Jesus Without The Bible...?

[Lori_7]

How are you struggling with this. I'm asking you if you think there is anyone who thinks they hear god but is actually nuts.

It's a simple yes or no question. Do you think everyone who hears voices is sane and is actually hearing a spirit/deity of some kind or do you accept at least some of those people are just unwell? Yes or freakin' no?

how in the hell could i possibly know that? can you remove your head from your ass long enough to realize that THERE IS NO WAY FOR ME TO POSSIBLY KNOW THAT? see, i'm not like you. i don't just make shit up about what's happening to other people based on nothing but my own beliefs.

How do they discern though? How can you tell if the voices you hear are in your head or from god? Every stayed away a few days straight? When you don't get enough sleep you start hearing things, seeing things move in the corner of your eyes. Ever had a really bad fever and become incoherent, hearing and seeing things not there? Thinking is a biochemical process and if you mess with those chemicals you can think all kinds of crazy stuff and it not be real. You might believe your brain chemistry is normal but it might not be. Someone with a temperature of 102 is not responsible for what they see and hear, they are ill and they might be convinced what they think they hear is real.

You haven't provided any way of telling between the bat shit crazy and the religious.

how does anyone discern? how do you discern? what you don't understand is that it doesn't matter what the voices are, and it doesn't matter what they say. what matters is what you do about it.

no ffs, i have never stayed awake for several days straight. why in the fuck would anyone do that? and yes i've experienced delirium when having a fever as a child, and what i've experienced spiritually is nothing even remotely like that, not to mention i didn't have a fever. not that any of that matters to you, because you're still going to believe whatever the fuck you want to believe, no matter how unfounded.

And you know this how? And even if you two don't do you think every person in the world who hears voices definitely doesn't? Does no person with a chemical imbalance ever hear voices? That's obviously not true since we put plenty of nutty people into care and some of them scream about the voices they hear.

Again and again I've asked you this and you fail to answer.

and i'm not going to, because unlike you, i don't go around making shit up about people i don't know, based solely on my own desire to believe or disbelieve something.

i know i don't have a chemical imbalance because i've lived in my body for 44 years, have had excellent medical care available to me, and have never been diagnosed with a chemical imbalance. would you like to know why? because i've never exhibited symptoms of any chemical imbalance. again, not that it will matter to you, because all that matters to you is that you don't believe in god.

If you believed in god and didn't hear voices I'd say you were misguided. If you hear voices, god or Santa or Jeff the Sky Pixie (pointy be His hat!) then I'd say you're mentally unwell. The fact some people frame their illness and delusions in terms of religion just makes things worse. The fact we sometimes can't tell between the religious and the insane means that there are unwell people 'hiding' within the community, who would function better in society if they could get some help. Their illness might not just be making them think they hear Jesus, it might be messing with anger or compulsion issues, with their ability to concentrate or interact with people.

i'm not misguided. i'm not mentally unwell. i have no anger or compulsion issues, and i have no problems concentrating or interacting with people. once again, none of this matters to you, as long as you don't have to consider something that you don't want to consider.

What can be demonstrated to be true, repeatedly and to any observer. Hence why I asked if you could demonstrate you're actually talking to something which exists and aren't just mentally unwell. You've repeatedly failed to provide me with a way to tell the difference. Furthermore the claims of people who say they speak to an all knowing god fail to stand up to testing. Thus it is reasonable to conclude they aren't speaking to god any more than the guy locked up in the nut house is speaking to Jeff the Sky Pixie (pointy be His hat!).

i've already explained to you that god does not communicate with me, for you, or in order to be "tested". god is an intelligent entity (much more intelligent than you or i), with an agenda (that does not equate to yours or mine). you're not applying logic here at all.

Yes, the world is full of stupid, gullible, uninformed, hateful, selfish tools and at times we all fall into some or all of those categories. Has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you've got a direct line to a supposed deity inside your skull.



