Lord, Lunatic or Liar?
- Thread starter pashley
- Start date
Let us not forget the Salem Witch Trials:
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/features/97/salem/index.html
http://www.salemweb.com/memorial/default.htm
Or the trial of Joan of Arc for heresy and witchcraft:
http://www.counselquest.com/Joan-of-Arc.htm
------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/features/97/salem/index.html
http://www.salemweb.com/memorial/default.htm
Or the trial of Joan of Arc for heresy and witchcraft:
http://www.counselquest.com/Joan-of-Arc.htm
------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com
Pashley,
The actions of the early Christian church were indefensible, which is no doubt why you are left feeling so defensive when I bring it up. You want to believe that Christianity is "The Way", but you know its bloody history at least as well as I do, I'm sure.
If it makes you feel any better, Pash, Christianity is not the only religion with blood on its hands.
------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com
Searcher,
What exactly are you trying to say?
I went to the site you posted regarding the inquisition and througherly read it. It was not condoning the inquisition but pointing out that it not only affected the innocent but true believers also. It actually gives accounts of the atrocities visited on them also.
If your beef is with religion then yes I understand what you mean, the RC church has blotted its record book big time, as has just about every religion Christian or otherwise and including paganism throughout history, as have I in the way I lived and as have we all. But as I and many others who place their faith solely in Christ as the way of salvation and not organised religion, as we have asked time and again please see past what people have done and try to see who and what the real character and nature of God is. We as humans who devise, scheme, manipulate and attach each other rarely show the honest truth in out actions.
Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm continually hearing the same record playing about God and people making assumptions about Him based on past atrocities, based on past history of said religions or branches of said religions. Based on what men who make claims of serving God have done and not on what is truly shown in God's word if we honestly want to find it. The very truth of who He is and what He has done. Based on their mutual agreement of their views, but sadly I don't see anyone looking past the superficial and understanding that we are humans and as humans we all stuff up. We all have fallen short past, present and strike me pink in the future also. Give it another 100 years and I'm sure they'll be raving on about the atrocities of God in this century, its human nature to blame everyone but ourselves for the wrongs inflicted and to look for a scape goat. Its just way to convenient and easy to say ill of someone when we in reality have absolutely no idea of who they really are or why the do what they do and for what reasons they do it. AGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!
You may have noticed that this is burning me up a bit
I just don't understand why people just keep ignoring who God really is?????? Its got me absolutely flabbergasted, I keep asking Lord am I telling them the wrong things? Lord am I not listening properly? Lord am I exasperating them? Lord am I taking their attention away from you?
You all out there who know me in this place know that I have purposely not tried to engage in argumentative discussion, I have continually sought to try to show and explain who He is. Have I confused you by doing this? Have I made Him foreign to you? Or have I tried to reconcile to you who He is? Have I tried to show you that regardless of how far the majority of Christians may label you to be from God that He, God Himself goes beyond our stereotypical pigeon holing and wants you regardless of what your into TO KNOW AND UNDERSTAND WHO HE IS!!!!!!!!!! He wants to know so that the truth will be see and salvation's gift will not be foreign to you.
So what's the go? Why is it when I start to think maybe they are starting to see, maybe they are understanding, why is it I find thing right back at square one? Why do I see the same old, same old excuses being used time and again with every new Christian face that shows up? ARE ANY OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS PLACE AT ALL SERIOUS ABOUT WANTING TO UNDERSTAND???? Or are we all happy to walk around like the three wise monkeys? Myself included.
I sometimes feel so tired and drained by all this, yet at the same time I can see how the Lord has used some of you without you even knowing to draw me deeper into His truth. Sometimes I wonder what God needs to do, what does He need to do to make us understand. He has already given His most precious thing for us, His very life. And yet, me included, we so often do not take the time to try and understand what has happened. Why is it we don't see? Why do we refuse to acknowledge the truth when all God wants is for our best? I have been around the block on more than one occasion regarding this, if I have not explained or show clearly then forgive me, my frustration should probably be at myself than others.
I just wish I knew how to paint the picture that needs to be painted so that all in this place could see that God is not far off, so that all could see what has been done from Adam to Christ to the close of time. How God had set in place a perfect creation, a creation that was made to last throughout eternity. A creation that has been held captive to death since the fall and now groans and labours under the weight of sin and death. How God set about a way of salvation for fallen creation with Man and woman at the head. How He set about that plan from the day that He made garments for His fallen image, to protect them from the error of their decision. How He loved them and even in their shame cared for them. How He protected all who cried out to Him for help throughout the pages of history. How He honoured those who honoured Him and made it their quest, made it their hearts decision to follow Him and even in death to serve Him, He abandoned them not. How He established a nation that was to be to the world the example of what a right relationship with God meant. How He established this through the faith of one man, Abraham. And how from the line of his descendants God Himself would one day bring forth the way of salvation for all humanity and creation. How God loved and protected this people for the sake of that plan and according to His covenant with Abraham. How He established through Moses the law that would be their rod and staff to guide them into righteousness, to protect them in love from the unseen so long as they dwelt in it. The unseen being the attacks of the evil one in an effort to annihilate God purpose and plan. How God moved sovereignly against any that sought to destroy the one and only way of salvation, how He moved and at the same time did not allow His very character and nature to be compromised. How in the fullness of time God brought forth a baby in a manger who would be they very fulfilment of all His work with mankind, who would fulfil every word, every promise, everything when that child become a man and died three decades on. Died upon a tree alone and covered in the very guilt of all mankind, yet because He died innocent, because He died holy, because He layed bare His life as one without sin death had no authority over Him, He rose again!
And when He arose He conquered the very thing that has held man in captivity since the dawn of creation and the fall of man, death itself. By doing so He became the first born of many who believe in Him, by doing so He made straight the way of salvation. By doing this Jesus brought forth a way of restoration for all mankind, even all of creation.
You wiccans in this place have the opinion that we as Christians have limited or no understanding of your beliefs, yet you are not much different than us. We all cry out to be one, we all cry out to be restored. You call the earth mother, you call the moon sister, you call the sun father and you seek to be in that place of oneness with them. Do you think that I don't hear your hearts cry? Do you honestly think that God almighty the creator or every element, every atom, every electron, every single fibre of your being does not hear your desire? The very same cry that echoed forth from Adam and Eve when they hid themselves from God? Their cry of being that which they once were? To be restored. To be at one with all of creation and their creator. To have the communion they once had with Him made whole. But the very same thing that separated them from Him in the garden is the very same reason that you do not see. They sough to make their own way, they sought to follow their own path, they sought find a way outside of the way laid down by their creator. And likewise we as humans today still do the same, we still have the exact same desire, to be restored to be one. Yet we so often try to do it our way rather than the way that the Father, the creator of us who knows beyond our knowledge, who sees beyond our vision, who understands beyond our understanding.............. we try to do it our way and we forsake His way, a way that He gave His only Son to achieve. It was the only way to conquer the curse we live under. The curse of knowing that a part of us is missing, the curse of knowing that death is an obstacle that none can overcome on their own. And even in today's world the truth and the voice of His entire purpose and plan becomes dimmer and dimmer as we are faced with a flood of delusions, a deluge of half truths and a twisted and contorted understanding of who God really is, what His true character and nature are and why He has carried out what He has.
