Jesus is not God
- Thread starter Medicine*Woman
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but the son is the father, jesus said so. or are you saying jesus and the bibles a liers
therefore the son would be all knowing.
therefore the son would be all knowing.
In every son there is a father waiting to happen through procreation. But the son cannot be a father until he has left his father and mother to be joined to his wife. Then the son becomes a husband to his wife and the wife bears her husband a son. And so on and so forth. The new father loves his son and the baby son loves his father. God is love. Father to son to son to son and so on and so forth. We are all sons of man but Jesus was the son of God. This is the Christian faith as I see it.
peace
c20
peace
c20
Jenyar said:
Jenyar, for all your intelligence you walked 10 miles and still did not arrive at his point.
God (Jesus) is omniscient isn't he? Therefore we don't decide what Jesus "should know" since we understand he is omniscient. Therefore to claim he doesn't know means he is not omniscient, and if he is not omniscient, it only follow that:
SVRP said:
First of all I don't know which part of this quote are you trying to show me which shows Jesus claiming to be God.
First part which I think, you think shows Jesus claiming to be God is "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."
Jesus was the WAY not the DESTINATION. What else would we expect a prophet of God to say except "I am the 'way' to God's mercy"?
Jesus said; "I am the door" to find the pasture. (Jn.10:9).
A sheep that walks through the "door" will find the pasture.
A sheep that circles around the "door" will never find the pasture.
One who crosses over the "way" will reach the mansion.
Anyone that stops on the "way" and believes the "way" to be the
end of his/her journey, will be out in the open
without any shelter and a roof.
Now I suspect the second part is about seeing the Father, right?
Well Bible says that No one can see the Father and live. If you are claiming that when Phillip asked about seeing the Father and then you take Jesus's reply, then you would be contradicting the Bible, which I suspect you don't intend to do.
So Jesus simply told him that his own actions and miracles should be a sufficient proof of the existence of God without God having to physically come down and let himself be seen every time someone is doubtful. This is equivalent to for example
John 8:19: "Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
John 12:44 "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me."
John 15:23 "He that hateth me hateth my Father also."
Matthew 10:40-41 "He that receiveth you receiveth me (Jesus), and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward."
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father."
John 6:46
Who is this who "is of God" and had seen the Father? Let see the Bible:
"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."
John 8:47.
And
"Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God"
3 John 1:11.
Have all people who have done good also physically seen God?
"And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee
the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou
hast SENT." (John 17:3).
Jesus said; "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater
than his master; neither one who is sent greater than the one
who sent him." (John 13:16).
Jesus said many, many times that he was SENT by God. Which if taken by his own words excludes him from being equal to God.
I Hope this explains the verse.
Peace be upon you
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§outh§tar: Jenyar, for all your intelligence you walked 10 miles and still did not arrive at his point.
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M*W: The 10 miles Jenyar 'walked' is more typical of his tap dancing around the lies of christianity.
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M*W: The 10 miles Jenyar 'walked' is more typical of his tap dancing around the lies of christianity.
pavlosmarcos said:
I shall try my best.
The above are not by Jesus so I don't intend to answer them right now, although if you wish I can talk about this after we are finished discussing the verses you presented which Jesus spoke.
My guess is that the only part which appealed to you, which seems like that Jesus claimed to be God is "I am." Right? Please correct me if I am wrong.
Because you are linking this "I am" with the "I AM" in Exodus. Right? If so then the answer is as follows. But If not then please tell me why you think this verse shows Jesus claiming to be God, for I don't see it.
This is what Jesus said; "...I am (he),
and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me,
I speak these things." (John 8:28). God of Moses that claimed "I AM
THAT I AM" had no instructor or tutor, and, needed no tutoring. If
God had an instructor or an educator, then what would you call that
entity? God's mentor or boss??
As for the existence of Jesus before his birth, please remember
Jesus was anointed by God before he was born. Hence, he was called
Christ (Messiah). Besides Jesus, there were others who were either
anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births. (see Ps.
89:20, Is. 45:1, 61:1; 1 Sam. 24:6). Bible records, God came to prophet Jeremiah and said to him;
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were
born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the
nations." Jeremiah 1:5.
Jesus said to Jews; "Your father Abraham rejoiced
to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad." (John 8:56)
So indeed Jesus was before Abraham, as can be seen in the verse. Jesus had said nothing wrong which he said.
Lets read the same verse in another translation.
