Lord, Lunatic or Liar?

Originally posted by tiassa:

...all I want is to demonstrate that one cannot mark this ground and say, "This is where Jesus was buried and rose again." It cannot be done.
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Why is that? If the Resurrection did happen(and I'll contend it did), don't you think that the empty tomb would be well known, and marked well since that day? Throughout history, man has marked the place where special events have transpired; Ford's theatre, Plymouth rock, Lourdes, Mohammed's tomb and so on.

Originally posted by tiassa:


It doesn't matter if Jesus was buried in the right tomb or the wrong. The point we're arguing is meant to demonstrate that the assumption that the Bible's retelling of events is factual is something one can only take on faith.
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Oh no, my friend, it is critical. There are many events that need to have transpired for the Resurrection to take place- Jesus had to be dead, not just unconcious; the tomb had to be sealed, and so on. If all these criteria were in place, the Resurrection HAD to happen. There is no other logical explanation.

Now, you make reference to the factual historocity of the Bible. Did the story unfold as told? Is the Bible reliable? There is a very solid case for it being so. Jesus had the benefit of four different people reciting the events that took place. That's four different authors, four different books, that tell the same story. What other figure of that time period enjoyed such a documentation?

Originally posted by tiassa:
All of it is merely designed to demonstrate the possibility that the events that establish the divinity of Jesus are to be taken on faith; one cannot establish the divinity of Jesus, or even the legitimacy of the Bible as a whole outside the faith structure.
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If the events played out as described in the Bible, that is, a {i]dead man[/i] was taken to a tomb, sealed in, guard posted, and then was seen alive three days later, what else can you conclude? You have to believe it.

While studying the story of the Resurrection, I found out many interesting things. I'd like to share those with you. :)

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"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley
 
Pash--

If, if, if ... If, yes ... but you've a lot left to achieve before those ifs become definitive.

don't you think that the empty tomb would be well known, and marked well since that day?
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Perhaps, theoretically. But this point hinges on the rest of the story.

* If Jesus was dead
* If what anyone points to as the site of his burial is his burial
* If no guards defiled the tomb
* If no radical supporters of Jesus' tomb interfered
* If, if, if.

The problem is simply this: If ______ (fill in the blank), then ______ (fill in the blank). Offering enough conditions makes just about anything possible.

The full realization of the Christian potential, in this respect, is wholly dependent upon the assumptions of fact warranted by the prerequisites of faith.

thanx ...
Tiassa :)

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
 
Tiassa,

I can fulfill all those "ifs", IF you allow that the accounts given by FOUR authors are dependable! You see, all those "ifs" actually help the case for the Resurrection, because it allows for no leeway; there are no loopholes. I can't seem to pin you down to just one though! Let me take you thru it then.

Question: Did Jesus Christ live, and did he claim that He would be resurrected?

(that's a simple "yes" or "no") :)

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"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley
 
Tiassa,

Actually, all those "ifs" only help to make the case for the Resurrection!

I can't seem to pin you down on answering me on issues, though ;)

So, I will take you thru it!

Question: Did Jesus Christ live, and did He claim that he would come back to life?

(That's a simple "yes" or "no") :)

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"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley
 
Tiassa,

Help me out here, but I running into a logic flaw. Jesus' divinity is not determined by historical record, whether accurate in detail or not. If you were really looking to find out if He is "the one" or not, then assume that the resurrection did take place, forget about the details, and then stand in awe of exactly all that means. It seems that you're taking the ass-backwards approach to this. Is it just me or?

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.
 
Pash--

Yes, Jesus lived.

No, he did not proclaim his own resurrection.

See, I refuse to be definitive here. I'm ready for possibilities. Unless I create one standard for viewing truth that is exclusive to faith, and applies nowhere else in the Universe, I'm just lying to myself when I say I know God loves me.

Was Jesus speaking of himself or of his nation? I wouldn't assert that you know more or less than all the preachers and theologians in the country, but as an outward, common idea, the braniac jury refuses to come in on this one. Even and especially the brightest theologians know that at the factual standard you're chasing, it's all in the faith.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
 
Lori,

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you're proposing that I go about seeking an answer by assuming there's no question. (Justice is blind, dear, not Faith.)

thanx,
Tiassa ;)

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
 
Originally posted by tiassa:
Yes, Jesus lived.

