Enmos
Valued Senior Member
I know that. You know my position on that.. Remember?
As for the rest of your post, I was really just replying to what I quoted from you. Other than that, I'm not participating in the discussion.
Jesus Without The Bible...?
- Thread starter Thoreau
- Start date
I know that. You know my position on that.. Remember?
As for the rest of your post, I was really just replying to what I quoted from you. Other than that, I'm not participating in the discussion.
charles brough
Registered Senior Member
If no one has addressed this, perhaps I can . . .
Yes, that is what the Bible is about and what you evidently believe. But realistically, that still does not mean it is more than fiction. Two thousand years ago, everyone believed the atmosphere around them was filled with spirits. There were literally some seven thousand gods that people in the Roman Empire actually believed ruled their lives. Their nature and exploits were well recorded, written down, but does that make them true? Do you believe their story because it was "documented"? Would we have our modern way of life if scientists took the Bible literally and figured the world and universe as it is described in the Scriptures?
brough
civilization-overview dot com
I know that. You know my position on that.. Remember?
As for the rest of your post, I was really just replying to what I quoted from you. Other than that, I'm not participating in the discussion.
lol...well that must be very convenient for you.
i explained earlier in the thread how i come to understand scripture. i believe what i do because of what i've experienced, not because of what i've read. what i've experienced is what makes what i read understandable. i'm like mz's family member in that i very rarely if ever pick up the bible and start reading it for shits and giggles anymore. i have read it however when the holy spirit has said to me, "go get your bible and read revelations". i had to blow the dust off of it. :shrug:
i just don't get it how nobody's really shocked or dismayed when people read the bible and follow it like a rule book or a philosophy, or develop some cult or some country club around it. but as soon as someone actually testifies to experiencing what the book is actually about, everybody freaks out and calls it "schizophrenia'.
it doesn't make any sense.
Yes, I am.
Oh, you meant a medical doctor. Sorry, my doctorate is in physics. You know, that thing which tries to describe reality using evidence?
If she hears voices, audible voices, then there is something wrong with her.
Of course we could take the scientific route to check the claim its god talking to her and ask her questions she couldn't know the answer to but god does. We ask say 20 questions and we'd expect 20 correct answers but we could be nice and say 15 is enough (since they wouldn't be yes or no anyway). If she could do that then I would accept that the voices she hears are somehow tethered to reality. Wouldn't mean they are god speaking but at least it would mean she's not full on hallucinating them.
Do you think she'd pass that test? Has any person ever tested like that passed? Claims of astral projection, mind reading, all these sorts of things have always failed when put to the test. If she can prove otherwise James Randi has $1million for her.
Hardly.
Every single person ever put to the test who claims to be speaking, literally, with god has failed to stand up to the testing. And there's a ton of people who claim to hear god speaking to them. Some of them are innocuous and god tells them "Be nice to people" and "You're doing okay". A person can hear such voices and still be psychotic. We hear about the people who hear voices saying "Kill them..... kill them all now!" all the time. Many of them are religious.
Think about it, the very fact delusional psychosis is indistinguishable from such religious behaviour says a lot. This brings me onto another comment you made
Yes, he does and I'm not 'full of shit', I have behind me every single recorded and tested claim in history failing to stand up to that testing. You have 'belief' because that person hears voices which back up what you belief. If that person heard Vishnu you'd say they are nuts, as you don't believe Vishnu is real. And there are plenty of people who think they hear Vishnu or Mohammed or Thor or Baal or Ra or [insert deity here]. They can't all be right in their religious beliefs but they can all be wrong. They can't all be non-psychotic, but they could all be psychotic.
From the outside looking in I see no reason to think the person saying "I hear/see [Christian icon]!!" is any more or less sane than the person saying "I hear/see [Hindu icon]!!".
