Jesus is not God
- Thread starter Medicine*Woman
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<i><b>What do you mean god does not change </b></i>
God doesn't lie or change his indentity. If he did, then then that part of him that changed would not be God because I believe God is I AM and eternally existant.
<i><b>
You always have to dig a little deeper to find the complete meaning, and it isn't what Christians would expect. On the surface of it, Jesus was saying that he must be lifted up like the brass serpent Moses made so that all who believed in him would have eternal life. He says nothing of where that eternal life would be spent, of course. </b></i>
Eternal life in the bible is always a referance to heaven in constrast to eternal death in hell.
<i><b>
Jesus' fate was sealed as soon as he made himself like the most high and became an object of worship</b></i>
The apostles did not worship Jesus as God until after his death and resurrection.
<i><b>
He was a member of God's vice squad - a lying spirit in the mouth of a prophet </b></i>
Yes, occasionally God will allow evil spirits, ie. in Kings, to test Isreal but most of the words that Jesus said are common sense. But the Jesus portrayed in the New Testament is obviously not Satan. God does not have some sort "vice squad" that does evil and remains in his presence. All wickedness is removed from his presence (one of the pslams). Are you claiming that Satan was not a murder and not a lier when he clearly participated in Adam's and Cain's sin? So basically your saying that Jesus tested us by fortellings his death and were wrong for believing he fullfilled Isaiah 43:9 "Let all the nations gather together, let the peoples assemble! Who among them could have revealed this, or foretold to us the earlier things? Let them produce witnesses to prove themselves right, the one may hear and say, "It is true" . You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servants whom I have chosen." The stone of Zechariah, "Yes, I will bring my servant the Shoot. Look at the Stone that I have placed before before Joshua, one stone with seven facets. I will engrave its inscription, says the LORD of hosts, and I will take away the guilt of the land in one day."..."For even they who were scornful on that day of small beginnings shall rejoice to see the select stone in the hands of Zerubabel. These seven facets are the eyes of the LORD that range over the whole earth." So this stone is a different stone? I have to admit, your God is unusally cruel?
God doesn't lie or change his indentity. If he did, then then that part of him that changed would not be God because I believe God is I AM and eternally existant.
<i><b>
You always have to dig a little deeper to find the complete meaning, and it isn't what Christians would expect. On the surface of it, Jesus was saying that he must be lifted up like the brass serpent Moses made so that all who believed in him would have eternal life. He says nothing of where that eternal life would be spent, of course. </b></i>
Eternal life in the bible is always a referance to heaven in constrast to eternal death in hell.
<i><b>
Jesus' fate was sealed as soon as he made himself like the most high and became an object of worship</b></i>
The apostles did not worship Jesus as God until after his death and resurrection.
<i><b>
He was a member of God's vice squad - a lying spirit in the mouth of a prophet </b></i>
Yes, occasionally God will allow evil spirits, ie. in Kings, to test Isreal but most of the words that Jesus said are common sense. But the Jesus portrayed in the New Testament is obviously not Satan. God does not have some sort "vice squad" that does evil and remains in his presence. All wickedness is removed from his presence (one of the pslams). Are you claiming that Satan was not a murder and not a lier when he clearly participated in Adam's and Cain's sin? So basically your saying that Jesus tested us by fortellings his death and were wrong for believing he fullfilled Isaiah 43:9 "Let all the nations gather together, let the peoples assemble! Who among them could have revealed this, or foretold to us the earlier things? Let them produce witnesses to prove themselves right, the one may hear and say, "It is true" . You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servants whom I have chosen." The stone of Zechariah, "Yes, I will bring my servant the Shoot. Look at the Stone that I have placed before before Joshua, one stone with seven facets. I will engrave its inscription, says the LORD of hosts, and I will take away the guilt of the land in one day."..."For even they who were scornful on that day of small beginnings shall rejoice to see the select stone in the hands of Zerubabel. These seven facets are the eyes of the LORD that range over the whole earth." So this stone is a different stone? I have to admit, your God is unusally cruel?