No, he did not proclaim his own resurrection.

Was Jesus speaking of himself or of his nation?
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"Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this? (driving the merchants out of the temple)" Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple He had spoken of his body. After He was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what He had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. -John 2:18-22

I guess you're right, that's about as far off as you can get. And where do you get confused with "temple" and "nation"? :)

C'mon Tiassa, I think you can give me this one. Actually, it's not really critical to the Resurrection proof, but it's a nice addition.

Ok, you've said, yes, He lived.

Now, question: Was He put to death?

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"I don't want to do it my way; I want to do it Yaweh!" -Patrick Ashley
 
Originally posted by tiassa:

Yes, Jesus lived.

No, he did not proclaim his own resurrection.

I'm just lying to myself when I say I know God loves me.

Was Jesus speaking of himself or of his nation?
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Well, I'll refer you to the infamous John 2:18-22...you know, that little thing about destroy this temple, and I will rebuild it in three days.

Yes, HE loves you! But if you back away from Him, He backs away too. If you come to Him, He comes to you.

Ok, you've said Jesus lived.

Question: Was he put to death?

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"I don't want to do it my way; I want to do it Yaweh!" -Patrick Ashley
 
Pash--

Where do I get "temple" and "nation"? From people of faith. It starts with the prophecies of the Old Testament and carries forward into the ministry of Jesus.

Among Lutherans, Catholics, and Quakers, I've encountered more than a few people who draw a similar line I do. In fact, I learned to draw that line because a Franciscan nun knew damn well that unless someone drew it once as an example, with the admirable intent of short-circuiting future confusion on the issue. Ask a deeply faithful Jewish person to associate the acts of Jesus to the OT prophets--you will hear talk of the prophets addressing the whole spirit of the nation, and not of prophecies of Christ.

Seems to me that you're more confused about this idea than most of the people I've met; or else your clarity is so rare as to make it damn near exclusive.

Answer: Yes, Jesus was put to death. The three chief reasons I've learned were heresy (essentially, though the word didn't really exist in that form at the time), political subversiveness, and thievery.

Advice: When you quote me for response, pay closer attention. I'm left, at present, assuming that your incomplete quote of I'm just lying to myself ... stems from either unfortunate inattention, or a classic rhetorical move in which an author edits a sentence to change its meaning or to bypass part of the point which he cannot argue around.

I'll quote you three lines. The first is a song by Ronnie James Dio. The second is how the quote was published by Christian propagandist Bob Larsen. The third is the whole sentence of the fragment you quoted in order to construct a platform from which you base certain points.

(Dio)--We are the innocent, we are the damned. We were caught in the middle of the madness, hunted by the lion and the lamb. We teach you fantasy. We teach you sin. We can give you a peace of the Universe, and we can sail away, never to return again.

(Larsen; ellipsis from source)--We are the damned ... we were hunted by ... the lamb. We teach you sin, and will sail away, never to return again. Note: Since Larsen was advising parents to keep their kids away from "Satanic" music, how much do the ommissions change the context of what is written?

(Tiassa; original quote)--Unless I create one standard for viewing truth that is exclusive to faith, and applies nowhere else in the Universe, I'm just lying to myself when I say I know God loves me.
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Now then, pay better attention, or drop the prop campaign.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

(Note--I have edited this several days after original posting due to a typographical error of one letter which left me proclaiming a religion that's not mine.)
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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited June 26, 2000).]
 
I didn't edit the line purposefully, sorry. I had to post twice, I got another server error, and must have left it out.

Still, why do you say God doesn't love you?

Jesus accused of thievery? Please enlighten me.

And as far as the Jews and Jesus, well, that's another story, which I'll let go.

Ok, you've stated you believe the Jesus lived, and that He was put to death. PHEW! so far, so good :) You've even alluded to the Jewish motive to have Him put to death, vis-a-vis Pilate.

Question: Does Joseph of Arimathea take His body done, and bring it to his tomb?

(If not, what happened, in your view?)



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"I don't want to do it my way; I want to do it Yaweh!" -Patrick Ashley
 
Pash--

Out of one meeting, on to another. Sorry to be brief, but hey ... it's theoretically a good change of pace ;)

The handling of Jesus' body ... I'll get back to that with better time.

