Jesus is not God

SVRP said:
Thank you for the reply, 786, but you did ask for no commentary when you had responded. Jesus also said...

John 8:19 So they were saying to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also."
John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

Therefore, to know Jesus was to know God.


John 12:45 "He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?

To see Jesus was to see God


John 12:44 And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me.
John 14:11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

To believe in Jesus was to believe in God


Mark 9:37 "Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me."

To receive Jesus was to receive God


John 15:23 "He who hates Me hates My Father also."

To hate Jesus was to hate God


John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

To honor Jesus was to honor God.
Click to expand...

I'm giving you a hint which will help you answer the questions.

Hint: Jesus was a prophet of God. He had the word of God, and also preached the Word of God.

Use the above hint to answer your own questions.

As for the rest of your post, they require a more explanatory response. Inshallah (God willing) I will reply to those questions when I have more time.

Peace be upon you :)
 
Please. Does anybody really still take the Jesus=God thing literally? Come on!!! I love Jesus' teachings and all -- I live by 'em, mostly -- but isn't that idea just a little bizarro? Do any of you "scientists" REALLY believe it? REALLY?

I'm stunned.
 
He is Our Father. The First and The Last. The Father of all Human Beings. He is Who Is.
We are sons by adoption. He is The Son of God through whom all things came into being.

peace

c20
 
pixel: Please. Does anybody really still take the Jesus=God thing literally? Come on!!! I love Jesus' teachings and all -- I live by 'em, mostly -- but isn't that idea just a little bizarro? Do any of you "scientists" REALLY believe it? REALLY?

I'm stunned.
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M*W: Welcome to the wonderful and crazy world of sciforums, pixel! Most of us on this forum don't believe the Jesus=God equation. Unfortunately, there are still a few delusional members out there who do. I've read nothing at all by scientists who support the Jesus=God equation. Even the learned members who are christians cannot provide a believeable theory. I feel you will be right at home here! Welcome!
 
pavlosmarcos: it's not my father, so therefore not the father of all human beings.
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M*W: Nor mine.
 
Thanks, MW.

For those of you who used the Bible as your backup... Let's say the Bible were literally completely true (in its reporting of events), and Jesus really DID say "I am the Lord". So what? To accept that argument as true, you'd have to first assume the premise that everything Jesus said is absolutely true and irrefutable, which means he is some kind of superhuman beyond reproach or questioning, like a God -- and that premise is in the argument, which makes the whole thing circular and not valid.

<b>People, I am God, more than you are.</b> Do you accept that? If not, why not? And can't you apply that same resistance to anybody else's claims of Godhood?

I feel a twinge of guilt writing this, since the idea of Jesus and God really helped me in my childhood and I still take comfort in Jesus' teachings... But do we have to engage in this superlative stuff? I just don't see the need to do it. What Jesus said is still beautiful, even if he isn't some kind of holier "Son of God".
 
pixel: Thanks, MW.

For those of you who used the Bible as your backup... Let's say the Bible were literally completely true (in its reporting of events), and Jesus really DID say "I am the Lord". So what? To accept that argument as true, you'd have to first assume the premise that everything Jesus said is absolutely true and irrefutable, which means he is some kind of superhuman beyond reproach or questioning, like a God -- and that premise is in the argument, which makes the whole thing circular and not valid.
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M*W: Thanks, pixel. My point is that everything written in the NT quoting Jesus, was actually written by Paul, who never knew Jesus, so it is not direct quotation from Jesus. Therefore, everything Paul says is a lie. Paul did not live in Jesus' time, and he wrote the epistles from 40-50AD. Later, 70-100AD the gospels were written from Paul's earlier written epistles. The reason the gospels don't agree is because Paul was dictating to Mark, Matthew and Luke, who wrote what Paul told them to write. The Gospel of John was written about 95-100AD. Resent biblical research by biblical scholars say that Mary Magdalene wrote the Gospel of John and Revelations -- plus the Gospel of Mary Magdalene which I just finished reading.
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pixel: <b>People, I am God, more than you are.</b> Do you accept that? If not, why not? And can't you apply that same resistance to anybody else's claims of Godhood?
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M*W: I would agree with that if you are speaking to christians who don't see themselves as God. After all, it's the christians who are guilty of believing in a dying demigod savior.
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pixel: I feel a twinge of guilt writing this, since the idea of Jesus and God really helped me in my childhood and I still take comfort in Jesus' teachings... But do we have to engage in this superlative stuff? I just don't see the need to do it. What Jesus said is still beautiful, even if he isn't some kind of holier "Son of God".
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M*W: Whatever you find comfort in is a good thing. We all need our comfortable places to go to when needed. Christians find themselves comforted by Jesus, and that's... okay. The problem I have is when they try to push their 'comfortable places' on the rest of us who have found our comfort to be in other places than in the christian Jesus=God.
 