If someone heard Captain Kirk speaking to them we'd all agree they are nuts. Likewise if they believes themselves the literal incarnation of Santa. Or that they channel the essence of Mr Ed (the talking horse, just in case the reference isn't clear). We know those 3 entities to be fictional. You believe 99.9999% of the deity concepts in human history to be fictional. We agree on that. I just happened to go the extra 0.0001% further because there's no evidence to think hearing Jesus is any less batshit wacko than hearing Santa.
you know for someone who is intelligent enough to obtain a doctorate in physics, i'm surprised it hasn't occurred to you, that god doesn't communicate with people like me and mz's family member so you can test it. you can't tell me you're dumb enough to think that god is even remotely interested in being manipulated by the likes of you or anyone for that matter. apparently, doctorate or not, you don't get it. i suggest that you take a moment and think about how illogical and immensely egotistical what you're suggesting is.
i dunno how many times i have tried to read the bible..i would pick it up and start reading it but after a few verses i would be lost..it wasn't until i got a Study Bible that i actually read it all the way through..
its not hard to contemplate why someone hasn't read the bible..(have you read it?)
and
for me the bible helps me confirm what I think God has taught me.
um..so do you..
this is church doctrine,not all christian churches subscribe to those rules.
to be a christian just means 'to be christ like' (like jesus).
to emulate and hold true his words.
anything else is mans attempt to control things.
---------
you don't even know her..see how quickly one person devalues another..
My comments about people in the past are not restricted to literal tests but include "God is telling me to do X because Y will then happen" and Y doesn't happen, or at least no more frequently than random chance would imply anyway.
Predictions of the end of the world, rapture, curing illnesses, winning games, passing tests. People who claim to have a direct line to god never seem to be statistically superior to those who don't make such claims.
He wants us to believe, doesn't he? If he's willing to fiddle with people's everyday lives why not do it in a way which cannot leave room for people to deny him?
No, I'm afraid you are the one who doesn't get. My point, which obviously eluded you, was that there are huge numbers of people who have or do claim to literally speak with god. None of them show any understanding or knowledge beyond that which is known to non-believers or random guessing. None of them seem to have access to information others do not. A literal test is just a more specific way to show this but when considering all those people throughout history and their complete failure to demonstrate the truth of their claims in even a vague way the conclusion is the same, they aren't speaking to god.
Furhermore I made the point that many of those people believe in different gods. They can't all be right, even you agree on that point. Thus some of them are psychotic, they are hearing voices which aren't there, there is something wrong with their brain chemistry. But which ones? Some? Most? All? How can we tell? Reason and evidence.
You didn't address any of those points I made. Was it because you didn't understand them, didn't read them or didn't want to respond to them? It's a fact there are many people from many religious (and even non-religious) denominations who hear voices. They cannot all be hearing their version of god, since many of them disagree. If someone hears Vishnu the voice isn't going to say "I am the one true god", Hinduism is polytheistic. If someone hears the Abrahamic god the voice isn't going to imply there are other gods. Do you agree that at least some of those people are ill and are not hearing god?
Mental illnesses appear in all ethnic groups all over the world. In the US there will be a non-zero intersection of people who are heavily Christian and also unwell. Thus some of them will hear voices, think its god but in fact they are just ill. Do you agree that some people who are Christian and hear god are just unwell and not actually hearing him? Or do you think every single Christian who literally hears god speak to them is not unwell and is actually hearing god? How can we tell these people apart from the well people who really hear your god?
You have your particular faith and thus from your point of view anyone not in your faith who hears a voice saying their faith is right is unwell. Am I right in this assessment? People of other faiths have similar views about people of your faith. As someone with no faith I think that about all people of faith who say they literally hear a voice speak to them. How do you show to people like myself someone who says that is hearing god?
Mental illness is a fact, it crosses ethnicities, cultures and peoples. What reason is there to think someone displaying all the symptoms of a mental illness isn't mentally ill? We lock people in mental institutes because the general consensus is that their claims of pixies stealing their dreams and selling them on E-bay are delusions. It isn't up to us to prove such people wrong, it is for them to prove their claims right. All attempts by the "I hear god!" crowd to justify their claims have failed to meet the required standards. As such they are indistinguishable from the mentally ill.
