



------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com

 

[Searcher]

But, again, thank you, Searcher, for the enlightening articles. You've given me much in topic to chew on.

Tiassa,

You're welcome - I think. Seems some of the Christians would like to burn me at the stake for it! I didn't quite mean for it to turn out that way, but I can understand why they'd be a bit touchy on this subject. Oh well...enjoy!


------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com

 

[Tony H2o]

Searcher,

I have a completely different idea of who and what God is (the real God, I mean), and it has nothing to do with the ancient astronauts, or whoever they were, who once flew around the heavens and spoke to man face to face. I believe "God" is a divine living force, if you will. Neither "good" nor "bad" - just there. The god-force can be accessed by any intelligent being, and it can be used for purposes that are either "good" or "evil", depending on the will or intent of the being who accesses that force.

The force Luke....huuuuuuugggg......use the force

Sorry buddy, I'm feeling a little bit light hearted and just couldn't resist

Not trying trying to make light of what's close to your heart girl, thanks for the honest and sincere response. Seriously thanks. I get the Kama thing you were speaking of, it gells in well and probably originates from Jesus' words regarding reaping what you sow and the do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Your explanation wasen't as bad as you thought hey?

Allcare

Tony


Pash,

What's up mate? You seem a little ticked off, I understand the feeling Brother. Sometimes them thar walls just don't come down do they? I think it gets a bit frustrating for all of us at times.

Anyway I just thought I'd butt in.

Back to the originally scheduled program.

Allcare

Tony

 

[Tony H2o]

MOONCAT, SEARCHER

Sorry about yelling but I was just sitting here meditating (no not the OOOMMM, OOOMMM type) I was just thinking deeply about the Lord and His character and nature and reflecting of a number of things you guys are always saying including Tiassa. Ok time for a full stop to catch your breath. And well the Lord dropped a word into my heart and it was like someone turned a light on or someting because I realised that you do know who He is but in a different way and in a limited (no offense) way comparred to How HE wants you to know and understand Him and that your only getting a glimpse of who He really is and that it may be because of some past resentment you could have regarding religion and and and I could probably go on and on. But what I'm trying to say in a gibberish way is what I think struck me once before when I was conversing with Mooncat I think and it was something that Jesus said on regular occassions to inspire people to truly search out who the Father is and what the Kingdom of God represented and that was the words "You are not far from the Kingdom of God" and I know that I know that other Christians are going to be saying things like how can He say that, by what right does He infer that, dosen't he (me) know that these people are pagans and wiccans and witches and warlocks and they probably run around starkers at new moon gatherings blah, blah, blah. But Jesus saw insight in exactly the same kind of people and He inspired them by who He was to truly seek the truth and I would like to try and do the same, to inspire people by who Jesus really is, by who God truly is to realise that they do have some concept, some grasp, some understanding of who God the Fatehr is and what His true character and nature are. That they are not as far from Him as they are allways sterotypically placed. Yes they may be wrong in some things but so am I, yes they may not truly see what I see but what kind of inspiration do they have to do otherwise? Do you see what I'm seeing? Do you understand where I'm coming from and what I'm getting at?

God is trying to get the truth through but theirs a filter of unforgiven or unrepentant sin in the way that the evil one uses to distort the image for all of us. I know I know it sounds corny and cookey but its the simplist way I can explain it.

What I'd really like to do is try to do is an equivelance kind of test to see what the right parts of the message are and to try and clear up any missconceptions or understandings. Man alive everyone out there is going to think I've gone off the deep end with this.

Would you guys and gals like to do that? Post up the core beliefs we hold to and compare notes? See what bits are right and how they can be explained by the character and nature of God. I'm not talking about a "but the bible says" seminar (although I will refer to it as a reference). Just an honest up front discussion about core beliefs and what they are based on? Why we believe them? What they show us about the why and the who of this mysterious "Force"

Would anyone be interested if I started a topic on this? Or should we just pick it up from here?

Or maybe I should just shut the heck up and hide in embarresment

Allcare
Tony


PS Sorry about sounding so overexcited. Just when the lights go on and Tony comes home, well its refreshing sometimes.