Actually those are not crazy, they are the extremes which evolution has wired into us. We wouldn't be here today if we hadn't fought our way to the top of the planet's food chain, often literally. Far back in my ancestral past I'm sure there's a few examples of my ancestor living and passing on his genes because he kills another person (or ape-like creature since he might be that far back) for food or shelter or mate. Back when you lived on the edge of starvation your entire short 20 year long life killing someone else for their food meant you lived another day. Unfortunately now that we have enough to survive on we kill one another over 'luxuries' like gold, diamonds, resources. Perhaps in 50 years when the environment is buggered we'll go back to killing one another for essential things.

evidence that not only are people evil, but retarded too. uke:

well i'm not anymore, and i have the voice in my head to thank for that. sucks to be you.

If that person hears a voice which is in his head and acts on it then he's likely to do harm because he'll be acting on information not based in reality. It's the same thing with religion. I'd have no problem with faith if people cut compartmentalise their minds but unfortunately they can't and people's beliefs inform their actions and their actions affect people around them. If your beliefs aren't based in reality then you're more likely to do things which lead to unwanted consequences than if you based your actions in information garnered from reality. Religious books by Bronze Age thugs or voices in your head are not based in reality.

How do you know the guy muttering to the voices in his head will be okay tomorrow or the day after? What if the chemical imbalance gets worse, because it is untreated? What if he completely detaches from reality? Mental illness is generally degenerative if untreated. Think about what you said and consider if it were another illness. Cancer starts as a small group of cells doing something a little different and it might not cause symptoms or problems. But if you leave it and say "It doesn't hurt not, it's okay" then it'll bite you in the arse. Perhaps your view on illness is a little skewed, you are American after all and your health care system an utter farce, but illness shouldn't go untreated. Here in the UK we don't have the notion of a 'pre-existing condition' and so people aren't afraid to speak up when they are ill.

listen big brother, people are responsible for their own lives and their own bodies and their own minds all over the world. if someone needs help and wants help, then i'm the first one to want to help. if someone is being victimized, then i'm the first one to defend. but i do not go around labeling people, and pointing fingers at people, and living in fear, just because people think or behave or believe differently than i do. why? BECAUSE THAT'S CRAZY, that's why.

And can you prove this in any way?

you mean can i make you believe something that you're dead set against believing? no. it's not my place to prove anything to you. just like it wasn't anyone else's place to prove it to me. it's god's place. you want proof, then seek god and get it.

Doesn't mean you aren't unwell or that it isn't affecting you in some other way or won't become worse in the future.

in your imagination. :crazy:

If the argument "It doesn't cause harm to anyone but myself" were valid then a number of laws to do with drug usage would change.

i said including myself, not but myself.

Suppose someone has enough money to never need to work again and they are an alcoholic. They don't have a job to lose and they can afford their drink. Should they be allowed to drink themselves into oblivion? Smoke crack? Shot heroin?

sure. why not big brother? it's their life.

You might retort that with "But their habit might get out of control and they start stealing or hurting people". Exactly the same can be said for mental illness.

and that's when intervention is required.

So if someone shot up heroin everyday and could maintain a job etc then you'd be okay with that? If someone is not interacting with anyone else can do they anything they like to themselves?

If someone was hearing voices which told them to cut off their fingers and toes, and then arms and legs would that be okay since they might otherwise be intelligent people who aren't hurting anyone else? There are instances of people hearing such voices or being so nutty as to cut off various bits of their own bodies.



And none of those things don't mean you aren't ill in some way. If someone has a good career and been happily married for 30 years, with kids etc is it okay for them to be a drug addict?

Someone with very slight diabetes might go years without noticing anything but if they don't keep an eye on it then it could get much much worse, when if they'd watched their sugar intake they would never have developed a larger problem.

As I just mentioned, you have a notion of 'pre-existing conditions' in the US. This is partly because its a statistical fact that people with certain conditions will require more medical care and numerous mental problems are on such lists. They come up in questionnaires in regards to family history because problems can develop later in life and you're at increased risk of many things if your parents had them.