In your reply please actually address what I've said. The "You just don't get it" argument is pretty weak, even from the religious. Can't you justify your position with more than that? I suppose not, else I'd almost take your religion seriously
.My comments about people in the past are not restricted to literal tests but include "God is telling me to do X because Y will then happen" and Y doesn't happen, or at least no more frequently than random chance would imply anyway.
Predictions of the end of the world, rapture, curing illnesses, winning games, passing tests. People who claim to have a direct line to god never seem to be statistically superior to those who don't make such claims.
He wants us to believe, doesn't he? If he's willing to fiddle with people's everyday lives why not do it in a way which cannot leave room for people to deny him?
No, I'm afraid you are the one who doesn't get. My point, which obviously eluded you, was that there are huge numbers of people who have or do claim to literally speak with god. None of them show any understanding or knowledge beyond that which is known to non-believers or random guessing. None of them seem to have access to information others do not. A literal test is just a more specific way to show this but when considering all those people throughout history and their complete failure to demonstrate the truth of their claims in even a vague way the conclusion is the same, they aren't speaking to god.
Furhermore I made the point that many of those people believe in different gods. They can't all be right, even you agree on that point. Thus some of them are psychotic, they are hearing voices which aren't there, there is something wrong with their brain chemistry. But which ones? Some? Most? All? How can we tell? Reason and evidence.
You didn't address any of those points I made. Was it because you didn't understand them, didn't read them or didn't want to respond to them? It's a fact there are many people from many religious (and even non-religious) denominations who hear voices. They cannot all be hearing their version of god, since many of them disagree. If someone hears Vishnu the voice isn't going to say "I am the one true god", Hinduism is polytheistic. If someone hears the Abrahamic god the voice isn't going to imply there are other gods. Do you agree that at least some of those people are ill and are not hearing god?
Mental illnesses appear in all ethnic groups all over the world. In the US there will be a non-zero intersection of people who are heavily Christian and also unwell. Thus some of them will hear voices, think its god but in fact they are just ill. Do you agree that some people who are Christian and hear god are just unwell and not actually hearing him? Or do you think every single Christian who literally hears god speak to them is not unwell and is actually hearing god? How can we tell these people apart from the well people who really hear your god?
You have your particular faith and thus from your point of view anyone not in your faith who hears a voice saying their faith is right is unwell. Am I right in this assessment? People of other faiths have similar views about people of your faith. As someone with no faith I think that about all people of faith who say they literally hear a voice speak to them. How do you show to people like myself someone who says that is hearing god?
Mental illness is a fact, it crosses ethnicities, cultures and peoples. What reason is there to think someone displaying all the symptoms of a mental illness isn't mentally ill? We lock people in mental institutes because the general consensus is that their claims of pixies stealing their dreams and selling them on E-bay are delusions. It isn't up to us to prove such people wrong, it is for them to prove their claims right. All attempts by the "I hear god!" crowd to justify their claims have failed to meet the required standards. As such they are indistinguishable from the mentally ill.
In your reply please actually address what I've said. The "You just don't get it" argument is pretty weak, even from the religious. Can't you justify your position with more than that? I suppose not, else I'd almost take your religion seriously
i can't speak for anyone but myself and my opinions on this are based on my own experience. given that imo, everything comes down to intention. the holy spirit's not the only spirit out there, and if a person's intentions aren't in the right place, man they better be careful what they ask for or invite, because they might just get it. if someone wants to be lied to, there are plenty of liars out there to fill their ears, and lead them down a path of destruction.
you can judge a spirit by it's "fruit", or what the influence manifests into. good spirit = good fruit, bad spirit = bad fruit. it's that simple. fruit takes a little time to mature usually. i've had some spiritual experiences that really threw me for a loop for a minute. it was hard to know what to do with it, and how to react, and what it meant. and the whole time i had to keep coming back to examining my own intentions.
from what i've experienced, i don't think god interacts with us in order to be tested, or approved of, or validated...it's more the other way around. god interacts with us to accomplish a work in us if we allow it, and around us if we don't.
