Jesus is not God

[what768]

786 are you refering to the qu-ran, because you are right, if that is the case.
however you are wrong if you meant he bible, "I and my father are one".John 10:30
these are jesus own words, I think he believed he was god.

No, no, I don't "refer" to anything! But yes, Jesus is "god"! Only "his body" was flesh! He was an aspect of "god", that also means that he is "god".

and what768 there is no wind in space, or any god anywhere.

Hehe, I thought that sounded weird. Actually I meant the wind on "earth", but I had to say space, and earth is in space too!

Yeah, I know there is no "god" anywhere. Not the kind you're thinking of. I wouldn't believe in him either if I was you!

 

[786]

786 are you refering to the qu-ran, because you are right, if that is the case.
however you are wrong if you meant he bible, "I and my father are one".John 10:30
these are jesus own words, I think he believed he was god.

and what768 there is no wind in space, or any god anywhere.

I think I had addressed this verse in another thread. But oh well...Here I go again.

JOHN 10:30 "I and the Father are one [hen]." (NASU)

What did he mean by this declaration? Was he proclaiming that he was co-equal and co-eternal with the Father? Was Jesus saying that he and the Father were of the same essence or substance? Just what exactly was he trying to convey?

First, let's look at the Greek word hen (one).

In Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament, the late Professor Vincent states that hen, the Greek word translated "one" in John 10:30, is "the neuter, not the masculine είς, one person" (p. 197, vol. II).

Regarding this statement by Jesus, the Abingdon Bible Commentary says: "V. 30 does not affirm a metaphysical unity, but a moral, and we must not read the later creeds into the words" (p. 1079).

In A Commentary, Critical, Experimental, and Practical, Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown write of this verse:

Our language admits not of the precision of the original in this great saying, 'We (two Persons) are One (Thing).' Perhaps 'one interest' expresses nearly, though not quite, the purport of the saying. (p. 414, vol. III, part I)

The use of hen in John 10:30 clearly indicates that Jesus was not claiming that he and the Father were the same being. An examination of how the same Greek word hen ("one") is used in other Scriptures will help us see what Christ did intend to convey by his statement.

Let's look at Jesus's prayer to the Father on the night before his crucifixion. In this supplication, he speaks several times of the state of being "one":

JOHN 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be ONE [hen] even as We are. (NASU)

Here Jesus prays that God the Father would keep his disciples in His name.

How was it possible for Jesus's disciples to be ONE in the same way that Jesus and the Father were ONE? Are you saying that Jesus is asking to make the desciples part of the Trinity? I think you and me, and everyone else knows that that answer is NO!. Well lets not stop here. A litte later. Jesus is praying and says:

JOHN 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in me through their word; 21 that they all may be ONE [hen], as You, Father, are in me, and I in You; that they also may be ONE [hen] in us, that the world may believe that You sent me. 22 And the glory which You gave me I have given them, that they may be ONE [hen] just as we are ONE [hen]: 23 I in them, and You in me; that they may be made perfect in one [eis], and that the world may know that You have sent me, and have loved them as You have loved me." (NKJV)

I think it is very clear. We now know how Jesus and Father were ONE. One in message, I would say.

Peace be upon you

 

[SVRP]

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,


http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusquestions.htm

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Hahn/isjesusgod.htm

 

[786]

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,


http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusquestions.htm

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Hahn/isjesusgod.htm

Show me where JESUS claims to be God?

I am not interested in anyones comments. Especially on something so big.

Peace be upon you

 

[c20H25N3o]

Show me where JESUS claims to be God?

I am not interested in anyones comments. Especially on something so big.

Peace be upon you

Easy

John 5:39-44
39"You search the Scriptures because you believe they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40Yet you refuse to come to me so that I can give you this eternal life.
41"Your approval or disapproval means nothing to me, 42because I know you don't have God's love within you. 43For I have come to you representing my Father, and you refuse to welcome me, even though you readily accept others who represent only themselves. 44No wonder you can't believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don't care about the honor that comes from God alone.

That little word 'me' is what you unbelievers trip over, time and time again.
Jesus' words are for life, eternal life, not just for Christmas.

peace

c20

 

[anonymous2]

Easy

John 5:39-44
39"You search the Scriptures because you believe they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40Yet you refuse to come to me so that I can give you this eternal life.
41"Your approval or disapproval means nothing to me, 42because I know you don't have God's love within you. 43For I have come to you representing my Father, and you refuse to welcome me, even though you readily accept others who represent only themselves. 44No wonder you can't believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don't care about the honor that comes from God alone.

That little word 'me' is what you unbelievers trip over, time and time again.
Jesus' words are for life, eternal life, not just for Christmas.

