K
keith1
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I'm satisfied that you leave open the thought that you are communicating with "yourself" from "yourself" of a future moment-- through the spacetime "window" called the planck zeropoint. Z^0 = >0
Jesus Without The Bible...?
- Thread starter Thoreau
- Start date
Just because people have heard OF it, does not mean they understand it.
Good. Most people haven't read theirs. I guess my question is, why did you need a study bible for it to make sense if god is capable of communicating directly with us? And, if god is capable of communicating directly with us, why the need of a bible at all?
I'm not asking you to pass judgement in regards to specific people. I'm asking you to confirm or deny that you think some of the people who say they hear voices are in fact mentally ill. It's not that hard of a question, do you think all people who claim to hear the voice of god do in fact hear god or do you admit some of them are unwell?
It matters to me because people act on their beliefs and if their beliefs are based on irrational things, things which are due to chemical imbalances within their brain, which no one can predict the effect of, then they are less likely to act rationally and in a good manner. They might act nice now and tomorrow but the fact they hear voices means, in my opinion, there's a lose wire in their brain and it could change from "Be nice" to "Kill them" or "Kill yourself" or whatever. If they didn't hear any voices, via medication, then there'd be no issue with that and they'd have one less irrational thing to base their actions upon.
What is so wrong with wanting people to base their actions on rational, demonstrable things which are anchored in reality?
Ah, now it becomes clear. You think you're in communication with god and god tells you thinks. You're an example of what I was just referring to. You are basing your actions (in this case whether or not you read a particular book) on what you think is a line of communication between you and an invisible being. If that invisible being were Jeff the Sky Pixie who demands you hear your pants on your head and run around screaming "Jeff!" every Tuesday at 3pm you'd be on medication. But because you've phrased it in terms of a mythology other people have phrased their 'funny feelings' in terms of it is socially acceptable. You're basing your actions on something irrational. Of course you have the right to believe whatever stuff you like and if you could completely separate what you believe from how you act then I'd have no problem at all whether you heard Jesus or Jeff the Sky Pixie (pointy be His hat!) but that isn't how it works. What we believe alters how we act and how we act affects other people. I'm glad I live in the UK when I see the enormous harm done to the US school system by the religious right. It's crippled an entire generation's ability to deal with reality and rationality. It's a prime example of people acting on their beliefs, causing measurable harm, despite their beliefs having zero evidence (in the case of Creationism, it's utterly refuted by the evidence).
I'm satisfied that you leave open the thought that you are communicating with "yourself" from "yourself" of a future moment-- through the spacetime "window" called the planck zeropoint. Z^0 = >0
that's new.
yes, which is where the spirit and experience comes in. imo you typically gain more understanding by living through something than you do by reading about something.
how in the hell would i know what is going on inside someone else's head? all i know is what i see behaviorally as a result of that. people aren't mentally ill because of what they hear, they are mentally ill because of what they think and how they behave.
that's what i'm saying about the fruit of the spirit. people hear things all day long from a variety of sources, spiritual and physical, and they have a responsibility to discern. we're not talking about robots here. and we're not talking about a chemical imbalance. mz's family member isn't diagnosed with a chemical imbalance. i don't have a chemical imbalance. what chemical imbalance are you referring to? the one you're making up in your head because you don't want to believe in spirits or in god? well, then i could call you crazy now couldn't i?
oh, and by "reality" you mean "what you believe to be true". right? honey, don't even get me started about crazy, because i happen to think that about 99.9% of the shit that people do and think every day on this planet is fucking crazy. greed is crazy. how much of our behavior is driven by that? lust is crazy. how much of our behavior is driven by that? hate is crazy. bigotry is crazy. destroying the planet is crazy. abusing drugs is crazy. i could go on and on all fucking day. so in the grand scheme of things, i don't think that a guy walking down the street have a conversation seemingly with himself is all that crazy ok? in the grand scheme of things, who fucking cares about that?
what communicates with me is identifiable and it's not jeff the sky pixie. my behavior is not irrational. this communication is not responsible for me causing harm to anyone including myself. quite the opposite actually. i'm an educated and intelligent person, with a successful career, successful and healthy relationships with family and friends, a successful marriage, i maintain a home, and the people around me come to me for help, advice, and would say that i'm an honest, responsible, intelligent, and enlightened person. now there's your evidence, which i'm sure you will blatently ignore because it doesn't jive with what you blindly believe, like some kind of religious person.