When you wrote the sentence: “God doesn’t change” I don’t know how I was suppose to get “God doesn’t lie” out of it? Why not just write: “God doesn’t lie?”
So that just leaves “God doesn’t change his identity”. So why not just write that instead of writing “god doesn’t change” and expecting me to understand that as meaning “god doesn’t change his identity”? I think people just like the sound of “god doesn’t change” as I have heard it from a number of Muslims and Christians. But it really has little if any meaning. That is the sentence “God doesn’t change”. I’m not even sure if it makes any sense – logically.
So, as that isn't what you mean, and what you REALLY meant was: god doesn’t lie or change its identity? Well, I think I understand the fibbing part. Which leaves ID.
What do you mean god doesn’t change its identity?
<i><b>When you wrote the sentence: “God doesn’t change” I don’t know how I was suppose to get “God doesn’t lie” out of it? Why not just write: “God doesn’t lie?” </b></i>
I don't think "God doesn't change" was the main point of what I was saying. When someone says "God doesn't change" they usually mean God's nature doesn't change. The traits that God has don't change.
<i><b>think people just like the sound of “god doesn’t change” as I have heard it from a number of Muslims and Christians.</b></i>
Well it's in the bible. When someone says "God doesn't change" they don't mean God is a rock that doesn't speak but a Rock that does speak.
I don't think "God doesn't change" was the main point of what I was saying. When someone says "God doesn't change" they usually mean God's nature doesn't change. The traits that God has don't change.
<i><b>think people just like the sound of “god doesn’t change” as I have heard it from a number of Muslims and Christians.</b></i>
Well it's in the bible. When someone says "God doesn't change" they don't mean God is a rock that doesn't speak but a Rock that does speak.
Yes, I was almost agreeing with you - up to the point where you stopped differentiating between the prophecy and the fulfillment.
Jesus was a man that fit the profile - and not only the messianic profile, but a few others as well, notably the suffering servant and God's salvation. Priest, prophet and king. Heathens did not create him, and neither did the Gnostics. The differences are too specific and intentional. See Was the NT influenced by Pagan religions?.
You are blowing it out of proportion. The same is true for Judaism. Even though they had thousands of years of religion and prophets, most of the Hebrew Bible was only fixed after the destruction of the second temple, and the rest of it only after the destruction of the third. To say that beliefs only became doctrinal when they were canonized (i.e. accepted on paper) is a modern information age fallacy. For the most part, oral tradition was authorative, while the written form was secondary. Things were only written down when their corruption became a threat.
For a better perspective on how the messianic expectancy started, archaeologically (as opposed to theoretically) I suggest you read this as an introduction.
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WildBlueYonder
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WildBlueYonder
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Jesus is Lord
You can't be talking about Tomasito, since this was his first post (count the posts by his name), but as for the rest of us Christians, why it’s our duty; yes, day in, day out
If Jesus existed, he was as much the son of god as anyone else.
Why "god" though?
I mean, what a useless, pointless word that people work themselves up over. I think the word is entirely sickening as it carries with it the malice, ignorance and stubborness of an entire fucking planet.
Fuck "god".
Why "god" though?
I mean, what a useless, pointless word that people work themselves up over. I think the word is entirely sickening as it carries with it the malice, ignorance and stubborness of an entire fucking planet.
Fuck "god".
No kidding..
Jesus was not god, I am!!
at least that is what my girlfriend calls me at nights sometimes..
(oooo!! god, ohh god) you get the drift..
At least I'm happy the guy was named Jesus!!,
It be terrible to hear my girlfriend yell (Alliya Mohammad) or something...
As for the bables interpretation of a Messiah, well that is another mess of a (beign) we have no proof existed or not. Doubtfull some Romans soldier fell sleep when Jesus walked out of the cave, back in those days guards that fell asleep were killed.