This quote was pertaining to Jews, although you could apply it to "unbelievers" as a whole if you wish. Jews are commanded to follow the law of Moses, and Deuteronomy says even a prophet who appears works signs, but leads you away from God, to kill that prophet. If Jesus wouldn't have spoken things contrary to the law of Moses, and claimed to be God, then he wouldn't have been delivered up to the Romans for crucifixion. Yes, this could be a Jewish view. I'm not saying it's my view. I don't know if the NT is completely historically accurate.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

c20H25N3o: Easy

John 5:39-44
39"You search the Scriptures because you believe they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40Yet you refuse to come to me so that I can give you this eternal life.
41"Your approval or disapproval means nothing to me, 42because I know you don't have God's love within you. 43For I have come to you representing my Father, and you refuse to welcome me, even though you readily accept others who represent only themselves. 44No wonder you can't believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don't care about the honor that comes from God alone.

That little word 'me' is what you unbelievers trip over, time and time again. Jesus' words are for life, eternal life, not just for Christmas.
*************
M*W: Not written by Jesus, and not written by Paul. Who was the beloved disciple? Who was the beloved disciple writing this to?

Recent biblical archeologists and scholars believe the Gospel of John, the Beloved Disciple, to be written by Mary Magdalene about 90-95AD. Mary knew Jesus intimately and loved him with all of her being. She was a royal woman of independent means. She wasn't the wanton whore christianity made her out to be. In this passage, Mary is talking to the other disciples who lived at this late time after Jesus. She is basically calling Paul a liar. MM is admitting that the gospel of John points to her, not Jesus. MM was a mystic along the same lines as Jesus was a mystic. MM also refers to the seven seas or the seven de-mons of the world. All life comes from the seas which MM represented. Jesus cast out seven de-mons (seas of the world) from MM. It truly is MM who gives all life -- eternal life from the sea. MM was talking to Peter and Paul who she feared and told Jesus she feared them.

The little word 'me' refers to Mary Magdalene, the symbolic seven seas de mon (of the world) and also the seven de mons by the sea, or Septimania (seven heads) of the Languadoc in France. MM's words were about eternal life, which is what Jesus taught but did NOT die for. It was MM who was the savior -- not Jesus.

 

[c20H25N3o]

c20H25N3o: Easy

John 5:39-44
39"You search the Scriptures because you believe they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40Yet you refuse to come to me so that I can give you this eternal life.
41"Your approval or disapproval means nothing to me, 42because I know you don't have God's love within you. 43For I have come to you representing my Father, and you refuse to welcome me, even though you readily accept others who represent only themselves. 44No wonder you can't believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don't care about the honor that comes from God alone.

That little word 'me' is what you unbelievers trip over, time and time again. Jesus' words are for life, eternal life, not just for Christmas.
*************
M*W: Not written by Jesus, and not written by Paul. Who was the beloved disciple? Who was the beloved disciple writing this to?

Recent biblical archeologists and scholars believe the Gospel of John, the Beloved Disciple, to be written by Mary Magdalene about 90-95AD. Mary knew Jesus intimately and loved him with all of her being. She was a royal woman of independent means. She wasn't the wanton whore christianity made her out to be. In this passage, Mary is talking to the other disciples who lived at this late time after Jesus. She is basically calling Paul a liar. MM is admitting that the gospel of John points to her, not Jesus. MM was a mystic along the same lines as Jesus was a mystic. MM also refers to the seven seas or the seven de-mons of the world. All life comes from the seas which MM represented. Jesus cast out seven de-mons (seas of the world) from MM. It truly is MM who gives all life -- eternal life from the sea. MM was talking to Peter and Paul who she feared and told Jesus she feared them.

The little word 'me' refers to Mary Magdalene, the symbolic seven seas de mon (of the world) and also the seven de mons by the sea, or Septimania (seven heads) of the Languadoc in France. MM's words were about eternal life, which is what Jesus taught but did NOT die for. It was MM who was the savior -- not Jesus.

Oh please. Why would MM exalt herself above her Lord? She called Jesus her Lord. Now why would she do that? Did Jesus rebuke her for calling Him that? Of course not! Given that Jesus is who He is, why would MM be afraid of anyone given that Jesus would extol the virtue of "Do not be afraid of those who can hurt the body and do no more."
Why would a savior be afraid of anyone except God Himself? Come on M*W. I tell you the truth MM herself would say she didn't know you whilst you preach such blatant rubbish about her Lord.

peace

c20

 

[heart]

I tell you the truth MM herself would say she didn't know you whilst you preach such blatant rubbish about her Lord.

How can you testify this is truth? Is it because you personally know MM?

 

[pavlosmarcos]

I think I had addressed this verse in another thread. But oh well...Here I go again.

I think it is very clear. We now know how Jesus and Father were ONE. One in message, I would say.