"'Truly, truly I tell you,' said Jesus, 'I have existed before Abraham was born'"
The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments, Dr. James Moffatt, John 8:58
and "Jesus said to them, 'I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born'"
The Complete Bible, an American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, John 8:58
When Jews were doubtful about the identity of a particular blind
beggar who had been healed by Jesus, the blind beggar - who was no
more blind, kept saying; "I am (he)" (John 9:9, K.J.V.). Does that
make the blind beggar, God! Further more, the beggar when
questioned about Jesus who had healed him, replied to Jews; "And he
said, "He is a prophet." (John 9:17)
I hope this explains it.
I have already explained John 10:30
This verse is no different than when Jesus says "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."
Please refer to the reply I gave to SVRP about the verse John 14:6-9
Not said by Jesus, If you wish we can discuss this after we are done with the verses which Jesus spoke.
This site should give you the answer. http://www.logon.org/english/s/p229.html
Peace be upon you
786 said:First of all I don't know which part of this quote are you trying to show me which shows Jesus claiming to be God.
Jesus said many, many times that he was SENT by God. Which if taken by his own words excludes him from being equal to God.
I Hope this explains the verse.
Peace be upon you
Thank you for the reply, 786, but you did ask for no commentary when you had responded. Jesus also said...
John 8:19 So they were saying to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also."
John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."
Therefore, to know Jesus was to know God.
John 12:45 "He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?
To see Jesus was to see God
John 12:44 And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me.
John 14:11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
To believe in Jesus was to believe in God
Mark 9:37 "Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me."
To receive Jesus was to receive God
John 15:23 "He who hates Me hates My Father also."
To hate Jesus was to hate God
John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
To honor Jesus was to honor God.
God could only forgive sins yet Jesus forgave sins.
Mark 2:7 "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"
Luke 5:21 The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?"
"If Jesus is not God, then explain...
1. Why Thomas calls Jesus God in John 20:28? (Note, Thomas addresses Jesus specifically.)
2. Why does God call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8?
3. Why does John the apostle state that Jesus was the Word which was God that became flesh (John 1:1,14)?
4. Why is the phrase "Call upon the name of the LORD" (Hebrew, YHWH, i.e., Psalm 116:4) used only of God on the OT, and translated into the Greek in the LXX as "Call upon the name of the LORD (greek, KURIOS)," applied to Jesus in the NT (1 Cor. 1:2) if Jesus is not God in flesh?
5. Why does the apostle John say that Jesus was , "...calling God His own Father, making Himself equal to God," (John 5:18)?
6. What did Jesus say that caused the Pharisees to claim that Jesus was making Himself out to be God.
7. How was it possible for Jesus to know all things (John 21:17)?
8. How can Jesus know all men (John 16:30)?
9. How can Jesus be everywhere (Matt. 28:20)?
10. How can Jesus, the Christ, dwell in you (Col. 1:27)?
11. How can Jesus be the exact representation of the Nature of God (Heb. 1:3)?
12. How can Jesus be eternal (Micah 5:1-2)?
13. How can Jesus be the one who gives eternal life (John 10:27-28)?
14. How can He be our only Lord and Master (Jude 4)?
15. How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) if there is only one God in existence (Isaiah 44:6-8; 45:5)?
16. How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and "God" also be called the Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21?
17. How was Jesus able to raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21)?
18. How can Jesus create all things (Col. 1:16-17), yet it is God who created all things by Himself (Isaiah 44:24)?
19. How can Jesus search the hearts and minds of the people (Rev. 2:23)?
20. Why was Jesus worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6) when He says to worship God only (Matt. 4:10)? (same Greek word for worship is used in each place.)
21. In the OT God was seen (Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-9; Acts 7:2), yet no man can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18). It was not the Father that was seen in the OT (John 6:46). Who, then were they seeing? See John 8:58.
22. Then why did Jesus claim the divine name, "I AM", for Himself in John 8:58? see Exodus 3:14.
23. Then why did Jesus say you must honor him even as you honor the Father (John 5:23)?
24. Then why is it that both the Father and the Son give life (John 5:21)?
25. Then why did Jesus bear witness of Himself (John 8:18; 14:6)? "
(quoted from http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusquestions.htm)
[/QUOTE]Medicine Woman said:
Medicine W. You know they will never get it right. They are ready and MAN made, Altered, Modified and re prints of a Bible. They dont even know who wrote the half of that book> Yet they still call it WORD of God. How ironic, on one hand they admit that it is altered, tampered, modified and on the other hand they call it word of God. Infact Xian God = Paul.