On another note, lots of the parables Jesus spoke about were all ready written by other authors, remember he spent a while in Egypt this been were he got educated.
Jesus was not god, I am!!
at least that is what my girlfriend calls me at nights sometimes..
(oooo!! god, ohh god) you get the drift..
At least I'm happy the guy was named Jesus!!,
It be terrible to hear my girlfriend yell (Alliya Mohammad) or something...
As for the bables interpretation of a Messiah, well that is another mess of a (beign) we have no proof existed or not. Doubtfull some Romans soldier fell sleep when Jesus walked out of the cave, back in those days guards that fell asleep were killed.
On another note, lots of the parables Jesus spoke about were all ready written by other authors, remember he spent a while in Egypt this been were he got educated.
I've drag this out, as we have some new fundis.
I thought he would be good to see what they would say to it's premis.
I hope you dont mind M*W.
I thought he would be good to see what they would say to it's premis.
I hope you dont mind M*W.
Man is not God. How could man be God? Can man create the butterfly? No!
Man begins as a seed. The seed is sown. Man is born, male and female.
Jesus 'came' as a human being. From where did he come? To whom was he born and to whom did he go to? Jesus said "Why do you call me 'good'.No one is Good except God alone."
Jesus was killed. Why was Jesus killed for numbering himself with all flesh? Jesus saw God in nature and being a part of nature, Jesus saw God in his self too. Man after all is more important to us than the butterfly.
Jesus was a man. Like you. But he sought God with his whole being from an early age such was his nature to do. He realised that his act of searching bore fruit. When he was baptised by John, a voice came from Heaven saying "This is my son, with whom I am well pleased"
Now if God calls you 'His son', who the hell is man to argue?
In fact it was this very reason that Jesus was killed. God's simple declaration destroyed all of man's reasoning and also their hopes in the little kingdom's they had built to serve themselves using fear of God's almighty wrath against the poor to keep them under the thumb, not realising of course that they were to reap exactly what they had sown, whilst of course the poor would go free with Jesus.
We often, like the Pharisee's and authorities of Jesus' day, think that our rules are set in stone and we try and force other's to live by them because it suits us to have power of people. But God's laws, the ones that were set in stone, were fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ. When Jesus was baptised and God spoke about his feelings for Jesus, it is written that a dove descended from Heaven and rested upon Jesus. The Holy Spirit then completely ruled in Jesus' heart, the Spirit itself completely obedient to God's will. The Spirit is so lovely that when man receives Him, that man cannot help but be carried on it's strength such is it's power. Now Jesus who knew scipture inside and out was prompted by the Spirit to fulfill the prophecies written about him. Now the Spirit was encouraging Jesus to surrender without a fight, to humbly turn the other cheek. The act of doing this on a daily basis consistently proved to Jesus that it was The Way, The Truth and The Life. Jesus' faith was more than proved to be justified with each miracle that he performed. Jesus was as much a witness to the miracle as the people around him were which is why he could never take credit for them but instead always gave the Glory to God who was working through him by the Holy Spirit which he received.
Jesus was sent by God to suffer. To be God's suffering servant. Jesus knew that this role would not be understood by the world but to him it was revealed in it's truest glory. If you are someone's suffering servant, tirelessly serving their master's needs, how much does that master come to rely upon the servant for his own rest? Jesus knew that God valued him {This is my Son in Whom I am well pleased} and it was this relationship that was between them through Jesus, The Holy Spirit and God The Father, The Most High God, King Of Kings that so richly brought God's love into the world {For God so loved the world ...}.
When we see the three of them working together throughout the Gospels we can quite easily see the relationship.