Then why do we have a bible? What use is it?
i suppose that having heard of the concept of god and christ enabled me to question. it didn't prompt me to question though.
also as i said, god did tell me to get my bible and read the book of revelations once. the spirit has interpreted some of that to me.
i also think it gives me a more comprehensive understanding of what's happening to me and why and how, and confirmation of what's happening to me and why and how. kind of like if i'm pregnant, and i read "what to expect when you're expecting".
also, being familiar with the concept of god gave me enough faith to reach out to him. i figured if god was what he was supposed to be, then it wouldn't be a problem for him to show himself to me or prove his existence to me, and to let me know what he wanted from me. and if he wasn't willing to do that, then fuck it, you know?
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I'm satisfied that you leave open the thought that you are communicating with "yourself" from "yourself" of a future moment-- through the spacetime "window" called the planck zeropoint. Z^0 = >0
That is interesting . Is there any truth to that ? Is the mathematical part sound or bull crap ? That is what I am thinking , We see our futures . I don't know if it is determination or actually seeing the future? A lot of the shit seems like it is not what you would choose of free will. Makes me think of preordained . I do understand making plans and seeing the plan through, Completing steps to make things happen , but could there be a master plan out side of our selves as individuals . A group plan
New Atheist
Registered Member
Being well known and knowing it, are as starkly different as night and day. Actually it is not as well known as you might think AND there are more than one version. Also, unless you really study it, the bible is not something you can just read and think you understand. Unless, you study the history and the way language was used at the time, its almost useless to even try. Just like any book of consequence reading it (in entirety) more than once will get the point across to you - and YES you are correct that life's experiences need to be factored in. Like you, I personally believe the bible is irrelevant. But that was after studying it.
Since you have discarded the bible as irrelevant, lets then take it from there. Lets also put aside for a moment the medical implications of auditory hallucinations. How did you experience god? was it a direct observation or an inference? has god explicitly told you things in the past? I am curious, did god ask you to become christian?
Just curious.
i suppose that having heard of the concept of god and christ enabled me to question. it didn't prompt me to question though.
also as i said, god did tell me to get my bible and read the book of revelations once. the spirit has interpreted some of that to me.
i also think it gives me a more comprehensive understanding of what's happening to me and why and how, and confirmation of what's happening to me and why and how. kind of like if i'm pregnant, and i read "what to expect when you're expecting".
you should read your bible more Lori . You might figure it out on your own instead of waiting for the spirit to tell you every thing . I will help you with one verse in Timothy 2 verse 19 and 20
for Me it was a hallucination of a burning bush that started when I was about 5 . It was more Tasmanian devil like the imagery of the cartoon , except it was more fire monster like . A whirl wind of fire . It would come to my room just before I would go to sleep at night . I would in a low whisper yell Mom , Mom , Mom and my mother would say go to sleep Mikel there is nothing there . F--ck it has been down hill ever sense
i don't think the bible is irrelevant at all. i just don't find it interesting or even useful to me as a text book. you know, some people use it as a history book, some as a science book, some as a story book, some as a rule book. but i've seen it used as a tool, by the holy spirit. and if i see it as a story, then it's a lot like the story of my life. it seems like when a lot of people read or use the bible, they can't see the forrest through the trees. i think that's intentional a lot of times too. it's not rocket science.
and then, if you want to know about something, and you have a book about it, and you have a close relationship with the author of that book, which do you think would be a better source, the book or the author? i would say the author. not that the book is irrelevant. it wouldn't hurt to read the book i suppose, unless you don't understand what you're reading. the author may refer you to the book during a discussion.
i don't hear spirits with my ears. just to clarify.
i've experienced god in many ways. i've seen, felt, and heard god through a variety of means and media. yes he has explicitly told me things, and no, he did not ask me to become a christian.
i trust i know what i need to know. after all, it's not a problem for god to tell me. for example...