Ignoring problems because they seem okay now won't magic them away. And neither will all the prayers to Jebus you can muster.

people are going to do what they're going to do. i suppose if it were left up to you big brother, everyone who claimed to hear the voice of god would be locked up in a padded cell. imo it's survival of the fittest. what this world needs is strong, capable and healthy people who are accountable for themselves, not a bunch of invalids to keep in lock down or on welfare.

You have a serious misconception about what 'evidence' is, but then you are religious. Anecdotes, particularly irrelevant ones, don't count.

If you can demonstrate the voice you hear is telling you things you couldn't possibly know then I'd take you seriously. If you can demonstrate that you aren't one of the people who have a chemical imbalance and the resultant mental illness (no matter how slight) results in hearing imaginary voices, then I'd take you seriously. And how would you do that? Evidence. Evidence, that thing which relates to repeatable demonstrations which are independent of observer. The criteria I have is precisely the same as I have for your religious claims, if you can demonstrate it in a repeatable manner which meets the criteria of the scientific method then I'll take you seriously. Until then I simply (and I mean this in complete honesty) cannot tell the difference between someone preaching 'the Truth' because 'the Lord speaks to me' and someone talking bullshit because they are mentally ill.

what you don't understand is that i don't give a rat's ass if you take me seriously, because i know that regardless of anything and everything that is evident, you will continue to believe whatever the hell you want to believe, for no other reason than it's what you want to believe. :shrug:

 

[keith1]

that's new.

It fits the data, and can be studied first hand.
Reality would not be new. It would supersede all other...postulates.
(Oh shit, I just invented a new religion).

 

[keith1]

That is interesting . Is there any truth to that ? Is the mathematical part sound or bull crap ? That is what I am thinking , We see our futures . I don't know if it is determination or actually seeing the future? A lot of the shit seems like it is not what you would choose of free will. Makes me think of preordained . I do understand making plans and seeing the plan through, Completing steps to make things happen , but could there be a master plan out side of our selves as individuals . A group plan

One's future self would have more wisdom and be more progressively expanded (universe expansion) than the "present counterpart**". One would therefore have to assume the future "you" would be able to communicate to the present "you" more... succinctly.
(The present "you" would be more attuned to communicating with a younger version of "yourself" in your past--hence, one should be able to calculate the quality and quantity of advise--or confusion-- one is currently broadcasting to ones younger version). Practice would of course have it's results.

**Counterpart to convey a natural connection to.

 

[Adstar]

Good. Most people haven't read theirs. I guess my question is, why did you need a study bible for it to make sense if god is capable of communicating directly with us? And, if god is capable of communicating directly with us, why the need of a bible at all?

God reveals Himself when we seek Him with all earnestly.

Reading the bible is an act of seeking.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[Adstar]

yes, which is where the spirit and experience comes in. imo you typically gain more understanding by living through something than you do by reading about something.

Yes. Often sadly this is true. Wouldn't it be good if people just listened to God and avoided all the trauma of learning things the hard way.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

But why couldn't god just implant the knowledge in us. Seriously, why all the mystery? Why all the cryptic writings?

So those who hate the love of the truth but love religion can read the words and totally miss the meanings and interpret them to mean something they want it to mean and lead themselves down a side path to nowhere.

The Message of God has been transported and given out by those who shall not be saved by it and they have given it to people who actually accept it and will be saved. I will not be surprised if i see a few missionaries writhing in the lake of fire and a few of the natives they gave the word to happy in the embrace of God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[gmilam]

So those who hate the love of the truth but love religion can read the words and totally miss the meanings and interpret them to mean something they want it to mean and lead themselves down a side path to nowhere.

The Message of God has been transported and given out by those who shall not be saved by it and they have given it to people who actually accept it and will be saved. I will not be surprised if i see a few missionaries writhing in the lake of fire and a few of the natives they gave the word to happy in the embrace of God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Wow. So God writes in code so that some people will take the wrong path and burn for eternity. Do you really believe this shit?