If you are curious so go on an search with open mind , and get your partial thinking out of the way .
How can one know what the bible is about if they don't read it?
You can experience what its about.
how did ppl know about God before the bible?
But how do you know it's of the Bible if you haven't read it?
Absolutely nothing in what you said answered my questions.
You admit that its possible for people to not be hearing the voice of god, though you think it might be 'other spirits'. How can we tell who is hearing god from who is hearing the devil or whatever these 'other spirits' are? None of them stand up to scrutiny, none of them have demonstrated access to information beyond what someone can 'get' via guessing.
It's like the whole "Who is a true Christian?". Plenty of people profess to be but when one of them steps out of line, by changing religion or getting caught having sex with a male prostitute while high on crystal meth, suddenly all the other 'true Christians' say "Oh they weren't a true Christian!". If the true Christians are really communing with god why can't they identify one another?
Why is gods way of influencing people indistinguishable from people being nuts? If he's got an important message to get to people to try and save us from damnation (a punishment he's doling out!) then why isn't he doing things in a different way? If I had to communicate with someone in a subtle way I wouldn't do it in a way which is indistinguishable from being insane.
Your entire argument boils down to "You just know". Well people who say they are 'true Christians' claim to know but when they step out of line from the 'flock' then suddenly they didn't know.
I'll ask you again, do you admit that some people who hear voices are mentally ill? If you have trouble giving an answer to this question at least have the honesty to admit it, don't just skim over it. It makes it look like you know your position is weak and indefensible.....
um..perspective argument..
try describing a black hole to ancient ppl's, or better yet send a computer (how bout a Ford) back in time and see how they would describe it..
IOW don't dismiss God just cause his followers are screwed up..
and
who is to say he isn't?
this speaks of peer pressure more than anything else..following the group instead of God.Your entire argument boils down to "You just know". Well people who say they are 'true Christians' claim to know but when they step out of line from the 'flock' then suddenly they didn't know.
Absolutely nothing in what you said answered my questions.
You admit that its possible for people to not be hearing the voice of god, though you think it might be 'other spirits'. How can we tell who is hearing god from who is hearing the devil or whatever these 'other spirits' are? None of them stand up to scrutiny, none of them have demonstrated access to information beyond what someone can 'get' via guessing.
It's like the whole "Who is a true Christian?". Plenty of people profess to be but when one of them steps out of line, by changing religion or getting caught having sex with a male prostitute while high on crystal meth, suddenly all the other 'true Christians' say "Oh they weren't a true Christian!". If the true Christians are really communing with god why can't they identify one another?
Why is gods way of influencing people indistinguishable from people being nuts? If he's got an important message to get to people to try and save us from damnation (a punishment he's doling out!) then why isn't he doing things in a different way? If I had to communicate with someone in a subtle way I wouldn't do it in a way which is indistinguishable from being insane.
Your entire argument boils down to "You just know". Well people who say they are 'true Christians' claim to know but when they step out of line from the 'flock' then suddenly they didn't know.
I'll ask you again, do you admit that some people who hear voices are mentally ill? If you have trouble giving an answer to this question at least have the honesty to admit it, don't just skim over it. It makes it look like you know your position is weak and indefensible.....
You want me to judge or speculate in regards to what I don't know about other people. That's not ok with me. Now if someone is a danger to themselves or others, or can't find a relatively healthy way to cope with society and life, for whatever reason, then perhaps they need help. Perhaps they need supervision. Perhaps meds would help them. But otherwise why should it matter to you what they say they hear? Its not as if you should base your own knowledge of god on what someone else says anyway. I don't want people to take my word for it. I want people to experience it for themselves.
Its the most well known piece of literature on the face of the earth. You'd almost have to live in a cave not to know what its about. I have read a lot of it and none of it made sense until I experienced god. Now that I have experienced god I'm not inclined to read it unless god explicitly tells me to.