2 Timothy 2:19-20
New International Version (NIV)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use.
the meaning of this scripture, having read it of my own volition seems rather obvious to me. do you have an interpretation that's not so obvious?
LIGHTBEING
Registered Senior Member
Have I given you any indication that I have not? Partial thinking in what regard? My questions to you were legitimate. Any reason why you don't want to answer them?
~LB
How are you struggling with this. I'm asking you if you think there is anyone who thinks they hear god but is actually nuts.
It's a simple yes or no question. Do you think everyone who hears voices is sane and is actually hearing a spirit/deity of some kind or do you accept at least some of those people are just unwell? Yes or freakin' no?
How do they discern though? How can you tell if the voices you hear are in your head or from god? Every stayed away a few days straight? When you don't get enough sleep you start hearing things, seeing things move in the corner of your eyes. Ever had a really bad fever and become incoherent, hearing and seeing things not there? Thinking is a biochemical process and if you mess with those chemicals you can think all kinds of crazy stuff and it not be real. You might believe your brain chemistry is normal but it might not be. Someone with a temperature of 102 is not responsible for what they see and hear, they are ill and they might be convinced what they think they hear is real.
You haven't provided any way of telling between the bat shit crazy and the religious.
And you know this how? And even if you two don't do you think every person in the world who hears voices definitely doesn't? Does no person with a chemical imbalance ever hear voices? That's obviously not true since we put plenty of nutty people into care and some of them scream about the voices they hear.
Again and again I've asked you this and you fail to answer.
If you believed in god and didn't hear voices I'd say you were misguided. If you hear voices, god or Santa or Jeff the Sky Pixie (pointy be His hat!) then I'd say you're mentally unwell. The fact some people frame their illness and delusions in terms of religion just makes things worse. The fact we sometimes can't tell between the religious and the insane means that there are unwell people 'hiding' within the community, who would function better in society if they could get some help. Their illness might not just be making them think they hear Jesus, it might be messing with anger or compulsion issues, with their ability to concentrate or interact with people.
What can be demonstrated to be true, repeatedly and to any observer. Hence why I asked if you could demonstrate you're actually talking to something which exists and aren't just mentally unwell. You've repeatedly failed to provide me with a way to tell the difference. Furthermore the claims of people who say they speak to an all knowing god fail to stand up to testing. Thus it is reasonable to conclude they aren't speaking to god any more than the guy locked up in the nut house is speaking to Jeff the Sky Pixie (pointy be His hat!).
Yes, the world is full of stupid, gullible, uninformed, hateful, selfish tools and at times we all fall into some or all of those categories. Has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you've got a direct line to a supposed deity inside your skull.
Actually those are not crazy, they are the extremes which evolution has wired into us. We wouldn't be here today if we hadn't fought our way to the top of the planet's food chain, often literally. Far back in my ancestral past I'm sure there's a few examples of my ancestor living and passing on his genes because he kills another person (or ape-like creature since he might be that far back) for food or shelter or mate. Back when you lived on the edge of starvation your entire short 20 year long life killing someone else for their food meant you lived another day. Unfortunately now that we have enough to survive on we kill one another over 'luxuries' like gold, diamonds, resources. Perhaps in 50 years when the environment is buggered we'll go back to killing one another for essential things.