 

[keith1]

<Place new religion name here, when established>

Chapter I : Nodal Dynamic Spacetime Transendence Procedure

1 -Leave open the thought that you are communicating

with "yourself" from "yourself" of a future moment-- through

the spacetime "window" called the planck zero-point (Z^0 = >0).

2 -One's future self would have more wisdom and be more

progressively expanded (universe expansion) than the

"present counterpart**". One would therefore have to assume

the future "you" would be able to communicate to the present

"you" more... succinctly.

(The present "you" would be more attuned to communicating

with a younger version of "yourself" in your past--hence,

one should be able to calculate the quality and quantity of

advise--or confusion-- one is currently broadcasting to ones

younger version). Practice would of course have it's

results.

**Counterpart to convey a natural connection to.

3 -One's death is the last future moment available to

broadcast and transmit data to one's past self(s). Data is

transfered in data packages, so the passing thru the Planck

Zero-point (Z^0) is accomplished in an "osmosis-like coupled

transfer". Practicing such transfers in time, will develop a

person's "strong connective bond" to a person's past self.

4 -To fail to achieve this bonding, is to have one's last

live moments "trapped", in an "energy transference package"

(lake of fire).

To succeed in establishing a strong connective bonding with

one's past selves (in several past locales/moments***), one

escapes into the past, as a final (and permanently lasting) action.


***locales/moments = spacetime

 

[Lori_7]

i'm not going to be as smart and capable as what's interacted with me, even when i'm really old.

 

[AlphaNumeric]

how in the hell could i possibly know that? can you remove your head from your ass long enough to realize that THERE IS NO WAY FOR ME TO POSSIBLY KNOW THAT? see, i'm not like you. i don't just make shit up about what's happening to other people based on nothing but my own beliefs.

Errr.... yes you do. That's what religion is about.

As for 'my' views on people, its the medical profession's view. There are people who are deemed mentally ill by professional medical people and are on medication or locked up. Some of them hear voices.

Do you agree with the medical professionals or do you think they are wrong?

how does anyone discern? how do you discern? what you don't understand is that it doesn't matter what the voices are, and it doesn't matter what they say. what matters is what you do about it.

no ffs, i have never stayed awake for several days straight. why in the fuck would anyone do that? and yes i've experienced delirium when having a fever as a child, and what i've experienced spiritually is nothing even remotely like that, not to mention i didn't have a fever. not that any of that matters to you, because you're still going to believe whatever the fuck you want to believe, no matter how unfounded.

You seem to be under the false impression I'm the only person in the world with views on this and thus I'm having to just suppose about other people without any reason or evidence. There's an entire medical mental health industry. Drug companies make anti-psychosis drugs, insane asylums keep the people who are beyond medication locked up for their own and everyone else's protection. People who have spent their lives studying mental illness deem some people to be mentally ill. Clearly some people who hear voices are deemed mentally ill by medical professionals. As such I don't have to meet them and be medically trained to know such people exist.

and i'm not going to, because unlike you, i don't go around making shit up about people i don't know, based solely on my own desire to believe or disbelieve something.

you can't even answer whether or not you agree with the medical profession on this matter?

O know i don't have a chemical imbalance because i've lived in my body for 44 years, have had excellent medical care available to me, and have never been diagnosed with a chemical imbalance.

Self diagnosis is never a good idea.

If someone aged 70 said "I don't have cancer, I've been in perfect health all my life and I'm in no pain" would that be reason not to check them?

would you like to know why? because i've never exhibited symptoms of any chemical imbalance.

Other than hearing voices you mean?

again, not that it will matter to you, because all that matters to you is that you don't believe in god.

This has nothing to do with god. It has to do with malfunctioning brains and hearing things which aren't there. I specifically said that it wouldn't matter to me whether you said you hear Jesus, Thor, Vishnu or Jeff the Sky Pixie, hearing voices which aren't there is never a good sign.

i'm not misguided. i'm not mentally unwell. i have no anger or compulsion issues, and i have no problems concentrating or interacting with people. once again, none of this matters to you, as long as you don't have to consider something that you don't want to consider.