 

[Tiassa]

Lori ... (to all others, I hope you'll forgive my fourth or so post in a row )

Honey, did you get my point at all? I'm saying that just because you got four different versions of the details and circumstance, doesn't mean that the shooting never occurred. So you find little discrepancies maybe in the story of the resurrection (I remember Flash posting some of those), and it's all in the insignificant details, of like who got to the tomb first, and who saw the angel of the Lord and when, but the fact is that the resurrection still occurred, and that's what's important.

I'm rolling it over and over in my brain, Lori, and I've come to a fork in the road; to be quite honest, one path leads us back to our favorite quagmire, the other to a strange zone where we're staring at the same thing and disagreeing on what we see. To wit, which way do the wheels on a car turn, clockwise or counterclockwise? I do believe it's entirely possible we're just forgetting that the other person is standing on the other side of the car.

What I'm pointing to by showing that the four primary descriptions were nowhere near the truth is that while, yes, perhaps the details become insignificant, one of those details might be whether Jesus was even dead at all (FTR, I discount this because even had he lived, he would not, by the conditions required--the non-divinity of Jesus--have been in any condition to go anywhere or be seen by anyone), or else the possibility that the tomb was ever occupied. Or that the tomb existed. Or that the tale of the finding of his tomb empty isn't a literary convenience. And so forth.

I wanted to mention, of a specific set of details--namely, when the Disciples fail to recognize Resurrected Jesus--that, had I my druthers, and the Bible was read with some literary license, I would assert that the point of that failure to recognize is in itself a lesson: Faith showed these Disciples the identity.

Faith--therein lies the secret. Or so says I for now. See, one problem I have is that I'm technically not obliged to believe any particular thing--for context: in order to keep "an open mind" I must also accept the possibility that Jesus has nothing to do with the Divine secrets of the Universe. But when I apply what I've learned of Christianity, of Christ, and of the Universe created by God (that is, all I've ever learned that has anything at all to do with Christ, and that includes comparative aspects of other religions), I see a much-less-than-literal interpretation serving the Bible, and the execution of the principles contained therein, best.

(Honestly, m'dear, I have absolutely no bloody idea what it is with me and the word therein of late. I'd say it has to do with reading too much Salinger, but that primarily affects my sentence length and liberal abuse of parenthetic notes.)

Just as it was the faith of the Disciples to believe they were standing before their Lord, so is it the faith of the modern Christian that lends the story its socially-affective credibility. Its life-changing ability.

Okay, I'll take one more note from Salinger and add a note about the preceding paragraph; it has been several hours and several beers since I was interrupted to go get drunk. Thus, I will retire upon that broken train of thought and, should I find more compelling notes upon this subject, I will offer them. For now, I am aware of the incompleteness of the above, but hey, I'm hoping to give you an idea of the direction I'm thinking lately. Give and take ... it's bound to be a bit vague.

thanx,
Tiassa

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

 

[Lori]

Tiassa,

I really like the word therein myself.

But really dude, quit reading and just talk to Him for crying out loud, you're driving me nuts with all of your literary bs. Hey, but you know I love you, right? You just don't get it. This isn't about some literary degree or some book knowledge. If you're looking for God in a book, let me tell you before you waste a lot of time....He's not there! Tiassa, you know me, and you know damn well what I've been telling you for going on years now, would you just give it up already and talk to Him? Please? For me? *sad puppy dog eyes* This isn't theory dude, this is for real, and you know it.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

 

[Tony H2o]

Lori,

YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH !

Sorry Tiassa, but I think she just nailed it. The book worm bit won't do it for you, the on yer knees talking to Him bit might just blow your socks off and untangle some of those cobwebs of the mind.

TRIPPY TRIPPY TRIPPY ......dang I think I've caught Lori-itus.

Sorry Lori I'm in a cheeky mood, its the Friday high I get, Flash can explain.

Bye

 

[pashley]

Originally posted by tiassa:


#4--What can you show me, that is not in the Bible or derived directly from, that indicates that Jesus' tomb was "known and accessible"?