If that person hears a voice which is in his head and acts on it then he's likely to do harm because he'll be acting on information not based in reality. It's the same thing with religion. I'd have no problem with faith if people cut compartmentalise their minds but unfortunately they can't and people's beliefs inform their actions and their actions affect people around them. If your beliefs aren't based in reality then you're more likely to do things which lead to unwanted consequences than if you based your actions in information garnered from reality. Religious books by Bronze Age thugs or voices in your head are not based in reality.
How do you know the guy muttering to the voices in his head will be okay tomorrow or the day after? What if the chemical imbalance gets worse, because it is untreated? What if he completely detaches from reality? Mental illness is generally degenerative if untreated. Think about what you said and consider if it were another illness. Cancer starts as a small group of cells doing something a little different and it might not cause symptoms or problems. But if you leave it and say "It doesn't hurt not, it's okay" then it'll bite you in the arse. Perhaps your view on illness is a little skewed, you are American after all and your health care system an utter farce, but illness shouldn't go untreated. Here in the UK we don't have the notion of a 'pre-existing condition' and so people aren't afraid to speak up when they are ill.
And can you prove this in any way?
Doesn't mean you aren't unwell or that it isn't affecting you in some other way or won't become worse in the future.
If the argument "It doesn't cause harm to anyone but myself" were valid then a number of laws to do with drug usage would change.
Suppose someone has enough money to never need to work again and they are an alcoholic. They don't have a job to lose and they can afford their drink. Should they be allowed to drink themselves into oblivion? Smoke crack? Shot heroin?
You might retort that with "But their habit might get out of control and they start stealing or hurting people". Exactly the same can be said for mental illness.
So if someone shot up heroin everyday and could maintain a job etc then you'd be okay with that? If someone is not interacting with anyone else can do they anything they like to themselves?
If someone was hearing voices which told them to cut off their fingers and toes, and then arms and legs would that be okay since they might otherwise be intelligent people who aren't hurting anyone else? There are instances of people hearing such voices or being so nutty as to cut off various bits of their own bodies.
And none of those things don't mean you aren't ill in some way. If someone has a good career and been happily married for 30 years, with kids etc is it okay for them to be a drug addict?
Someone with very slight diabetes might go years without noticing anything but if they don't keep an eye on it then it could get much much worse, when if they'd watched their sugar intake they would never have developed a larger problem.
As I just mentioned, you have a notion of 'pre-existing conditions' in the US. This is partly because its a statistical fact that people with certain conditions will require more medical care and numerous mental problems are on such lists. They come up in questionnaires in regards to family history because problems can develop later in life and you're at increased risk of many things if your parents had them.
Ignoring problems because they seem okay now won't magic them away. And neither will all the prayers to Jebus you can muster.
You have a serious misconception about what 'evidence' is, but then you are religious. Anecdotes, particularly irrelevant ones, don't count.
If you can demonstrate the voice you hear is telling you things you couldn't possibly know then I'd take you seriously. If you can demonstrate that you aren't one of the people who have a chemical imbalance and the resultant mental illness (no matter how slight) results in hearing imaginary voices, then I'd take you seriously. And how would you do that? Evidence. Evidence, that thing which relates to repeatable demonstrations which are independent of observer. The criteria I have is precisely the same as I have for your religious claims, if you can demonstrate it in a repeatable manner which meets the criteria of the scientific method then I'll take you seriously. Until then I simply (and I mean this in complete honesty) cannot tell the difference between someone preaching 'the Truth' because 'the Lord speaks to me' and someone talking bullshit because they are mentally ill.
You got to face your problems head on or be doomed to live the life of conditioning . Does randomness exist ? If you ask Me No way . The person who cuts there own finger off does it for a reason ! Gee I wonder what those reasons could be ? F--ck people are stupid animals . No No No try to make me go to rehab I say No No No
why should we go to school? everything they teach can be taught outside of school..
same concept..the more info the better..
and some ppl need the bible to teach them how to see God..(DAYT vs TFY)
But why couldn't god just implant the knowledge in us. Seriously, why all the mystery? Why all the cryptic writings?