Your theistic beliefs are irrelevant to your current state of health. If you were Christopher Hitchins or richard Dawkins I'd still be saying this to you. Try to separate out the issues here and not be blinded by your dislike of atheists.

i've already explained to you that god does not communicate with me, for you, or in order to be "tested". god is an intelligent entity (much more intelligent than you or i), with an agenda (that does not equate to yours or mine). you're not applying logic here at all.

And you have evidence for your claim god exists and is an intelligent entity? Thought not.

Let me (and the rest of the world) know when you've got something more than baseless assertions.

well i'm not anymore, and i have the voice in my head to thank for that. sucks to be you.

Didn't you just say you don't make judgements about people you don't know? You've managed to reach a view of me from just this discussion that it 'sucks' to be me? If we're doing the "Lets list our lifes pluses" thing, which you did to 'prove' you aren't mentally ill then I have a job I love, an education most would envy, including a doctorate, I'm in good fitness (playing sports 3 or 4 times a week and walking around 30 miles a week), I spend my free time doing things I enjoy (said sports and volunteering for a charity) I don't have any money troubles and I'm about to buy my first house. Not many under 30s can say they don't have money troubles and can consider buying a house. Yeah, sucks to be me, just because I give a shit about what can be demonstrated and not just made up.

listen big brother, people are responsible for their own lives and their own bodies and their own minds all over the world. if someone needs help and wants help, then i'm the first one to want to help. if someone is being victimized, then i'm the first one to defend. but i do not go around labeling people, and pointing fingers at people, and living in fear, just because people think or behave or believe differently than i do. why? BECAUSE THAT'S CRAZY, that's why.

You don't go around labelling people but you're happy to say it must suck to be me?

Wow, is hypocrisy ever lost on you deary.

you mean can i make you believe something that you're dead set against believing? no. it's not my place to prove anything to you. just like it wasn't anyone else's place to prove it to me. it's god's place. you want proof, then seek god and get it.

I would love to be shown irrefutable evidence for the existence of a supreme being. I studied physics because I want to understand the universe around us and if it were the result of an intelligence then that would be HUGE. But that doesn't mean I'll accept any old shit people put forth, I expect reason and evidence.

Also, according to 1 Peter 3:15 it is your duty to always be ready to give the reason for the faith that you have. Tons of Christian denominations (though there's 30,000 in all!) think that spreading The Word is central to their faith. Hence missionaries.

And your answer is meaningless. How can I search for god when I know nothing about him? And before you say "Read the bible" why should I start there and not the Qu'ran or some other holy book of some other religion? What reason do I have to look at your particular beliefs before any other? Can't you provide any reason to justify looking at your beliefs? If you can't then why do you believe? Are all your beliefs based on just feelings and voices? If so you might want to really take a look at yourself.

in your imagination.

There are plenty of documented medical cases of people with mental illnesses, including hearing voices, getting progressively worse. Unfortunately a lot of people have mental illnesses of some kind and thus its a well documented phenomenon.

sure. why not big brother? it's their life.

And you think someone being an alcoholic will have absolutely no impact on anyone else?

and that's when intervention is required.

So you think you should just leave people with illnesses and addictions to get worse and worse until it simply can't be ignored and then you step in? Wow, that's Christian of you. Is that what Jesus would do?

people are going to do what they're going to do. i suppose if it were left up to you big brother, everyone who claimed to hear the voice of god would be locked up in a padded cell.

No but thanks for exaggerating and misrepresenting me. It just helps illustrate what a poor case you're making for your position . I'd definitely want them to be checked by a medical professional or two. If they really are hearing voices then medication of some kind would be the probably course. Only for the people whose cases are extreme would sequestering within a facility be necessary. There's plenty of people with some sort of mental illness living normal lives thanks to their medication. How many times have there been reports in the news of someone doing something a bit crazy because they forgot to take their bi-polar medication or anti-psychotics?

imo it's survival of the fittest. what this world needs is strong, capable and healthy people who are accountable for themselves, not a bunch of invalids to keep in lock down or on welfare.

Yet more hyperbola. Isn't there a commandment about bearing false witness or something?