There lies your problem: "God(Jesus)..." is a false premise as you use it. It denies who God is (omniscient) in order to make your argument about Jesus valid, and it denies who Jesus is (the Son) in order to make your argument about God (the Father) valid. We read that Jesus was born a human being, "gained in wisdom and understanding", and had human emotions and fears - they could all be called upon to "invalidate" his statement, "I and the Father are one". It makes your present argument seem arbitrary.§outh§tar said:
You don't expect God(Holy Spirit) to stay in the form of a dove, or argue about the "perfect" or "complete" amount of feathers he should have. What we know about God(Jesus) is only what He has revealed to us, and we are limited by that knowledge. It seems that Jesus only knew what was neccessary for us to know, a slice of omniscience. We do catch tantalizing glimpses and evidence of omniscience with Jesus on a number of occasions - enough to realize that we're not dealing with a philosophical construct like "omnipotence", but with a real person... and this realization has profound consequences that makes mere generalizations like "Jesus was omniscient" gross simplifications. Incidentally, the same is true for God.
You are effectively limiting what we know about God/Jesus/Spirit with your hypothesis. You want Jesus to be limited by "omniscience" - you want to decide what He should/should not know, when that decision would have been made by God "intra-trinitarily". You want God to be limited by "omnipotence"; you expect the Holy Spirit to be limited to the spiritual realm. For some reason you think you understand those properties and how they should manifest better than God himself.
If Jesus had said "neither the Son nor the Father knows" then we might have had to redefine our traditional perspectives. What we're dealing with here is part of the mystery of God.
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Yo Jenyar
Quote Jenyar,
Quote Jenyar:
"If Jesus had said "neither the Son nor the Father knows" then we might have had to redefine our traditional perspectives. What we're dealing with here is part of the mystery of God. "
But that is not what was said. What was said was:
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."
So yes, it is indeed a mystery, but that does not make the statement from the infallible Bible go away. So is god omniscient Jenyar?
Quote Jenyar:
“It seems that Jesus only knew what was necessary for us to know, a slice of omniscience.”
Omniscience does not come in “slices”, just as “infinity” does not come in 100g packs. Yes, yes if god is then truly omniscient, you suppose he could come to the earth in the flesh, and not know what he knew. He could have erased his omniscience for the duration of his earthly stay. But then who would be running the universe, and unfolding the divine plan for that time? This is ludicrous.
Let me put this simply.
1. Is Jesus god?
2. Is god omniscient?
If 1 and 2 is “yes” then,
1. Jesus forgot he was god.
2. Jesus is not god.
Quote Jenyar:
“You are effectively limiting what we know about God/Jesus/Spirit with your hypothesis. You want Jesus to be limited by "omniscience" - you want to decide what He should/should not know, when that decision would have been made by God "intra-trinitarily". You want God to be limited by "omnipotence"; you expect the Holy Spirit to be limited to the spiritual realm. For some reason you think you understand those properties and how they should manifest better than God himself.”
Why does god not do all of us a favour and make it clear from the beginning? The fact is that you yourself do not understand, and the best you can do is claim mystery.
Ahem.
Quote Jenyar,
Quote Jenyar:
"If Jesus had said "neither the Son nor the Father knows" then we might have had to redefine our traditional perspectives. What we're dealing with here is part of the mystery of God. "
But that is not what was said. What was said was:
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."
So yes, it is indeed a mystery, but that does not make the statement from the infallible Bible go away. So is god omniscient Jenyar?
Quote Jenyar:
“It seems that Jesus only knew what was necessary for us to know, a slice of omniscience.”
Omniscience does not come in “slices”, just as “infinity” does not come in 100g packs. Yes, yes if god is then truly omniscient, you suppose he could come to the earth in the flesh, and not know what he knew. He could have erased his omniscience for the duration of his earthly stay. But then who would be running the universe, and unfolding the divine plan for that time? This is ludicrous.
Let me put this simply.
1. Is Jesus god?
2. Is god omniscient?
If 1 and 2 is “yes” then,
1. Jesus forgot he was god.
2. Jesus is not god.
Quote Jenyar:
“You are effectively limiting what we know about God/Jesus/Spirit with your hypothesis. You want Jesus to be limited by "omniscience" - you want to decide what He should/should not know, when that decision would have been made by God "intra-trinitarily". You want God to be limited by "omnipotence"; you expect the Holy Spirit to be limited to the spiritual realm. For some reason you think you understand those properties and how they should manifest better than God himself.”
Why does god not do all of us a favour and make it clear from the beginning? The fact is that you yourself do not understand, and the best you can do is claim mystery.
Ahem.
Yo c20,
Quote c20:
"You misunderstand the sacred relationship between Father and Son. The Father reveals things to the Son at the proper time. Then all things proceed through The Son."
Dude, you are indicating 2 distinct "minds" here. The one "reveals" and the other "hears" and then proceeds. So you are a Gnostic. You embrace the duality of your god.
Ahem.
Quote c20:
"You misunderstand the sacred relationship between Father and Son. The Father reveals things to the Son at the proper time. Then all things proceed through The Son."