So why do I ask why? When if I stop and consider long enough I truly know the answers.
All I can tell you is that He is not what you consider Him to be, but how I show you and others the truth of this beyond words on a page I have no idea.
Oh Lord, my God, my King.
You alone hold the answer to the questions of the heart, you alone as my rock and refuge can answer my hearts cry for the truth to be seen, the truth of who you are. And as I wait on you in the early hours of the day for the people of this place hear my heart cry with words I can not speak, that they may know you.
Amen
Goodbye
Tony H2o
[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited June 15, 2000).]
What exactly are you trying to say?
I went to the site you posted regarding the inquisition and througherly read it. It was not condoning the inquisition but pointing out that it not only affected the innocent but true believers also. It actually gives accounts of the atrocities visited on them also.
If your beef is with religion then yes I understand what you mean, the RC church has blotted its record book big time, as has just about every religion Christian or otherwise and including paganism throughout history, as have I in the way I lived and as have we all. But as I and many others who place their faith solely in Christ as the way of salvation and not organised religion, as we have asked time and again please see past what people have done and try to see who and what the real character and nature of God is. We as humans who devise, scheme, manipulate and attach each other rarely show the honest truth in out actions.
Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm continually hearing the same record playing about God and people making assumptions about Him based on past atrocities, based on past history of said religions or branches of said religions. Based on what men who make claims of serving God have done and not on what is truly shown in God's word if we honestly want to find it. The very truth of who He is and what He has done. Based on their mutual agreement of their views, but sadly I don't see anyone looking past the superficial and understanding that we are humans and as humans we all stuff up. We all have fallen short past, present and strike me pink in the future also. Give it another 100 years and I'm sure they'll be raving on about the atrocities of God in this century, its human nature to blame everyone but ourselves for the wrongs inflicted and to look for a scape goat. Its just way to convenient and easy to say ill of someone when we in reality have absolutely no idea of who they really are or why the do what they do and for what reasons they do it. AGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!
You may have noticed that this is burning me up a bit
I just don't understand why people just keep ignoring who God really is?????? Its got me absolutely flabbergasted, I keep asking Lord am I telling them the wrong things? Lord am I not listening properly? Lord am I exasperating them? Lord am I taking their attention away from you?
You all out there who know me in this place know that I have purposely not tried to engage in argumentative discussion, I have continually sought to try to show and explain who He is. Have I confused you by doing this? Have I made Him foreign to you? Or have I tried to reconcile to you who He is? Have I tried to show you that regardless of how far the majority of Christians may label you to be from God that He, God Himself goes beyond our stereotypical pigeon holing and wants you regardless of what your into TO KNOW AND UNDERSTAND WHO HE IS!!!!!!!!!! He wants to know so that the truth will be see and salvation's gift will not be foreign to you.
So what's the go? Why is it when I start to think maybe they are starting to see, maybe they are understanding, why is it I find thing right back at square one? Why do I see the same old, same old excuses being used time and again with every new Christian face that shows up? ARE ANY OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS PLACE AT ALL SERIOUS ABOUT WANTING TO UNDERSTAND???? Or are we all happy to walk around like the three wise monkeys? Myself included.
I sometimes feel so tired and drained by all this, yet at the same time I can see how the Lord has used some of you without you even knowing to draw me deeper into His truth. Sometimes I wonder what God needs to do, what does He need to do to make us understand. He has already given His most precious thing for us, His very life. And yet, me included, we so often do not take the time to try and understand what has happened. Why is it we don't see? Why do we refuse to acknowledge the truth when all God wants is for our best? I have been around the block on more than one occasion regarding this, if I have not explained or show clearly then forgive me, my frustration should probably be at myself than others.
I just wish I knew how to paint the picture that needs to be painted so that all in this place could see that God is not far off, so that all could see what has been done from Adam to Christ to the close of time. How God had set in place a perfect creation, a creation that was made to last throughout eternity. A creation that has been held captive to death since the fall and now groans and labours under the weight of sin and death. How God set about a way of salvation for fallen creation with Man and woman at the head. How He set about that plan from the day that He made garments for His fallen image, to protect them from the error of their decision. How He loved them and even in their shame cared for them. How He protected all who cried out to Him for help throughout the pages of history. How He honoured those who honoured Him and made it their quest, made it their hearts decision to follow Him and even in death to serve Him, He abandoned them not. How He established a nation that was to be to the world the example of what a right relationship with God meant. How He established this through the faith of one man, Abraham. And how from the line of his descendants God Himself would one day bring forth the way of salvation for all humanity and creation. How God loved and protected this people for the sake of that plan and according to His covenant with Abraham. How He established through Moses the law that would be their rod and staff to guide them into righteousness, to protect them in love from the unseen so long as they dwelt in it. The unseen being the attacks of the evil one in an effort to annihilate God purpose and plan. How God moved sovereignly against any that sought to destroy the one and only way of salvation, how He moved and at the same time did not allow His very character and nature to be compromised. How in the fullness of time God brought forth a baby in a manger who would be they very fulfilment of all His work with mankind, who would fulfil every word, every promise, everything when that child become a man and died three decades on. Died upon a tree alone and covered in the very guilt of all mankind, yet because He died innocent, because He died holy, because He layed bare His life as one without sin death had no authority over Him, He rose again!
And when He arose He conquered the very thing that has held man in captivity since the dawn of creation and the fall of man, death itself. By doing so He became the first born of many who believe in Him, by doing so He made straight the way of salvation. By doing this Jesus brought forth a way of restoration for all mankind, even all of creation.
You wiccans in this place have the opinion that we as Christians have limited or no understanding of your beliefs, yet you are not much different than us. We all cry out to be one, we all cry out to be restored. You call the earth mother, you call the moon sister, you call the sun father and you seek to be in that place of oneness with them. Do you think that I don't hear your hearts cry? Do you honestly think that God almighty the creator or every element, every atom, every electron, every single fibre of your being does not hear your desire? The very same cry that echoed forth from Adam and Eve when they hid themselves from God? Their cry of being that which they once were? To be restored. To be at one with all of creation and their creator. To have the communion they once had with Him made whole. But the very same thing that separated them from Him in the garden is the very same reason that you do not see. They sough to make their own way, they sought to follow their own path, they sought find a way outside of the way laid down by their creator. And likewise we as humans today still do the same, we still have the exact same desire, to be restored to be one. Yet we so often try to do it our way rather than the way that the Father, the creator of us who knows beyond our knowledge, who sees beyond our vision, who understands beyond our understanding.............. we try to do it our way and we forsake His way, a way that He gave His only Son to achieve. It was the only way to conquer the curse we live under. The curse of knowing that a part of us is missing, the curse of knowing that death is an obstacle that none can overcome on their own. And even in today's world the truth and the voice of His entire purpose and plan becomes dimmer and dimmer as we are faced with a flood of delusions, a deluge of half truths and a twisted and contorted understanding of who God really is, what His true character and nature are and why He has carried out what He has.