That you don't understand is that i don't give a rat's ass if you take me seriously, because i know that regardless of anything and everything that is evident, you will continue to believe whatever the hell you want to believe, for no other reason than it's what you want to believe. :shrug:

No, I believe what I believe because of evidence (or lack there of in the case of religions). If someone presents evidence then I'll believe the implications. You're the one believing because you want to believe. I've repeatedly asked you to present something to justify your position and you've failed and instead come out with "Go find god yourself!". Is that what Jesus would say? Check out 1 Peter 3:15, along with those 10 commandments (I'd mention the other 603 but you're already ignoring those), though no doubt you can quote me another passage which justifies your intellectual laziness and dishonest. The bible is, after all, the big book of multiple choice

 

[Lori_7]

alphanumeric,

with all due respect, you are the umpteenth knucklehead i've had this same conversation with. a futile conversation in which you try to convince me i'm mentally ill for absolutely no reason other than your own desire to deny the existence of god and of a spiritual realm. conversation over.

peace.

 

[NMSquirrel]

i would have to agree with lori on this one alpha..
simply because you do not know her..the only thing you know of her is by what she posts..and that is not all there is to her..

 

[gmilam]

You must admit, hearing voices in your head is not normal.

 

[spidergoat]

You must admit, hearing voices in your head is not normal.

I would not admit that. I think it is within the realm of normal human experience. Lori is by all measures a normal woman in a loving relationship, she holds down a job and lives in a house with pets and generally seems like a good person. That is much stranger than the alternative explanation that she is mentally ill.

 

[gmilam]

I would not admit that. I think it is within the realm of normal human experience.

Let me rephrase that - hearing voices that you attribute to an outside source, rather than your own imagination, is not normal.

Granted, I have a running dialogue in my head at all times. But I know it's me.

 

[NMSquirrel]

Granted, I have a running dialogue in my head at all times. But I know it's me.

"Wear the Nike!"
"NO, i wanna wear the Rebok's!"

boo..bad running pun..
but i bet the arguing with yourself is there..

 

[heart]

Lori,

Hey, I think what some may be saying, me included, there are those who claim to hear God. For example there was a woman in the town I live who killed her children. Why? Because she said God told her to.

Do you believe that the Biblical God told her to do this? Why or why not? I mean this is the same God that ordered 42 bears to rip apart and kill children because they made fun of a prophet for being bald.

But, back to the point, just because someone tells them God told them to do this or that doesn't make it so...no more than those in the Bible who claimed God told them to do so.

Like, I'm sure your immediate thought about the woman who killed her children was she's nuts and certainly not an action you'd agree with. So why agree with those who claim God told them to kill people for him in the Bible or believe that God ordered an army to kill for him?

I guess what I'm asking is what makes it okay back then and not now? Why think when its done in the Bible it's okay vs someone like that mother killing her children not being okay?

 

[spidergoat]

Let me rephrase that - hearing voices that you attribute to an outside source, rather than your own imagination, is not normal.

Granted, I have a running dialogue in my head at all times. But I know it's me.

No, I mean exactly that. Some aspects of behavior or perception that we could call mentally ill if experienced all the time are within the realm of normality. For instance, people that work themselves into a trance state or frenzy, this occurs throughout human culture, but is not necessarily a symptom of mental illness. It can also occur when calm. That's why we should not always trust our senses.

 

[keith1]

i'm not going to be as smart and capable as what's interacted with me, even when i'm really old.

There may be some "productive" "interactions" "worth" mentioning. I would conjecture that most are not. There is no data to make a conclusion.

It would be delusional to claim any stance on mere intuition, gut hunch, internal dialog, majority vote, etc., without data to substantiate the claim.

 

[Lori_7]

There may be some "productive" "interactions" "worth" mentioning. I would conjecture that most are not. There is no data to make a conclusion.

It would be delusional to claim any stance on mere intuition, gut hunch, internal dialog, majority vote, etc., without data to substantiate the claim.

well of course. i have plenty of data.