The Holy Spirit convicts Jesus of Truth, Jesus believes the Spirit and follows the conviction that He is doing the will of the One who sent him, even unto death by crucifixion. The Spirit continuosly prompting him with scripture that takes Jesus to his final purpose, which is to say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do!".
and having not heard a reply, Jesus is alone, "Why have you forsaken me" and then "It is done". Jesus is who God says He is. "My son in whom I am well pleased." God doesnt change. He is a constant. Therefore I advise you to turn to Him who said "It is done" because in Him and only in Him is it actually done. He holds the keys so to speak. As He says "I am the first and the last", yes Jesus was the first and the last who may say "It is done" and in Him, in His heart, the sinner is justified, cleansed through His blood. Never before has man been justified in the flesh but Jesus did this. He took the full force of the law for man's sins and did not blame man even though he was just a man. This proves that in Him we are forgiven. This is why the Christian wants to know Jesus. It is about being sanctified through His death and raised to life with Him even as He was raised to life. Jesus knew that He wasn't doing his own will. Love does not seek it's own way after all. Jesus was being convivted by the Holy Spirit of his purpse, the Purpose that had been given him by the one who sent him, that we may know God's heart for us. That God , The Most High God, The King of King would send his own Son into the world to be unto Him a suffering servant that would serve to justify man by His offering. Jesus' offering? Well "Not my will be done, but your will be done". And with that He was crucified. But death could not keep Him. Obviously. He is God's son after all. God said.
peace
c20
Man begins as a seed. The seed is sown. Man is born, male and female.
Jesus 'came' as a human being. From where did he come? To whom was he born and to whom did he go to? Jesus said "Why do you call me 'good'.No one is Good except God alone."
Jesus was killed. Why was Jesus killed for numbering himself with all flesh? Jesus saw God in nature and being a part of nature, Jesus saw God in his self too. Man after all is more important to us than the butterfly.
Jesus was a man. Like you. But he sought God with his whole being from an early age such was his nature to do. He realised that his act of searching bore fruit. When he was baptised by John, a voice came from Heaven saying "This is my son, with whom I am well pleased"
Now if God calls you 'His son', who the hell is man to argue?
In fact it was this very reason that Jesus was killed. God's simple declaration destroyed all of man's reasoning and also their hopes in the little kingdom's they had built to serve themselves using fear of God's almighty wrath against the poor to keep them under the thumb, not realising of course that they were to reap exactly what they had sown, whilst of course the poor would go free with Jesus.
We often, like the Pharisee's and authorities of Jesus' day, think that our rules are set in stone and we try and force other's to live by them because it suits us to have power of people. But God's laws, the ones that were set in stone, were fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ. When Jesus was baptised and God spoke about his feelings for Jesus, it is written that a dove descended from Heaven and rested upon Jesus. The Holy Spirit then completely ruled in Jesus' heart, the Spirit itself completely obedient to God's will. The Spirit is so lovely that when man receives Him, that man cannot help but be carried on it's strength such is it's power. Now Jesus who knew scipture inside and out was prompted by the Spirit to fulfill the prophecies written about him. Now the Spirit was encouraging Jesus to surrender without a fight, to humbly turn the other cheek. The act of doing this on a daily basis consistently proved to Jesus that it was The Way, The Truth and The Life. Jesus' faith was more than proved to be justified with each miracle that he performed. Jesus was as much a witness to the miracle as the people around him were which is why he could never take credit for them but instead always gave the Glory to God who was working through him by the Holy Spirit which he received.
Jesus was sent by God to suffer. To be God's suffering servant. Jesus knew that this role would not be understood by the world but to him it was revealed in it's truest glory. If you are someone's suffering servant, tirelessly serving their master's needs, how much does that master come to rely upon the servant for his own rest? Jesus knew that God valued him {This is my Son in Whom I am well pleased} and it was this relationship that was between them through Jesus, The Holy Spirit and God The Father, The Most High God, King Of Kings that so richly brought God's love into the world {For God so loved the world ...}.
When we see the three of them working together throughout the Gospels we can quite easily see the relationship.