So why do I ask why? When if I stop and consider long enough I truly know the answers.
All I can tell you is that He is not what you consider Him to be, but how I show you and others the truth of this beyond words on a page I have no idea.
Oh Lord, my God, my King.
You alone hold the answer to the questions of the heart, you alone as my rock and refuge can answer my hearts cry for the truth to be seen, the truth of who you are. And as I wait on you in the early hours of the day for the people of this place hear my heart cry with words I can not speak, that they may know you.
Amen
Goodbye
Tony H2o
[This message has been edited by Tony H2o (edited June 15, 2000).]
Tony, Tony, Tony!! Settle down there, pal! Here, have a seat, take a deep breath, okay? Whew! You doing okay???
Feeling a little better? Take another deep breath anyway.
Let me start halfway through your post,
"You wiccans in this place have the opinion that we as Christians have limited or no understanding of your beliefs..."
Yes, this is true Tony, I do believe that the majority of Christians are ignorant of what witchcraft in general and Wicca in particular really is. How could you not be when you are fed lies by both general society and by visible "figureheads" of your own religion? Anyway, I'm not technically a Wiccan, but close enough.
"...yet you are not much different than us."
This I agree with whole-heartedly. This is in fact something witches try to point out to Christians all the time, I'm very glad you percieve this to be true!
"You call the earth mother, you call the moon sister, you call the sun father and you seek to be in that place of oneness with them"
This is not quite accurate. The earth and the moon are BOTH symbols of the Mother, but you're close. There's no "place of oneness" though, we ARE one with them right NOW. We might lose knowledge of that and feel seperate from them, but that is an illusion. We are of Them, we ARE Them, in a very literal sense.
"Do you honestly think that God almighty the creator or every element, every atom, every electron, every single fibre of your being does not hear your desire? "
I don't believe God created everything, personally, so I would have to say yes, I don't think he hears me. Because I don't think that's who or what or how God really is. Sorry Tony.
"All I can tell you is that He is not what you consider Him to be, but how I show you and others the truth of this beyond words on a page I have no idea"
Well, Tony, I think He is not what you consider Him to be either, but I don't know how to show that to you either.
I understand your frustration, Tony. I feel the same way when I am talking to someone about Paganism and all they can talk about is animal sacrifice and these power-hungry fools running around today tarnishing that beautiful 5-pointed star by turning it upside down and claiming it as a Satanic symbol.
Going backwards;
"I sometimes feel so tired and drained by all this, yet at the same time I can see how the Lord has used some of you without you even knowing to draw me deeper into His truth"
Y'know that's kinda funny in a way. Not funny ha-ha but funny peculiar. There was a woman who posted on here very briefly called "lady o'the green", and she posted something very similar. She was a witch (not sure if she was Wiccan or what though), and she entered the debate and would thank the Christians for helping her take a fresh look at her own faith. Her faith too was strengthened by debate. So I guess it's a two way street! At the time I was just struggling with finding my footing on whatever path it was forming under my feet, and the way she presented herself impressed me. You remind me of her sometimes, Tony. Though you are on "the other side of the fence", you two seem to have similar strength in your faiths that enables you to calmly debate and not take things personally. Something I am working on very hard for myself. I think I've improved, but I know I have a long way to go yet.
Going back to the "ignorance" bit, I (again) do think most people in general ARE ignorant of the true nature of what us witches do and are. But I don't hold it against people. What I do hold against them are their negative actions taken in ignorance. I will never ridicule or turn away someone asking honest questions. I enjoy educating people about my religion, not to convert them, but so they can understand that I am not a monster secretly wanting to boil their baby son into a flying ointment, or whatever horrid B.S. they have been told. I realize that I am ignorant of many, many religions, and I certainally don't expect the general populace to be educated on all the world's religions. Heck, most folks don't know a whole lot about their OWN religions, don't you agree?? I try to keep this in mind when posting here, and try to ask questions rather than jump to conclusions. You know this, right Tony?? I know I'm not perfect, and I'm sure I have jumped when I should have questioned more than once, but I do make an honest effort to hear what you have to say. Especially YOU in particular Tony, because I like you, at least what part of you you've shown to us here on this board. But just because I listen doesn't mean I believe. Just as when I explain my faith to you, I don't expect you to believe either.
YOU are NOT the reason I don't believe in the same God you do, okay?? I wanted to make sure that's clear. I don't want you feeling like you've failed anyone because you haven't converted me. I cannot be converted by outside sources, you should understand that. I follow my heart, I have learned the hard way that this is the best guide for me. The few times I have disregarded its warnings I have ended up in extreme danger (once all the way to the brink of death itself, I kid you not), or extreme unblance and emotional unrest. My heart has guided me to the Natural Couple (as I like to call them), and for now, this is where I will be.
Does this make sense to you Tony?? If I were to ignore my heart and follow your belief system, I would be untrue to myself. I would not be happy. I would not feel blessed. I would not feel God's love. I would feel like a charlatan. I would feel disrespectful by reciting prayers to a God that doesn't mean anything to me. I would feel dishonest speaking to other parishoners. I don't like to think about how I would become, I don't think a Christian MoonCat is a happy MoonCat. I am not comfortable with your God, Tony, he is not for me. I just can't put it any plainer than that!!
I do still enjoy talking to you. I am interested in your thoughts about Christianity, but I must make sure you aren't talking to me about it solely to convert me, I don't want to waste your time. I certainally don't want you to go away, but I don't want you to be upset because I'm not a Christian.
Okay Tony, enough outta me for now. Are you feeling a little better? I hope so.
Feeling a little better? Take another deep breath anyway.
Let me start halfway through your post,
"You wiccans in this place have the opinion that we as Christians have limited or no understanding of your beliefs..."
Yes, this is true Tony, I do believe that the majority of Christians are ignorant of what witchcraft in general and Wicca in particular really is. How could you not be when you are fed lies by both general society and by visible "figureheads" of your own religion? Anyway, I'm not technically a Wiccan, but close enough.
"...yet you are not much different than us."
This I agree with whole-heartedly. This is in fact something witches try to point out to Christians all the time, I'm very glad you percieve this to be true!
"You call the earth mother, you call the moon sister, you call the sun father and you seek to be in that place of oneness with them"
This is not quite accurate. The earth and the moon are BOTH symbols of the Mother, but you're close. There's no "place of oneness" though, we ARE one with them right NOW. We might lose knowledge of that and feel seperate from them, but that is an illusion. We are of Them, we ARE Them, in a very literal sense.
"Do you honestly think that God almighty the creator or every element, every atom, every electron, every single fibre of your being does not hear your desire? "
I don't believe God created everything, personally, so I would have to say yes, I don't think he hears me. Because I don't think that's who or what or how God really is. Sorry Tony.