Goshy, Reverend Pash, did I do good?

thanx,
Tiassa

There is one known account. The account is that of Eusebius of Caesarea, in his Theophaniadescribing the tomb:

"The grave itself was a cave which had evidently been hewn out; a cave that had now been cut out in the rock, and which had experienced (the reception of) no other body. For it was necessary that it, which was itself a wonder, should have care of that corpse only. For it is astonishing to even see this rock,standing out erect, and alone on level land, and having only one cavern within it; lest had there been many, the miracle of Him that overcame death should have been obscured."

That is the only extra-Biblical citation I am aware of.

The concern you have is that the women who reported that the body was missing had mistakenly gone to the wrong tomb. Luke, Matt and Mark have these women as following Joseph and Nicodemus to Joseph's tomb; they saw where they laid him. I doubt they would forget! If they still went back to the wrong tomb, then the disciples who went to check up on the women's statement must have also gone to the wrong tomb. We may be certain, however, that Jewish authorities, who asked for a Roman guard to be stationed at the tomb to prevent Jesus' body from being stolen, would not have been mistaken about the location. Nor would the Roman guards, for they were there! Don't forget, the Jews had every interest in parading around Christ's dead body. "See, He is dead. This was not the Messiah!" But that didn't happen.

If the resurrection-claim was merely because of a geographical mistake, the Jewish authorities would have lost no time in producing the body from the proper tomb, thus effectively quenching for all time any rumor resurrection.

Also, Joseph of Arimathea, would have been quick to check this out, as it was his Tomb Christ was placed in. John, Luke, Mark and Matt name the same man.

Additionally, if they had gone to the wrong tomb, they found empty wrappings freshly covered in embalming spices, which begs the question, "What happened to that body?"

Does this satsfy you that the correct tomb was checked?


------------------
"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley

 

[Tiassa]

Lori & Tony--

Would it be fair to say that, for instance, the Inquisitors had it wrong? There's actually a point that doesn't focus specifically on the evils of the Inquisitions. But--did the Inquisitors have it right or wrong? Personally, I assert quite heartily that they had it wrong. Now, hold on to that idea.

quit reading and just talk to Him for crying out loud, you're driving me nuts with all of your literary bs. Hey, but you know I love you, right? You just don't get it. This isn't about some literary degree or some book knowledge. If you're looking for God in a book, let me tell you before you waste a lot of time....He's not there!

and

The book worm bit won't do it for you, the on yer knees talking to Him bit might just blow your socks off and untangle some of those cobwebs of the mind.

Now ... y'both are making the assumption that I am searching for God in the books.

Now, what has that to do with the Inquisitors? Well, if I don't try to figure out what happened to make those wrong things happen, what is my chance of repeating them?

You both know me well enough (sorry to be spinning that backatcha Lori) to know that this is a constant point that I harp on--the repetition of past errors.

So, perhaps the bookworm bit doesn't do it, but it at least keeps me from acting as poorly as Mabon's OCA, the Schlafly Ministry, and all of the other wrong things that alleged Christians do which infuriate many of us so much. I mean, really, Lori, would it be "acceptable" in any form if I believed the old American mistake that it was the "Christian" thing to do to keep dark-skinned persons illiterate? Without history, without the record, there is no reason to believe that a Black American should be worth any more tha 60% of a white person. Now--spending all those times in books doesn't tell me how it feels to be part of history, but, having studied it, I'm not going to be experiencing myself making that kind of philosophical fool of myself.

Really, I could go forth believing, as did some of the Apostolic Fathers, that when I become a Christian, I become a new form of organism that is entitled to different rights in society. But the bookworm bit shows me what went wrong with that. I mean, Nietzche was nothing new ... he had Christians to draw his "men and supermen" from.

Sorry, but the Bible quite obviously has failed to steer its adherents en masse toward actualization of its potential. If we look to the reasons why, we might stop running around in circles. I'll remind the American Christian that presidential blowjobs or nasty words in books and movies mean nothing in the eyes of God compared to a million starving children in Africa.

And if the Bible is "all there is" for you, as pertains to God ... what's to prevent you from repeating the sins of your Christian heritage? Oh ... sorry, there is no heritage, because anything outside The Book doesn't do it, right ?