The Holy Spirit convicts Jesus of Truth, Jesus believes the Spirit and follows the conviction that He is doing the will of the One who sent him, even unto death by crucifixion. The Spirit continuosly prompting him with scripture that takes Jesus to his final purpose, which is to say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do!".
and having not heard a reply, Jesus is alone, "Why have you forsaken me" and then "It is done". Jesus is who God says He is. "My son in whom I am well pleased." God doesnt change. He is a constant. Therefore I advise you to turn to Him who said "It is done" because in Him and only in Him is it actually done. He holds the keys so to speak. As He says "I am the first and the last", yes Jesus was the first and the last who may say "It is done" and in Him, in His heart, the sinner is justified, cleansed through His blood. Never before has man been justified in the flesh but Jesus did this. He took the full force of the law for man's sins and did not blame man even though he was just a man. This proves that in Him we are forgiven. This is why the Christian wants to know Jesus. It is about being sanctified through His death and raised to life with Him even as He was raised to life. Jesus knew that He wasn't doing his own will. Love does not seek it's own way after all. Jesus was being convivted by the Holy Spirit of his purpse, the Purpose that had been given him by the one who sent him, that we may know God's heart for us. That God , The Most High God, The King of King would send his own Son into the world to be unto Him a suffering servant that would serve to justify man by His offering. Jesus' offering? Well "Not my will be done, but your will be done". And with that He was crucified. But death could not keep Him. Obviously. He is God's son after all. God said.
peace
c20
Randolfo: Originally posted by Medicine*Woman - is this your sense of humor, your true belief or a Freudian slip?
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M*W: What do you think?
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M*W: What do you think?
W
what768
Guest
Jesus is an aspect of god. Like smoke from fire, like the wind in space, like ice in water, like dust on earth - the word, "logos". The creative power of the universe, without which nothing is created. Flesh is flesh, and the flesh of jesus was "human", but in the inside he is "the word of god".
786 are you refering to the qu-ran, because you are right, if that is the case.
however you are wrong if you meant he bible, "I and my father are one".John 10:30
these are jesus own words, I think he believed he was god.
and what768 there is no wind in space, or any god anywhere.
however you are wrong if you meant he bible, "I and my father are one".John 10:30
these are jesus own words, I think he believed he was god.
and what768 there is no wind in space, or any god anywhere.
This is the dilema for those who profess to be Christians. How can Jesus be God?
The catch of course is that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and "There is none righteous, no not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
When Paul says this (he is quoting the Psalms) he puts us all in two categories - God and everyone else. Everyone is a sinner except God. God alone is righteous. Where then is Jesus? Is he God or part of everyone else. If Jesus is not God then he is an unrighteous sinner. If Jesus is not God then he cannot be without sin and thus must die for his own sins - he cannot die for everyone else's sins. The whole Christian faith teeters on this one thought - is Jesus God.
The answer for all Christians MUST be that Jesus IS God. Those who claim to follow God (Yehovah) but deny that Jesus is God are only kidding themselves. We call these denominations Cults - Mormans, Jehovah's Witness, The Way. (What then are Jews?)
The catch of course is that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and "There is none righteous, no not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
When Paul says this (he is quoting the Psalms) he puts us all in two categories - God and everyone else. Everyone is a sinner except God. God alone is righteous. Where then is Jesus? Is he God or part of everyone else. If Jesus is not God then he is an unrighteous sinner. If Jesus is not God then he cannot be without sin and thus must die for his own sins - he cannot die for everyone else's sins. The whole Christian faith teeters on this one thought - is Jesus God.
The answer for all Christians MUST be that Jesus IS God. Those who claim to follow God (Yehovah) but deny that Jesus is God are only kidding themselves. We call these denominations Cults - Mormans, Jehovah's Witness, The Way. (What then are Jews?)
what768 said:
And He calls us brothers. Imagine being with Him where He is. All of us as Temples For the Holy Ghost sharing the Bread of Life, a flowing river , love unto us purified and holy, sanctified and justified and glorified by The Word.
peace
c20