"All I can tell you is that He is not what you consider Him to be, but how I show you and others the truth of this beyond words on a page I have no idea"
Well, Tony, I think He is not what you consider Him to be either, but I don't know how to show that to you either.
I understand your frustration, Tony. I feel the same way when I am talking to someone about Paganism and all they can talk about is animal sacrifice and these power-hungry fools running around today tarnishing that beautiful 5-pointed star by turning it upside down and claiming it as a Satanic symbol.
Going backwards;
"I sometimes feel so tired and drained by all this, yet at the same time I can see how the Lord has used some of you without you even knowing to draw me deeper into His truth"
Y'know that's kinda funny in a way. Not funny ha-ha but funny peculiar. There was a woman who posted on here very briefly called "lady o'the green", and she posted something very similar. She was a witch (not sure if she was Wiccan or what though), and she entered the debate and would thank the Christians for helping her take a fresh look at her own faith. Her faith too was strengthened by debate. So I guess it's a two way street! At the time I was just struggling with finding my footing on whatever path it was forming under my feet, and the way she presented herself impressed me. You remind me of her sometimes, Tony. Though you are on "the other side of the fence", you two seem to have similar strength in your faiths that enables you to calmly debate and not take things personally. Something I am working on very hard for myself. I think I've improved, but I know I have a long way to go yet.
Going back to the "ignorance" bit, I (again) do think most people in general ARE ignorant of the true nature of what us witches do and are. But I don't hold it against people. What I do hold against them are their negative actions taken in ignorance. I will never ridicule or turn away someone asking honest questions. I enjoy educating people about my religion, not to convert them, but so they can understand that I am not a monster secretly wanting to boil their baby son into a flying ointment, or whatever horrid B.S. they have been told. I realize that I am ignorant of many, many religions, and I certainally don't expect the general populace to be educated on all the world's religions. Heck, most folks don't know a whole lot about their OWN religions, don't you agree?? I try to keep this in mind when posting here, and try to ask questions rather than jump to conclusions. You know this, right Tony?? I know I'm not perfect, and I'm sure I have jumped when I should have questioned more than once, but I do make an honest effort to hear what you have to say. Especially YOU in particular Tony, because I like you, at least what part of you you've shown to us here on this board. But just because I listen doesn't mean I believe. Just as when I explain my faith to you, I don't expect you to believe either.
YOU are NOT the reason I don't believe in the same God you do, okay?? I wanted to make sure that's clear. I don't want you feeling like you've failed anyone because you haven't converted me. I cannot be converted by outside sources, you should understand that. I follow my heart, I have learned the hard way that this is the best guide for me. The few times I have disregarded its warnings I have ended up in extreme danger (once all the way to the brink of death itself, I kid you not), or extreme unblance and emotional unrest. My heart has guided me to the Natural Couple (as I like to call them), and for now, this is where I will be.
Does this make sense to you Tony?? If I were to ignore my heart and follow your belief system, I would be untrue to myself. I would not be happy. I would not feel blessed. I would not feel God's love. I would feel like a charlatan. I would feel disrespectful by reciting prayers to a God that doesn't mean anything to me. I would feel dishonest speaking to other parishoners. I don't like to think about how I would become, I don't think a Christian MoonCat is a happy MoonCat. I am not comfortable with your God, Tony, he is not for me. I just can't put it any plainer than that!!
I do still enjoy talking to you. I am interested in your thoughts about Christianity, but I must make sure you aren't talking to me about it solely to convert me, I don't want to waste your time. I certainally don't want you to go away, but I don't want you to be upset because I'm not a Christian.
Okay Tony, enough outta me for now. Are you feeling a little better? I hope so.
Searcher,
Man, how many times do we really need to discuss the sins of the Christian church? And the answer issssss....as many as it takes until you understand! This is how it is guys....Satan works within organized religion to the point that I almost want nothing to do with it. But honestly, organized religion is like anything else in this world. Created and operated by human beings, who are sinners by nature. Did you know that what we see as organized religion is NOT what Jesus calls "the church" in the Bible? The church in the Bible is the entire group of people who are actual believers, and that are born again in the spirit, and have faith in Jesus Christ. These people may or may not participate in what we know as organized religion, or what OUR definition of the church is, A church. Does this make sense?
And don't get me wrong, I watch my evangelists on TBN every Sunday, and I thank God for SOME of them, and SOME of them gross me out soooooo bad, that I can't even watch or listen. But even the best preacher, minister, born again Christian, or any human being makes mistakes, and has the wrong ideas about some things. And SOME don't even have a relationship with Jesus at all, and once you would get to know Him, it would be a lot more obvious to you, like it is to me.
It always, always, always boils down to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. One that is begun, and fostered, and maintained IN YOUR HEART, which is our word for our soul. For example, have you ever heard of any Christian, or anyone for that matter who shares my view of homosexuality? That the only problem with it is what boils down to gender discrimination, and not one other thing is wrong with it? That it all boils down to one's intentions, and not the act? Do you think I got that from an evangelist, or from "the church"? Hell no! Do you know who told me that? Jesus told me that.
Tony will be ok, don't worry. I've been where he's at right now before. He's frustrated because it seems that no matter how hard he tries, you guys just refuse to get it. But Tony, if you're frustrated, then just take a look at some of Flash's recent posts. And the rest of you as well. Look back at some of her old, old, old ones, and then look now. THAT my friends, is an answer to MY prayers. Now, if that's not proof of the power of faith in Jesus Christ, then I don't know what is. Any thoughts on that?
Listen, you guys know just from personal experience, just like I do, that your own intent is sometimes very hard to examine objectively, and is a bit cloudy sometimes. It is the easiest thing in the world to lose sight of God, to lack faith, and to let that personal relationship slide, and all in the name of our own humanity and egos. It seems that we cannot help getting distracted by the things of this world, which when it is all said and done, amount to NOTHING. And this is exactly what happens in organized religion as well. As a matter of fact, there is no doubt that some people organize and use religion as a means of power and control, and don't EVER have a relationship with Jesus, and therefore, are not born again, and have NO FAITH. You can look at organized religion, just like you can look at anything else in this world, and you can identify right vs wrong within intent. You just have to know where to look. And you know that where to look is in your soul. That's where Jesus is, waiting for you to come and join Him, and talk to Him, and learn from Him. He's there whether you like it or not, you might as well say hi.
Listen, I've said it before and I'll keep saying it til I draw my last breath...if you want to know the truth about Jesus, all you have to do is SINCERELY ask Him for it. Humility and intent is soooooooooooo KEY. And this isn't just some garbly gook that I regurgitated from some preacher, or from the Bible. It is TRUE, 100% true, just like gravity; it's a law. So test it; I dare ya. If you want to know Jesus, He's right there with you all of the time. Just reach out to Him with sincerety and humility, and He will speak to your heart. I've told you guys this before, but I wanted to reiterate what Jesus "feels" like, because it's the most amazing feeling that I've ever had in my life.