Oh ... Lori, specifically--Don't you recall our discussions about the last time I spoke with the Christian Trinity?

Talk to him, my eye, dear ... do you really think I haven't?

thanx (cheers, good day, and all of those kind wishes),
Tiassa

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

 

[Lori]

Tiassa,

You got it dude! It was wrong, wrong, wrong. The inquisition, oppression of blacks in this country, any type of discrimination and judgement poured out by man, yea, even in the name of God. It denounces ALL of these things in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Can you find in the Bible where it justifies these intentions? No, you can't. It's just not there. And yea, people can take one or two verses, completely out of context, and twist them all to hell and back to serve their own purpose. But do you know as well that in the Bible it says there is a "special place" for people who do that. Jesus will say to them "I knew you not". See?

And geez, you know, you've told me that you've talked to Him, but I just don't believe you. You haven't given me one iota of evidence that you have. You haven't told me what He said to you, or how He made you feel, or what He did to your heart. Jesus doesn't harden people's hearts, we do that ourselves in denial of Him. So what's your problem? You told me once that you two had some agreement...like He wouldn't expect you to worship Him, if you wouldn't go around preaching or some such shit. Can you just explain to me, in vocabulary that I can understand, what the hell that even means?

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

 

[Searcher]

Hi Tony,

I'm glad to see you're feeling better now! {{Hugs}} back at ya!

God is trying to get the truth through but theirs a filter of unforgiven or unrepentant sin in the way that the evil one uses to distort the image for all of us. I know I know it sounds corny and cookey but its the simplist way I can explain it.

I don't believe in the "evil one", Tony. I believe in one "power source". For example, a battery has both a positive and a negative terminal (and it wouldn't function too well as a power source if it didn't have both), but it's just one power source. Do you see what I mean?

What I'd really like to do is try to do is an equivelance kind of test to see what the right parts of the message are and to try and clear up any missconceptions or understandings.

I'm game for the "equivalence test", but who's to be the judge of what the "right parts of the message" are?

Would you guys and gals like to do that? Post up the core beliefs we hold to and compare notes? See what bits are right and how they can be explained by the character and nature of God. I'm not talking about a "but the bible says" seminar (although I will refer to it as a reference). Just an honest up front discussion about core beliefs and what they are based on? Why we believe them? What they show us about the why and the who of this mysterious "Force"

Would anyone be interested if I started a topic on this?

Go for it, Tony!


------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com

 

[Flash]

Tony,
I'm with Searcher on this one...go for it!
Sounds good to me.

 

[pashley]

Tiassa,

Anxiously awaiting your thoughts on my previous post....

------------------
"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley

 

[Tiassa]

Pash--

Presently I'm trying to establish what sources, aside from the Bible, Eusebius of Caesarea drew upon. Since he was born approximately 260 CE, I'm wondering how he knew that the tomb he described is the tomb of Christ.

As to the rest of the post, I will offer comment when I figure out the question concerning Eusebius. In the meantime, it might be extraneous.

thanx,
Tiassa

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

 

[pashley]

Originally posted by tiassa:
...I'm wondering how he knew that the tomb he described is the tomb of Christ.

Well, I think the point you are trying to make, correct me if I am wrong, is that you believe Jesus was buried in the wrong tomb, correct?

------------------
"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley

 

[Tiassa]

Pash--

No ... all I want is to demonstrate that one cannot mark this ground and say, "This is where Jesus was buried and rose again." It cannot be done. We may speculate, postulate, believe, &c., all we want, but we have yet to have a definitive link to show that this or that rock was Jesus' tomb.

It's much like the discovery of DNA in the Shroud of Turin--people are already talking about finding out if Christ has any living descendants, yet we still have to establish just whose DNA it is.

It doesn't matter if Jesus was buried in the right tomb or the wrong. The point we're arguing is meant to demonstrate that the assumption that the Bible's retelling of events is factual is something one can only take on faith.

All of it is merely designed to demonstrate the possibility that the events that establish the divinity of Jesus are to be taken on faith; one cannot establish the divinity of Jesus, or even the legitimacy of the Bible as a whole outside the faith structure.

thanx,
Tiassa

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)