What I was after with "God doesn't love me" is that the standard we're debating within seems to require an exclusive sense of what logic is that applies nowhere else in human endeavor. I'm lying to myself when I say God loves me if the criteria by which I determine that are false.

That's the short-form. ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:



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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
 
Originally posted by tiassa:

What I was after with "God doesn't love me" is that the standard we're debating within seems to require an exclusive sense of what logic is that applies nowhere else in human endeavor. I'm lying to myself when I say God loves me if the criteria by which I determine that are false.
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Could you make you statements more convoluted? :) ;)

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"I don't want to do it my way; I want to do it Yaweh!" -Patrick Ashley
 
Originally posted by tiassa:

What I was after with "God doesn't love me" is that the standard we're debating within seems to require an exclusive sense of what logic is that applies nowhere else in human endeavor. I'm lying to myself when I say God loves me if the criteria by which I determine that are false.
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Could you make your statements anymore convoluted?! ;)

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"I don't want to do it my way; I want to do it Yaweh!" -Patrick Ashley
 
Yes, I can. :D

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
 
By the way, Pash ... I'm looking for a better response from you than reminding me of how inadequate I am. Show me. Pretend I'm from Missouri.

And I should note that it helps me none to be simpler about things. In fact, the simpler I get, the more tangents I usually have to cover. For instance, say I make a point about, oh ... I don't know ... let's try the Drug War. Let's say I'm making this example ... oh, to demonstrate an issue about compassion. Really, should I expect people to waste their time casting moral aspersions because their best conception of my sympathy to the drug users is apparently that I operate a crack-house? I think you well know what happens when I don't exploit words for all they're worth. ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
 
Tiassa,

So anyway, to get back to my previous post, quoting:

Still, why do you say God doesn't love you?

Jesus accused of thievery? Please enlighten me.

And as far as the Jews and Jesus, well, that's another story, which I'll let go.

Ok, you've stated you believe the Jesus lived, and that He was put to death. PHEW! so far, so good You've even alluded to the Jewish motive to have Him put to death, vis-a-vis Pilate.

Question: Does Joseph of Arimathea take His body done, and bring it to his tomb?

(If not, what happened, in your view?)



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"I don't want to do it my way; I want to do it Yaweh!" -Patrick Ashley
 
Tiassa,

No, not that there is no question. I just think you're asking the wrong questions. Or maybe not wrong, but you're sweating the small stuff. Not seeing the forest. Getting all hung up in details and technicalities. Maybe it's just that we see things differently, or approach things differently. You need to go big picture with this stuff, and then work through the detail if it's still relevant to you. If you start with the detail, I don't think you'll make it to the big picture in this lifetime.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.
 
Pash--

You've got a serious problem man. If you can't understand it, I can only try it again:

Unless I create one standard for viewing truth that is exclusive to faith, and applies nowhere else in the Universe, I'm just lying to myself when I say I know God loves me.
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The way your theology seems to be arranged, in order to accept the leaps of faith required, I would be inventing a way of regarding "evidence" that applies nowhere else in the Universe. I might point, as an example, to Lori's advice:
If you were really looking to find out if He is "the one" or not, then assume that the resurrection did take place, forget about the details, and then stand in awe of exactly all that means.
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What else in the Universe can I prove by assuming the answer to the fundamental question?

As to the rest of your full-court press:

* Hey, Jesus was executed with thieves; it was a common thing for the Romans to execute political prisoners as thieves, in order to tarnish their martyrdom.

* Joseph of Arimathea: I can say either yes he did or that we are seeing a part of the literary convention which makes the story work better. Either answer works for me. I can believe that a man named Jesus was born to a woman named Mary. I can believe that around the age of thirty, he dropped what he was doing and set out on a mission. I can believe that he was eventually arrested and executed for that mission. But the whole of the divinity of Christ rests on faith and literary convention.

* No, Senator McCarthy, I am not a Communist. Yes, Senator McCarthy, I have been a Communist sympathizer in the past. I mean, really, when are you done wasting my time with this step-by-step inquisition of how I regard Your myth? So far you're simply standing on an assumption that whatever you choose to believe of the Bible is true, without question. Do Better. :rolleyes:

thanx,
Tiassa ;)

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
 
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