When I first met Him, and after time after time after time, throughout my whole life, of trying in vain, I had actually gotten to the point of humility, in which I was just broken, broken, broken. Unfortunately, we humans are soooooo stubborn and steadfast, worshiping our own humanity and ego, that that's what it takes to get us to the real truth. But anyway, He felt like a long lost father, that I felt like I knew before, like at one time way way long ago, we had been soooooo close, but it was like I forgot about Him since. And it's like all my life, He was there with me, but I just couldn't see Him, and I could hear Him speaking to my heart, but I didn't realize it WAS Him. Is this making any sense??? Well, if you can imagine not knowing your real father, and carrying around that sense of loss and loneliness your whole life, and then opening up your eyes one day, and there he is, with open arms, and the most unconditional love for you that you could even imagine, and then you find out that He's always had this love for you, and has always been there, you just didn't know it. It was overwhelming. You think Hallmark commercials are bad, geez. Is this making any sense?
And you know, as hard as I try, and as much as I believe in Him, I still struggle with my faith, and those damn worldly distractions. It takes a real solid effort, like nothing you've ever done in your life to keep focused on what's important. Let me give you an example of something that's happened to me recently, and see if you understand what I mean. You guys know about all of the problems I've been through lately regarding my divorce, and then that I just got dumped by Superman right? Well let me explain what happened. This is kind of trippy. After all I've been through this past year, I prayed to God that He would give me a man who has the right intentions toward me, and would love me for who I was, and not what he could get out of me for nothing you know? Someone who loved God like I do, and had a good heart, and that I could trust with mine. I also told Him that I did not under any circumstances, trust my own judgement at all. So I asked Him if He would just plop this guy down right on my front porch for me, and make it soooooo obvious to me, that I couldn't make a mistake about who he was. Within a matter of DAYS, JJ showed up to put my roof on. By the time he was done, I KNEW that he was the one that God sent to me. It was OBVIOUS. Yes, even to me, as dumb as I am. LOL! This guy's heart is amazing. And his intentions are astoundingly pure. I was so happy. So we started dating, and he is the kind of guy who over-commits himself with the best of intentions, because he kind of wants to be everything to everyone you know? And then when he can't get to it all, it comes back and bites him in the butt. Well, because of that, and just the fact that he's so young I think, he made a few dates with me, and then had to cancel at the last minute. And what did I do? Me of little faith, what did I do? I doubted his intentions, and jumped to the wrong conclusions, and immediately assumed that he was dicking me around. And BOOM, he was gone. Just like magic. And I see now that in doubting his intentions, I was doubting God, and I was doubting that He answered my prayers. Now I have been through soooo much heartache, and have prayed sooooo hard, and I KNOW, because of many things that I've witnessed in my life that Jesus is REAL, and He's REALLY there, and when He says He's gonna do something, it's already done. And even knowing that, I STILL LAPSED IN FAITH!!!!! Can you believe that??? How stupid am I exactly? Ok, don't answer that. I'm just trying to tell you guys that faith is NOT easy. Not at all. It seems sometimes that you all are looking for some cut and dry, black and white, paint by numbers, quick fix. And I'm sorry to be the one to tell you, it's just not that way. Hey, if any dummy out there wishes it was that easy, it's me. But it's just not.
------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 15, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 15, 2000).]
Man, how many times do we really need to discuss the sins of the Christian church? And the answer issssss....as many as it takes until you understand!
This is how it is guys....Satan works within organized religion to the point that I almost want nothing to do with it. But honestly, organized religion is like anything else in this world. Created and operated by human beings, who are sinners by nature. Did you know that what we see as organized religion is NOT what Jesus calls "the church" in the Bible? The church in the Bible is the entire group of people who are actual believers, and that are born again in the spirit, and have faith in Jesus Christ. These people may or may not participate in what we know as organized religion, or what OUR definition of the church is, A church. Does this make sense?And don't get me wrong, I watch my evangelists on TBN every Sunday, and I thank God for SOME of them, and SOME of them gross me out soooooo bad, that I can't even watch or listen. But even the best preacher, minister, born again Christian, or any human being makes mistakes, and has the wrong ideas about some things. And SOME don't even have a relationship with Jesus at all, and once you would get to know Him, it would be a lot more obvious to you, like it is to me.
It always, always, always boils down to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. One that is begun, and fostered, and maintained IN YOUR HEART, which is our word for our soul. For example, have you ever heard of any Christian, or anyone for that matter who shares my view of homosexuality? That the only problem with it is what boils down to gender discrimination, and not one other thing is wrong with it? That it all boils down to one's intentions, and not the act? Do you think I got that from an evangelist, or from "the church"? Hell no! Do you know who told me that? Jesus told me that.
Tony will be ok, don't worry. I've been where he's at right now before. He's frustrated because it seems that no matter how hard he tries, you guys just refuse to get it. But Tony, if you're frustrated, then just take a look at some of Flash's recent posts. And the rest of you as well. Look back at some of her old, old, old ones, and then look now. THAT my friends, is an answer to MY prayers. Now, if that's not proof of the power of faith in Jesus Christ, then I don't know what is. Any thoughts on that?
Listen, you guys know just from personal experience, just like I do, that your own intent is sometimes very hard to examine objectively, and is a bit cloudy sometimes. It is the easiest thing in the world to lose sight of God, to lack faith, and to let that personal relationship slide, and all in the name of our own humanity and egos. It seems that we cannot help getting distracted by the things of this world, which when it is all said and done, amount to NOTHING. And this is exactly what happens in organized religion as well. As a matter of fact, there is no doubt that some people organize and use religion as a means of power and control, and don't EVER have a relationship with Jesus, and therefore, are not born again, and have NO FAITH. You can look at organized religion, just like you can look at anything else in this world, and you can identify right vs wrong within intent. You just have to know where to look. And you know that where to look is in your soul. That's where Jesus is, waiting for you to come and join Him, and talk to Him, and learn from Him. He's there whether you like it or not, you might as well say hi.
Listen, I've said it before and I'll keep saying it til I draw my last breath...if you want to know the truth about Jesus, all you have to do is SINCERELY ask Him for it. Humility and intent is soooooooooooo KEY. And this isn't just some garbly gook that I regurgitated from some preacher, or from the Bible. It is TRUE, 100% true, just like gravity; it's a law. So test it; I dare ya. If you want to know Jesus, He's right there with you all of the time. Just reach out to Him with sincerety and humility, and He will speak to your heart. I've told you guys this before, but I wanted to reiterate what Jesus "feels" like, because it's the most amazing feeling that I've ever had in my life.
When I first met Him, and after time after time after time, throughout my whole life, of trying in vain, I had actually gotten to the point of humility, in which I was just broken, broken, broken. Unfortunately, we humans are soooooo stubborn and steadfast, worshiping our own humanity and ego, that that's what it takes to get us to the real truth. But anyway, He felt like a long lost father, that I felt like I knew before, like at one time way way long ago, we had been soooooo close, but it was like I forgot about Him since. And it's like all my life, He was there with me, but I just couldn't see Him, and I could hear Him speaking to my heart, but I didn't realize it WAS Him. Is this making any sense??? Well, if you can imagine not knowing your real father, and carrying around that sense of loss and loneliness your whole life, and then opening up your eyes one day, and there he is, with open arms, and the most unconditional love for you that you could even imagine, and then you find out that He's always had this love for you, and has always been there, you just didn't know it. It was overwhelming. You think Hallmark commercials are bad, geez. Is this making any sense?