Dude, you are indicating 2 distinct "minds" here. The one "reveals" and the other "hears" and then proceeds. So you are a Gnostic. You embrace the duality of your god.
Ahem.
Yo 786,
I mean hypothetically speaking, if one could stand far enough away from the universe, it would (would it?) visually resemble a single point. "One".
Or, if one could peer into the quantum world, everything at the minutest level would constitute the same "stuff". So we and everything in the known universe are made up of the same matter. Is sum of all this "god"?
Ahem.
I mean hypothetically speaking, if one could stand far enough away from the universe, it would (would it?) visually resemble a single point. "One".
Or, if one could peer into the quantum world, everything at the minutest level would constitute the same "stuff". So we and everything in the known universe are made up of the same matter. Is sum of all this "god"?
Ahem.
Judging by how all the favours He has done us have been received, I doubt that would be a favour you would appreciate any better.stretched said:
No, I do not understand the mind of God. Did you expect me to? Ultimately, God is and will always remain a mystery - what I am concerned about is those "favours" as you call it, and that you should at least understand them. You can't start from "basic principles" like "infinity", "omniscience", "omnipotence" and deduce who God is supposed to be from that. You don't have God cornered, so don't get too excited.
Still, you don't even understand my argument. By your logic:
1.God is Spirit
2.Jesus is a man
So: God could not become a man and still remain God. He has to choose.
Really?
Let's examine it from a different perspective:
Romans 8:27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.
In effect, God searches for himself in the person on whom his Spirit rests ("the saints") - reconciling them with Himself "in accordance with God's will". God - Spirit - person - Spirit - God. But in one person is the "fulness of the Deity" found: in Jesus (Col. 2:9). God does not know or search merely by omniscience - it's not a "force" that somehow drives God. It's a deliberate act.Instead of "omniscience" and "omnipotence" I propose "specifiscience" and "specifipotence". Not everything from everything, but something from everything - what I called a "slice". In order to know, God chooses to look outwards, not inwards. He chooses to know us not by what He knows by omniscience, but in a specific relationship with us - by consulting and including the will of those who do His will, in His. With all respect: He limits himself through the medium without losing anything of Himself in it.
What this means for your text, is that in the same way Christ did not call upon his 'authority to know' for events that had not yet been determined (since he himself would be the means of determining them), but looked to God for that authority. He did not assume power, but service. In other words: Jesus did not act 'out of character', and neither did God.
Christ let God's will lead his actions and thoughts in every instance. Sure, he could have escaped death at any stage (Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? - Matt.26:53), but He didn't - for the sake of what needed to be done so that He could eventually come again. Until He had finished his ministry, and had returned to the right hand of God, He was within that will of God - who remains everything you expect God to be, yes.
But Christ is the premise - we derive our knowledge from Him, and that's exactly what the New Testament authors did.
Philippians 2:5-6
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped...
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped...
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Jenyar said:
If they can be called upon to "invalid" his statement of union with the Father then why do you say my argument is flawed instead of the Bible's doctrine? Need I remind you, we have the recorded hearsay of biased believers decades after his death. My point there being I am actually being nice and assuming the Gospels are 200% accurate (which will be my convenient exit if you tear apart my argument far too quickly
)Again assuming He is the one who "revealed" the New Testament, or at least the Gospels. It seems to me that this, instead, is arbitrary and unfounded. Onward we go:
A slice of omniscience can also equal nothing more than human intelligence, if you get my drift.
Please provide these tantalizing evidences of omniscience, as has been supplied in the Gospels "on a number of occasions". The "fact" that we are dealing with a 'real person' makes a claim about his omniscience more wobbly. What could verses like 1 Sam. 16:7, 2 Chron. 16:9, Psa. 119:168, and Psa. 103:14 then mean if they are not to be viewed as contradictory? (Remember: If God limits himself in knowledge for even one moment then those verses become erroneous)
Apparently the council at Nicaea thought the same thing too..
As I showed earlier, I am only going off what the Bible says about the extent of God's knowledge, not what I expect of him.
Or just plain He didn't know? Jeez, you are accusing me of making unfounded assumptions and there you go making one yourself. It is just as possible that this particular anechdote may have been contrived to answer the questions posed by many who impatiently wanted to know WHEN their Messiah was going to return. In fact, the same thing will be seen later on in 2 Peter in a response to scoffers and perhaps backsliders who were getting impatient themselves. That is a FAR FAR FAR more plausible explanation than throwing our hands up in the air and saying it is a mystery, esp. when it contradicts the Bible's own message.
stretched said:
Well I'm not sure that I am answering your question but the answer is as follows.
No, because the thing is God cannot be put into something. Like summing. Another reason could be that God is not matter which can be summed up.
Again I don't know if I answered your question.
Peace be upon you