786 said:
I'm giving you a hint which will help you answer the questions.

Hint: Jesus was a prophet of God. He had the word of God, and also preached the Word of God.

Use the above hint to answer your own questions.
Click to expand...
And here is another hint that answers the questions.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word; and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."


“[If] Jesus was anything other than God in human form we are lost.

The reason for this is that only a sinless person could die as a substitute for our sins. (Rom 3:22-23 NIV) This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We have all sinned, and if Jesus was born into sin, meaning that He was solely a human, then He would have had His own sins to die for and could not have died for ours. (Heb 4:15 NIV) For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. Jesus was tempted just like us but He never sinned. He was born sinless and He lived a sinless life.

Many people and religions claim the Jesus never said He was God. Is that true? Well maybe if you try to find those words: "I am God" in the writings of what Jesus said. However, He most certainly did claim to be God in other ways. The Jews knew that only God can forgive sins, so they understood what Jesus was saying when He healed the lame man and said: (Mat 9:2 NIV) Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven." In effect He was claiming here to be God and to have the right to forgive sins, which belonged to God alone.

When Moses saw the burning bush, and God talked to him and told him to go to Egypt, Moses asked who should he say sent him. God answered: (Exo 3:14 NIV) God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" Now look at what Jesus said (John 8:58 NIV) "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" A man could not claim that, Abraham was born thousands of years before Jesus. The wording itself tells us that Jesus was claiming that He was the great I AM, or in other words God.

Let's look at another statement that Jesus made: (John 10:28-33 NIV) I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." There was no doubt in the Jews mind that Jesus was claiming to be God.

(Mat 10:1 NIV) He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness. No one but God could give this kind of authority. Not only did He claim to have the authority but He was able to give it to others, who were then able to use it. No prophet or good man could do this.

Could Jesus have been just a good man and God loved Him enough to promote Him to God status? No, would you call a chronic liar a good man? Of course not, but if Jesus was not really God then He had to be either a liar or a crazy person, because He kept claiming to be God.

Okay so He was God, but does that mean He was not really a human? No again, He was both. He came to earth as a human but remained God. Why is this important? Well for one we are told that this is how we are to judge if a teaching comes from God or not. (1 John 4:2 NIV) This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

Why was it important for Jesus to come as a human? It is important to us because since He came as one of us He understands our temptations, our trials, and our problems. God often asks us to go through things that we think are tough but He is not asking us to do anything that He has not also gone through as Jesus Christ the human being. He showed His love for us by becoming one of us for a short time and dying to pay for our sins.
Every time someone denies that Jesus was God and came to earth as a human being, they are denying our salvation. There is no other way to obtain forgiveness from God except to accept Jesus Christ as your savior. So if you don't believe He was who He said He was, you are in effect saying that He cannot forgive you…” (quoted from http://www.behindthebadge.net/apologetics/discuss19.html)
 
I don't know. The veracity of the NT (and <i>certainly</i> the OT) is not something I can comment on since I don't know much about the research done on it all, but I have to assume it is not a factual account but rather a representation of the "gist" of the message, loosely worked around a foundation of facts. To say that Mark is a liar, to me is just about as true as saying Van Gogh is a liar. At any rate, I do agree that the NT can't be taken as a historical account.

This individual being God thing just strikes me as dated and unsophisticated. I myself believe that we are extensions of a Creator, and so in a sense one could figuratively say we're all "God", but to say that <i>one</i> human being is MORE God seems so outlandish, I don't even know where to begin to address it... Bah, I'm just repeating myself.