And you know, as hard as I try, and as much as I believe in Him, I still struggle with my faith, and those damn worldly distractions. It takes a real solid effort, like nothing you've ever done in your life to keep focused on what's important. Let me give you an example of something that's happened to me recently, and see if you understand what I mean. You guys know about all of the problems I've been through lately regarding my divorce, and then that I just got dumped by Superman right? Well let me explain what happened. This is kind of trippy. After all I've been through this past year, I prayed to God that He would give me a man who has the right intentions toward me, and would love me for who I was, and not what he could get out of me for nothing you know? Someone who loved God like I do, and had a good heart, and that I could trust with mine. I also told Him that I did not under any circumstances, trust my own judgement at all. So I asked Him if He would just plop this guy down right on my front porch for me, and make it soooooo obvious to me, that I couldn't make a mistake about who he was. Within a matter of DAYS, JJ showed up to put my roof on. By the time he was done, I KNEW that he was the one that God sent to me. It was OBVIOUS. Yes, even to me, as dumb as I am. LOL! This guy's heart is amazing. And his intentions are astoundingly pure. I was so happy. So we started dating, and he is the kind of guy who over-commits himself with the best of intentions, because he kind of wants to be everything to everyone you know? And then when he can't get to it all, it comes back and bites him in the butt. Well, because of that, and just the fact that he's so young I think, he made a few dates with me, and then had to cancel at the last minute. And what did I do? Me of little faith, what did I do? I doubted his intentions, and jumped to the wrong conclusions, and immediately assumed that he was dicking me around. And BOOM, he was gone. Just like magic. And I see now that in doubting his intentions, I was doubting God, and I was doubting that He answered my prayers. Now I have been through soooo much heartache, and have prayed sooooo hard, and I KNOW, because of many things that I've witnessed in my life that Jesus is REAL, and He's REALLY there, and when He says He's gonna do something, it's already done. And even knowing that, I STILL LAPSED IN FAITH!!!!! Can you believe that??? How stupid am I exactly? Ok, don't answer that. I'm just trying to tell you guys that faith is NOT easy. Not at all. It seems sometimes that you all are looking for some cut and dry, black and white, paint by numbers, quick fix. And I'm sorry to be the one to tell you, it's just not that way. Hey, if any dummy out there wishes it was that easy, it's me. But it's just not.
------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 15, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 15, 2000).]
The very first thing I did when I read Tony's post was write him an e-mail making sure he was ok. I'm happy to report that he said he is doing fine. However, MC, your post I'm sure will make him feel even better. I've said it before and I'll say it again, MC, you have a great heart!
Lori,
YES!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!
Talk about confirmation right and left!!!
This is EXACTLY what I have been learning!!!!!!!! Gotta love Him!
The personal relationship is KEY, KEY, KEY, KEY! I'm just gonna leave it at that for now. LOL
I've said it before and I'll say it again, MC, you have a great heart!Lori,
YES!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!
Talk about confirmation right and left!!!
This is EXACTLY what I have been learning!!!!!!!! Gotta love Him!
The personal relationship is KEY, KEY, KEY, KEY!
I'm just gonna leave it at that for now. LOL
Searcher
Inflammatory or not, thank you for the articles; I must give them better attention soon, but there's no excuse that I don't have a real life going right now, so I'm compelled to spend/waste (circle one) time in other ways. (Apparently stumbling down the street to get drunk is far more socially acceptable than babbling at Exosci, but I digress, and must beg your pardon as such .... )
Pash
Inflammatory or not, I would propose that such ideas are somewhat relevant. The reason for that I might best demonstrate if I borrow from Tony's post,
Now, given that the Catholic Church, which brought these events on the world, was the sole vessel to transport the message of Christ ... how has that effect affected the generations that come after? What has changed fundamentally about the original ideas of Christ through centuries of botched interpretation and execution by the only vessel to transport it? We like to think that "In the beginning ..." is the start of a pure body of words, though it has been subject to more political distortion throughout history than anything I can think of. "Lord, lunatic, or liar?" Practical Christianity, even today, does a fair job of establishing Christ as all three.
Pick any third-world African nation. Wanna go there for fun in the sun? Not really, but I don't know for sure because I've never been there. Now, is my subjective desire to not visit a war-torn, famine-wrecked, disease-weary region for a week of getaway a full-blown prejudice, or an assessment that is mine to reach based on what I see?
Consider an emigrant from one of those nations; where will he go? What if his first exposure to "America" is CNN footage of the parade in New York City? Will he want to bring his daughters to this? It's not a fair reflection of America, but if it's his primary experience, what can we say?
Consider a person seeking faith: what God shall redeem him? It seems that often, it is deemed unfair to consider the whole of the Christian effect on the world; the only appropriate method, apparently, is to abandon all else, engage Christianity, accept it as full truth, and then try to work out from there. That apparent difficulty notwithstanding, should one choose to survey the overall Christian presence in the world, what would be the sum? Does it really seem that inviting?
Watch Kathy Bates fitting South American girls for brassieres in At Play in the Fields of the Lord (I hear the novel's outstanding, too). In that scene, Christ indeed is Lord, Lunatic, and Liar.
Christianity is a huge notion in the world; why is it so difficult to attempt that vista?
thanx,
Tiassa
------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
Inflammatory or not, thank you for the articles; I must give them better attention soon, but there's no excuse that I don't have a real life going right now, so I'm compelled to spend/waste (circle one) time in other ways. (Apparently stumbling down the street to get drunk is far more socially acceptable than babbling at Exosci, but I digress, and must beg your pardon as such ....
)Pash
Inflammatory or not, I would propose that such ideas are somewhat relevant. The reason for that I might best demonstrate if I borrow from Tony's post,
Now, given that the Catholic Church, which brought these events on the world, was the sole vessel to transport the message of Christ ... how has that effect affected the generations that come after? What has changed fundamentally about the original ideas of Christ through centuries of botched interpretation and execution by the only vessel to transport it? We like to think that "In the beginning ..." is the start of a pure body of words, though it has been subject to more political distortion throughout history than anything I can think of. "Lord, lunatic, or liar?" Practical Christianity, even today, does a fair job of establishing Christ as all three.
Pick any third-world African nation. Wanna go there for fun in the sun? Not really, but I don't know for sure because I've never been there. Now, is my subjective desire to not visit a war-torn, famine-wrecked, disease-weary region for a week of getaway a full-blown prejudice, or an assessment that is mine to reach based on what I see?
Consider an emigrant from one of those nations; where will he go? What if his first exposure to "America" is CNN footage of the parade in New York City? Will he want to bring his daughters to this? It's not a fair reflection of America, but if it's his primary experience, what can we say?