Peace be upon you

can you please explain these from jesus, as they all say he's god.

this is to make it clear of gods intentions
Jn.1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Jn.1:14
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."

and in jesus'es own words.


Jn.8:58
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
Jn.10:30-31
"I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him."
Jn.10:38-39 this is your favourite
"The Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him."
Jn.20:28
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God."
Col.2:8-9
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
Titus 2:13
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."
Phil.2:6
" Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."
Heb.1:8
"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
Rev.1:17
"Fear not; I am the first and the last."
Rev.22:13
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

I hope that explains that jesus believed he was god.

 

[c20H25N3o]

How can you testify this is truth? Is it because you personally know MM?

Yes I may through the Word of God.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

c20H25N3o: Oh please. Why would MM exalt herself above her Lord?
*************
M*W: Because she continued to live to a ripe old age after Jesus was gone.
*************
c20: She called Jesus her Lord. Now why would she do that?
*************
M*W: That was commonly what a woman called her husband in those days.
*************
c20: Did Jesus rebuke her for calling Him that? Of course not! Given that Jesus is who He is, why would MM be afraid of anyone given that Jesus would extol the virtue of "Do not be afraid of those who can hurt the body and do no more."
*************
On page 10 of The Gospel of Mary Magdalene, I quote the following:

Peter: "Sister, we know that the Teacher loved you differently from other women. Tell us whatever you remember of any words he told you which we have not yet heard."

MM: "I will now speak to you of that which has not been give to you to hear. I had a vision of the Teacher, and I said to him,
'Lord I see you now in this vision.'"

Jesus answered: "You are blessed, for the sight of me does not disturb you. There where is the nous, lies the treasure.'

MM: 'Lord, when someone meets you in a Moment of vision, is it through the soul [psyche] that they see, or is it through the Spirit [nous/pneuma]?"

Jesus answered: "It is neither through the soul nor the spirit, but the nous between the two which sees the vision, and it is this which [...pages 11-14 are lost texts]."

Page 17 of The Gospel of Mary Magdalene, I quote:

Peter: "How is it possible that the Teacher talked in this manner to a woman about secrets of which we ourselves are ignorant? Must we change our customs, and listen to this woman? Did he really choose her, and prefer her to us?"

MM: "Then Mary wept, and answered him: 'My brother Peter, what can you be thinnking? Do you believe that this is just my own imagination, that I invented this vision? Or do you believe that I would lie about our Teacher?"

Levi: "Peter, you have always been hot-tempered, and now we see you repudiating a woman, just as our adversaries do. Yet if the Teacher held her worthy, who are you to reject her? Surely the Teacher knew her very well, for he loved her more than us. Therefore, let us atone, and become fully human [anthropos], so that the Teacher can take root in us. Let us grow as he demanded of us., and walk forth to spread the gospel, without trying to lay down any rules and laws other than those he witnessed."
---
In the Gospel of Thomas, Simon Peter said to Thomas:

"Let Mary leave us, for women are not fit for the Life."

Jesus answered: "See, I have been guiding her so as to make her into a human [Anthropos']. She, too will become a living breath like you. Any woman who becomes a human will enter the Kingdom of God."

The Anthropos Human was made of body (soma), soul (psyche) and spirit (nous).
---
Andrew: [Speaking to his brothers] "Tell me, what do you think of these things she has been telling us? As for me, I do not believe that the Teacher would speak like this. These ideas are too different from those we have knokwn."

Peter: "How is it possible that the Teacher talked in this manner, with a woman, about secrets of which we ourselves are ignorant? Must we change our customs, and listen to this woman? Did he really choose her, and prefer her to us?"
---
The apostles named here were against Jesus' relationship with MM. MM continued to bear witness of the Teacher, but the apostles despised her and what Jesus was to have told them.
*************
c20: Why would a savior be afraid of anyone except God Himself? Come on M*W. I tell you the truth MM herself would say she didn't know you whilst you preach such blatant rubbish about her Lord.
*************
M*W: I've copied exact translations from the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Philip. MM told the truth, but the male apostles didn't want to believe her. The Teacher was not afraid of anyone. He lived through MM. She was the one true voice of the Teacher. Unless you could bring yourself to know that, you will never know the Teacher. I suggest you do some reading of the Gnostic Gospels. That is the only way you will ever understand the true followers of Jesus.

peace

c20[/QUOTE]

 

[786]

Easy

John 5:39-44
39"You search the Scriptures because you believe they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 40Yet you refuse to come to me so that I can give you this eternal life.
41"Your approval or disapproval means nothing to me, 42because I know you don't have God's love within you. 43For I have come to you representing my Father, and you refuse to welcome me, even though you readily accept others who represent only themselves. 44No wonder you can't believe! For you gladly honor each other, but you don't care about the honor that comes from God alone.