MW, I'm curious. Why do you devote so much energy to Christianity, and not other religions? Are they less offensive to you, and why? (Again, just curious.)
 
pixel: I don't know. The veracity of the NT (and <i>certainly</i> the OT) is not something I can comment on since I don't know much about the research done on it all, but I have to assume it is not a factual account but rather a representation of the "gist" of the message, loosely worked around a foundation of facts.
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M*W: You could be right. I've studied the bible intensely. The more I studied it, the farther I left it behind.
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pixel: To say that Mark is a liar, to me is just about as true as saying Van Gogh is a liar. At any rate, I do agree that the NT can't be taken as a historical account.
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M*W: Mark being a literal liar I don't know, but I do know Mark was used by Paul to confirm the earlier epistles he had written. Paul was the master manipulator of the NT. I don't know that Mark lied, but I do know he was commissioned (i.e. coerced) to write the gospel (and biblical scholars have not determined Mark to actually written by mark. It very well could have been Paul who wrote Mark). About Van Gogh, I know he was a depressed alcoholic who cut off his own ear, but I've never read where he was a liar.
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pixel: This individual being God thing just strikes me as dated and unsophisticated. I myself believe that we are extensions of a Creator, and so in a sense one could figuratively say we're all "God", but to say that <i>one</i> human being is MORE God seems so outlandish, I don't even know where to begin to address it... Bah, I'm just repeating myself.
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M*W: No, you're not repeating yourself. Sometimes it takes me three or four times to read posts before I can reply. When I came to sciforums I was a former catholic who came to the conclusion that Jesus was not a savior. Being the rebel that I am, I went searching for the truth over many years of research, and I came to this undeniable conclusion. For many years I held the belief that there was a creator-god who created the universe, and I believed all creation was god, especially humanity who are the highest created beings that we know of. I believed that Humanity=God. Then I came here to sciforums, and began reading atheists' posts, and I came to believe that it was impossible for a creator=god to exist, but if a creator=god did exist, then that creator=god was humanity. I still believe in humanity as the highest power around, and humanity does have the knowledge and science to advance our civilization. For example, the past 100 years (1904-2004ce) of man's technology equals to the past 22,000 years of man's technology. I read this somewhere, but I don't remember the source. If there is truly a god, it is humanity.
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pixel: MW, I'm curious. Why do you devote so much energy to Christianity, and not other religions? Are they less offensive to you, and why? (Again, just curious.)
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M*W: I guess the answer to your question is that I was a devout christian at one time, but it lied to me -- it lies to everyone. I enjoy reading about all religions, cultures, civilizations, people in earlier times, etc., but I can't prove them all wrong, so I'll just focus on christianity for now, because that is where my experience lies. Because I don't know other religions as well as I do christianity, I don't see them as offensive as christianity has been to me.

Thank you for your reply!
 
Medicine Woman said:
pixel: I don't know. The veracity of the NT (and <i>certainly</i> the OT) is not something I can comment on since I don't know much about the research done on it all, but I have to assume it is not a factual account but rather a representation of the "gist" of the message, loosely worked around a foundation of facts.
*************
M*W: You could be right. I've studied the bible intensely. The more I studied it, the farther I left it behind.
*************
pixel: To say that Mark is a liar, to me is just about as true as saying Van Gogh is a liar. At any rate, I do agree that the NT can't be taken as a historical account.
*************
M*W: Mark being a literal liar I don't know, but I do know Mark was used by Paul to confirm the earlier epistles he had written. Paul was the master manipulator of the NT. I don't know that Mark lied, but I do know he was commissioned (i.e. coerced) to write the gospel (and biblical scholars have not determined Mark to actually written by mark. It very well could have been Paul who wrote Mark). About Van Gogh, I know he was a depressed alcoholic who cut off his own ear, but I've never read where he was a liar.
*************
pixel: This individual being God thing just strikes me as dated and unsophisticated. I myself believe that we are extensions of a Creator, and so in a sense one could figuratively say we're all "God", but to say that <i>one</i> human being is MORE God seems so outlandish, I don't even know where to begin to address it... Bah, I'm just repeating myself.
*************
M*W: No, you're not repeating yourself. Sometimes it takes me three or four times to read posts before I can reply. When I came to sciforums I was a former catholic who came to the conclusion that Jesus was not a savior. Being the rebel that I am, I went searching for the truth over many years of research, and I came to this undeniable conclusion. For many years I held the belief that there was a creator-god who created the universe, and I believed all creation was god, especially humanity who are the highest created beings that we know of. I believed that Humanity=God. Then I came here to sciforums, and began reading atheists' posts, and I came to believe that it was impossible for a creator=god to exist, but if a creator=god did exist, then that creator=god was humanity. I still believe in humanity as the highest power around, and humanity does have the knowledge and science to advance our civilization. For example, the past 100 years (1904-2004ce) of man's technology equals to the past 22,000 years of man's technology. I read this somewhere, but I don't remember the source. If there is truly a god, it is humanity.
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pixel: MW, I'm curious. Why do you devote so much energy to Christianity, and not other religions? Are they less offensive to you, and why? (Again, just curious.)
*************
M*W: I guess the answer to your question is that I was a devout christian at one time, but it lied to me -- it lies to everyone. I enjoy reading about all religions, cultures, civilizations, people in earlier times, etc., but I can't prove them all wrong, so I'll just focus on christianity for now, because that is where my experience lies. Because I don't know other religions as well as I do christianity, I don't see them as offensive as christianity has been to me.