Consider a person seeking faith: what God shall redeem him? It seems that often, it is deemed unfair to consider the whole of the Christian effect on the world; the only appropriate method, apparently, is to abandon all else, engage Christianity, accept it as full truth, and then try to work out from there. That apparent difficulty notwithstanding, should one choose to survey the overall Christian presence in the world, what would be the sum? Does it really seem that inviting?
Watch Kathy Bates fitting South American girls for brassieres in At Play in the Fields of the Lord (I hear the novel's outstanding, too). In that scene, Christ indeed is Lord, Lunatic, and Liar.
Christianity is a huge notion in the world; why is it so difficult to attempt that vista?
thanx,
Tiassa
------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> Pashley,
<hr>
<font color = "blue">Who do YOU say Jesus was?</font>
<hr>
The Bible (New Testament) is a long-winded explanation of the truth, for those who just don't know. Jesus is the vestige of what we all desire. In this world, what is most rare and least practiced? From what I've gathered in my limited knowledge of the Bible and of Christ, it is a very simple message that is being conveyed:
<font color = "red">Love.</font>
...for eachother
<font color = "red">Peace.</font>
...on Earth
<font color = "red">Hope.</font>
...for mankind
That which makes it holy is the message. <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif">
------------------
It's all very large.
<hr>
<font color = "blue">Who do YOU say Jesus was?</font>
<hr>
The Bible (New Testament) is a long-winded explanation of the truth, for those who just don't know. Jesus is the vestige of what we all desire. In this world, what is most rare and least practiced? From what I've gathered in my limited knowledge of the Bible and of Christ, it is a very simple message that is being conveyed:
<font color = "red">Love.</font>
...for eachother
<font color = "red">Peace.</font>
...on Earth
<font color = "red">Hope.</font>
...for mankind
That which makes it holy is the message. <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif">
------------------
It's all very large.
Lori, you still have to sell me on this intention issue.
I think when you can say "Well, it was my intent that....", you leave a loophole for people to sin. And no, I'm not obsessing about homosexuality either, but in general. I just think it is a slippery slope when we base our actions on our faulty human emotions.
I did like the rest of your post, though.
------------------
"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley
Tiassa,
Per my previous message:
"Well, then I guess I need to start with asserting, and giving evidence for, the NT's crediblity then, first? I mean, if you can't hold that the Resurrection, at least, is not factual, or is meant to convey something else, I don't know how to sway you from that. If we have to start with the validity of the Bible, we can; but I would rather get to the meat and potatoes, the Resurrection."
------------------
"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley
Per my previous message:
"Well, then I guess I need to start with asserting, and giving evidence for, the NT's crediblity then, first? I mean, if you can't hold that the Resurrection, at least, is not factual, or is meant to convey something else, I don't know how to sway you from that. If we have to start with the validity of the Bible, we can; but I would rather get to the meat and potatoes, the Resurrection."
------------------
"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley
Searcher--
I got a chance to read more of a couple of those articles; I hope to offer the perspective of Jack Cady, later today, as regards the Salem Trials.
I did get through the Fordham and Jesus-is-Lord articles on the Inquisitions. Two things to note, but simply to make a note of:
* The only justifications I can draw for the Inquisitions are political; I have not yet understood the spiritual compulsion to these events.
* The Jesus-is-Lord article I found amusing. There exists a definitive context change in the eighth paragraph, when verbs switch from past to present tense. Hence, I would ask the author of the original document to show me the prisons in which these things are happening.
And so on. However, Searcher, the point is well taken, and I, for one, like to think myself capable of reading around this. But I thought it worthy of mention.
I'm still wondering, though, how such an allegedly powerful and positive message becomes one of the most dangerous practices in the world.
We might then, respecting the form of this topic, declare Jesus to be a Lord, the instruments of His evil to be lunatics, and the academics who support them to be liars. That way, we can cover all the bases.
I think the most important aspects of reviewing the tragedies of Christendom past comes when we identify how, exactly, one justifies abuses with the Word of their God. I point to the Schalflys, Robertsons, and likewise today, who know that they cannot burn the infidel threat at the stake, and choose instead to employ politics in a desperate attempt to strangle cultural expression out of the culture. Their Lord is a lunatic; same with Lon Mabon's.
In the end, the difference between Jesus as Lord, Lunatic, or Liar, seems to depend on the beholder. God, apparently, has done his part, and it's now left to humans to figure it out. Too bad we're still blowing it, on the whole.
But, again, thank you, Searcher, for the enlightening articles. You've given me much in topic to chew on.
thanx,
Tiassa
------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
I got a chance to read more of a couple of those articles; I hope to offer the perspective of Jack Cady, later today, as regards the Salem Trials.
I did get through the Fordham and Jesus-is-Lord articles on the Inquisitions. Two things to note, but simply to make a note of:
* The only justifications I can draw for the Inquisitions are political; I have not yet understood the spiritual compulsion to these events.
* The Jesus-is-Lord article I found amusing. There exists a definitive context change in the eighth paragraph, when verbs switch from past to present tense. Hence, I would ask the author of the original document to show me the prisons in which these things are happening.
And so on. However, Searcher, the point is well taken, and I, for one, like to think myself capable of reading around this. But I thought it worthy of mention.
I'm still wondering, though, how such an allegedly powerful and positive message becomes one of the most dangerous practices in the world.
We might then, respecting the form of this topic, declare Jesus to be a Lord, the instruments of His evil to be lunatics, and the academics who support them to be liars. That way, we can cover all the bases.
I think the most important aspects of reviewing the tragedies of Christendom past comes when we identify how, exactly, one justifies abuses with the Word of their God. I point to the Schalflys, Robertsons, and likewise today, who know that they cannot burn the infidel threat at the stake, and choose instead to employ politics in a desperate attempt to strangle cultural expression out of the culture. Their Lord is a lunatic; same with Lon Mabon's.
In the end, the difference between Jesus as Lord, Lunatic, or Liar, seems to depend on the beholder. God, apparently, has done his part, and it's now left to humans to figure it out. Too bad we're still blowing it, on the whole.
But, again, thank you, Searcher, for the enlightening articles. You've given me much in topic to chew on.
thanx,
Tiassa
------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
Pash?
Let's review:
Okay.
then ...
and then ...
ya with me?
Did you get all that?
Now ...
What would you like me to say?
In fact, that's a brilliant idea. Why don't you just tell me what points of argument you're allowing, and then we can skip this silly round of "did-not, did-too". And when you're done, you can pretend you've accomplished something by preventing a debate from escaping the confines you insist on applying.
Otherwise, I recalle my favorite Rocky & Bullwinkle product, a collegiate sweatshirt: Whatsamatta U?
thanx,
Tiassa
------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
Let's review:
Okay.
then ...
and then ...
ya with me?
Did you get all that?
Now ...
What would you like me to say?
In fact, that's a brilliant idea. Why don't you just tell me what points of argument you're allowing, and then we can skip this silly round of "did-not, did-too". And when you're done, you can pretend you've accomplished something by preventing a debate from escaping the confines you insist on applying.