That little word 'me' is what you unbelievers trip over, time and time again.
Jesus' words are for life, eternal life, not just for Christmas.

peace

c20

You have got to be joking me. Yes he is the Messiah who was prophesied so yes the scripture does point to him. There is nothing about claiming to be God.

Peace be unto you

 

[786]

can you please explain these from jesus, as they all say he's god.

this is to make it clear of gods intentions
Jn.1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Jn.1:14
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."

and in jesus'es own words.


Jn.8:58
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
Jn.10:30-31
"I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him."
Jn.10:38-39 this is your favourite
"The Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him."
Jn.20:28
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God."
Col.2:8-9
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
Titus 2:13
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."
Phil.2:6
" Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."
Heb.1:8
"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
Rev.1:17
"Fear not; I am the first and the last."
Rev.22:13
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

Well these verses (Jn.20:28, Col.2:8-9, Titus 2:13, Phil.2:6) you presented were not said by Jesus.

As for these vereses (Jn.8:58, Jn.10:38-39, Heb.1:8, Rev.1:17, Rev.22:13) I have very good answers which I shall present when I have time.

I can spent a lot of time explaining the answers but in the mean time please read the verses below and then tell me what you think.

I hope that explains that jesus believed he was god.

1. "...I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."
John.14:28

2. "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every
man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of
Christ." 1 Corin. 11:3

3. "Behold, My servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My
soul is well pleased; I will put My Spirit upon him, and he shall
proclaim justice to the Gentiles." Matthew 12:18

4. "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers,
has glorified His Servant Jesus..." Acts 3:13.

5. "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy
holy Servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint..." Acts 4:27.

6. "For you first, God raised up His Servant, and sent him to bless
you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways." Acts 3:26

7. "And you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God."
1 Corin 3:23.

8. "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." John 17:3

9. "And Jesus said to him, `Why do you call me good? No one is good
except God alone." Mark 10:18

10. "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Matthew 24:36

11. "Jesus said to her, `Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet
ascended to the Father; but go to my bretheren, and say to them,
`I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"
John 20:17

12. "And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and he
knelt down and began to pray, saying, `Father, if Thou art willing,
remove this cup from me; yet not my will, but Thine be done."
Luke 22:41-42

So no, Jesus (pbuh) never thought he was God.

Peace be upon you

 

[SVRP]

Show me where JESUS claims to be God?

I am not interested in anyones comments. Especially on something so big.

Peace be upon you

John 14: 6-9 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'? (NASB)

 

[pixel]

As a former devout Catholic and wannabe-nun, I can tell you that it's nuts to think of Jesus as God, as in, "more God than anyone else". Even some of the self-inflating quotations sometimes ascribed to him (see other posts) seem to me to be totally inconsistent with his other teachings. Seems like rubbish tacked onto the original teachings, really. (I think Jesus was extraordinary and ahead of his time, though.)

 

[stretched]

Yo 786,

Quote786:
"We now know how Jesus and Father were ONE."

Mat 24:36
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

Why then does Jesus (god) not know when his return wil be? He says that only his father knows. This clearly indicates a duality. And no, the trinity scenario does not answer this question. This indicates a clear duality.

Ahem.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Jesus knew the Father in His inner being. God was in Him when He received the Holy Spirit. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost were made one inside of Jesus. Jesus was the Word of God made flesh. Jesus' Sonship and the relationship he had with His Father through the Spirit is what God intended for us. He wants us to receive the Spirit to that we enjoy the same spirit of sonship as sons of adoption. The Holy Spirit is available to all those who believe in Jesus. This is the Christian faith.

peace

c20

 

[786]

Yo 786,

Quote786:
"We now know how Jesus and Father were ONE."

Mat 24:36
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

Why then does Jesus (god) not know when his return wil be? He says that only his father knows. This clearly indicates a duality. And no, the trinity scenario does not answer this question. This indicates a clear duality.

Ahem.

I don't believe Jesus (pbuh) to be God. I claimed Jesus to be ONE in message not in Godhead.

By the way I believe in the Oneness of God, NO TRINITY, NO DUALTY, I believe in the ONENESS of God.

Peace be upon you

 

[stretched]

Yo c20,

All well and good, but then why would Jesus say that he did not know the time. If the Father is his inner being or whatever, they are one, and they would both know the time. The statement becomes pointless. I think you are trying hard to circumvent the obvious paradox. There is no logical answer other that an indication of a duality. You are stuck in a cycle of religious psychobabble dude, so 10/10 for passion but your rhetoric does not answer the question. In your perspective then, the question becomes: "Why does god not know the time?"

Yo 786,

I hear you. I suppose if one stands far enough back, the view would be "one". Is this god?

Ahem.