Thank you for your reply!
Click to expand...

You will have to give account for the words you have spoken against Paul.
 
c20 why, you question your god all the time, and M*W does not believe in your god, so again why.
is paul your god.
 
MW, I see. Sometimes I feel offended too, by the Church. But then sometimes I consider the general intention, and I feel less pissed off.

Still, sometimes I pine for the old days when Catholicism soothed me and guided my choices. I might have been a happier and nicer person then -- I don't know.
 
Medicine Woman said:
David F.: Yes
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M*W: Please provide names and cite published research.
Click to expand...
You probably have a copy of the published research, which was published by all the greatest minds of their time, and long before any of the current so-called scholarly research . It is called the New Testement. Is it as accurate as the current group? Probably, and it has one attribute none of the current batch has, it has stood the test of time (almost 17 centuries).

Now, don't go off and say you reject this scholarly research, because I will just have to say I reject your scholarly research and that puts us at an impass. Since mine was definietly closer in time to the source, I think I will stick with mine.
 
SVRP said:
And here is another hint that answers the questions.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word; and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."


“[If] Jesus was anything other than God in human form we are lost.

The reason for this is that only a sinless person could die as a substitute for our sins. (Rom 3:22-23 NIV) This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We have all sinned, and if Jesus was born into sin, meaning that He was solely a human, then He would have had His own sins to die for and could not have died for ours. (Heb 4:15 NIV) For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. Jesus was tempted just like us but He never sinned. He was born sinless and He lived a sinless life.

Many people and religions claim the Jesus never said He was God. Is that true? Well maybe if you try to find those words: "I am God" in the writings of what Jesus said. However, He most certainly did claim to be God in other ways. The Jews knew that only God can forgive sins, so they understood what Jesus was saying when He healed the lame man and said: (Mat 9:2 NIV) Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven." In effect He was claiming here to be God and to have the right to forgive sins, which belonged to God alone.

When Moses saw the burning bush, and God talked to him and told him to go to Egypt, Moses asked who should he say sent him. God answered: (Exo 3:14 NIV) God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" Now look at what Jesus said (John 8:58 NIV) "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" A man could not claim that, Abraham was born thousands of years before Jesus. The wording itself tells us that Jesus was claiming that He was the great I AM, or in other words God.

Let's look at another statement that Jesus made: (John 10:28-33 NIV) I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." There was no doubt in the Jews mind that Jesus was claiming to be God.

(Mat 10:1 NIV) He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness. No one but God could give this kind of authority. Not only did He claim to have the authority but He was able to give it to others, who were then able to use it. No prophet or good man could do this.

Could Jesus have been just a good man and God loved Him enough to promote Him to God status? No, would you call a chronic liar a good man? Of course not, but if Jesus was not really God then He had to be either a liar or a crazy person, because He kept claiming to be God.

Okay so He was God, but does that mean He was not really a human? No again, He was both. He came to earth as a human but remained God. Why is this important? Well for one we are told that this is how we are to judge if a teaching comes from God or not. (1 John 4:2 NIV) This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

Why was it important for Jesus to come as a human? It is important to us because since He came as one of us He understands our temptations, our trials, and our problems. God often asks us to go through things that we think are tough but He is not asking us to do anything that He has not also gone through as Jesus Christ the human being. He showed His love for us by becoming one of us for a short time and dying to pay for our sins.
Every time someone denies that Jesus was God and came to earth as a human being, they are denying our salvation. There is no other way to obtain forgiveness from God except to accept Jesus Christ as your savior. So if you don't believe He was who He said He was, you are in effect saying that He cannot forgive you…” (quoted from http://www.behindthebadge.net/apologetics/discuss19.html)
Click to expand...

You have just copied from some site and repeated your questions. So there isn't anything new here. Wait for my answers please and stop repeating the same questions which you have already asked, or those which have been already answered.

Peace be upon you :)
 
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