Otherwise, I recalle my favorite Rocky & Bullwinkle product, a collegiate sweatshirt: Whatsamatta U?
thanx,
Tiassa
------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
Tiassa,
With any historical problem you start with a frame of reference. For instance, to discuss the Civil War in the United States, one presupposes that a United States exists or existed, and that a certain conflict called the Civil War occurred. That's your frame of reference for discussion. Otherwise, why discuss the issue? The same is true with the Resurrection. To discuss the Resurrection intelligently we must assume certain items. Eight to be exact, as follows:
1. JESUS LIVED. One Jesus.
2. JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED. As in, on the cross.
3. JESUS WAS CONSIDERED DEAD. If he wasn't dead, no Resurrectioncould occur; only ressuciatation (sp?). Conversley, if the Resurrection did happen, he necessarily had to die.
4. JESUS WAS BURIED IN A KNOWN AND ACCESSIBLE TOMB. As opposed to being spirited away to an unknow location.
5. JESUS WAS PREACHED RAISED AND ASCENDED. The Gospels say he not only was ressurected, but ascended to Heaven.
6. JEWISH LEADERS WERE MOTIVATED TO DISPROVE. This is a conclusion based on the facts and known circumstances, but the Jewish leaders at Jerusalem were more concerned to disprove the preaching of a Resurrection than we are two-thousand years later. They had more at stake. The preaching of the message at that time created riots and could have cost the Jewish leaders their reputations, their positions, their economic livelihoods and even their lives. What would happen to you if you were believed responsible for the death of someone worshiped as God? Disproving the preaching that Jesus rose from the dead was a matter of great importance to them. So much so, that:
7. DISCIPLES WERE PERSECUTED. All records indicate that the early Apostles and Disciples were imprisoned, tortured, and suffered greatly simply for saying Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven. The Jewish leaders being more concerned, more involved, and with more at stake, persecuted the New Testament preachers for spreading that message.
8. THE TOMB WAS EMPTY. The tomb had to be empty, because if Jesus was buried in a known accessible tomb, and if the Jewish leaders were more concerned to disprove the preaching than you or I are today, they would have checked the tomb. If a body was there, they would not have had to persecute the preachers. They could have proven the preachers liars by simply displaying the body. Another reason to assume the tomb was empty is because no one knows for sure where it is today. You can find ancient Old Testament characters with certainty. But nobody for centuries even wondered about Jesus' tomb, so it was forgotten and the exact site was lost in history. Why? Because who cared about an empty tomb back then? The people of the day followed a risen Savior, not a dead one.
If you agree to those predicates, we can begin; if not, we're back to establishing the vailidity and reliabliity of the New Testament.
Now, with those predicates, can you give me one refutation? I want only one, so we can not get diluted by other points. You have made a few refutations, I will ask you to just pick one, please
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"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley
With any historical problem you start with a frame of reference. For instance, to discuss the Civil War in the United States, one presupposes that a United States exists or existed, and that a certain conflict called the Civil War occurred. That's your frame of reference for discussion. Otherwise, why discuss the issue? The same is true with the Resurrection. To discuss the Resurrection intelligently we must assume certain items. Eight to be exact, as follows:
1. JESUS LIVED. One Jesus.
2. JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED. As in, on the cross.
3. JESUS WAS CONSIDERED DEAD. If he wasn't dead, no Resurrectioncould occur; only ressuciatation (sp?). Conversley, if the Resurrection did happen, he necessarily had to die.
4. JESUS WAS BURIED IN A KNOWN AND ACCESSIBLE TOMB. As opposed to being spirited away to an unknow location.
5. JESUS WAS PREACHED RAISED AND ASCENDED. The Gospels say he not only was ressurected, but ascended to Heaven.
6. JEWISH LEADERS WERE MOTIVATED TO DISPROVE. This is a conclusion based on the facts and known circumstances, but the Jewish leaders at Jerusalem were more concerned to disprove the preaching of a Resurrection than we are two-thousand years later. They had more at stake. The preaching of the message at that time created riots and could have cost the Jewish leaders their reputations, their positions, their economic livelihoods and even their lives. What would happen to you if you were believed responsible for the death of someone worshiped as God? Disproving the preaching that Jesus rose from the dead was a matter of great importance to them. So much so, that:
7. DISCIPLES WERE PERSECUTED. All records indicate that the early Apostles and Disciples were imprisoned, tortured, and suffered greatly simply for saying Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven. The Jewish leaders being more concerned, more involved, and with more at stake, persecuted the New Testament preachers for spreading that message.
8. THE TOMB WAS EMPTY. The tomb had to be empty, because if Jesus was buried in a known accessible tomb, and if the Jewish leaders were more concerned to disprove the preaching than you or I are today, they would have checked the tomb. If a body was there, they would not have had to persecute the preachers. They could have proven the preachers liars by simply displaying the body. Another reason to assume the tomb was empty is because no one knows for sure where it is today. You can find ancient Old Testament characters with certainty. But nobody for centuries even wondered about Jesus' tomb, so it was forgotten and the exact site was lost in history. Why? Because who cared about an empty tomb back then? The people of the day followed a risen Savior, not a dead one.
If you agree to those predicates, we can begin; if not, we're back to establishing the vailidity and reliabliity of the New Testament.
Now, with those predicates, can you give me one refutation? I want only one, so we can not get diluted by other points. You have made a few refutations, I will ask you to just pick one, please
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"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley
Pash--
Those points on which I can be in accord:
1. Jesus lived--I have no reason to believe otherwise.
2. Jesus was crucified--again, I find no reason to believe otherwise.
3. Jesus was considered dead--the key word there is considered.
6. Jewish leaders motivated to disprove--we could probably split hairs, but this is hardly outside the realm of acceptable assertions.
7. Disciples were persecuted--rather than having no reason to believe otherwise, I can look to the historical record to confirm persecution of early Christian believers.
However, of #4, 5, and 8, I have various difficulties. Since I'm limited to one objection, per your say-so, I think I'l choose ....
#4--What can you show me, that is not in the Bible or derived directly from, that indicates that Jesus' tomb was "known and accessible"?
Goshy, Reverend Pash, did I do good?
thanx,
Tiassa
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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
Those points on which I can be in accord:
1. Jesus lived--I have no reason to believe otherwise.
2. Jesus was crucified--again, I find no reason to believe otherwise.
3. Jesus was considered dead--the key word there is considered.
6. Jewish leaders motivated to disprove--we could probably split hairs, but this is hardly outside the realm of acceptable assertions.
7. Disciples were persecuted--rather than having no reason to believe otherwise, I can look to the historical record to confirm persecution of early Christian believers.
However, of #4, 5, and 8, I have various difficulties. Since I'm limited to one objection, per your say-so, I think I'l choose ....
#4--What can you show me, that is not in the Bible or derived directly from, that indicates that Jesus' tomb was "known and accessible"?
Goshy, Reverend Pash, did I do good?
thanx,
Tiassa
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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)