Bells
Staff member
I think it is more the case that women are tired of men trying to debate and decide what comes out of our vaginas, and when and how.
'It's a child not a choice...but not if you were raped'
- Thread starter visceral_instinct
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I think it is more the case that women are tired of men trying to debate and decide what comes out of our vaginas, and when and how.
I think it is more the case that women are tired of men trying to debate and decide what comes out of our vaginas, and when and how.
Hey remember the testicles you were pumped out of!. Don't take all the credit like we did some work too ^_^
peace and blessings
Vocab Lesson: "reproductive coercion"
Though not a scientific study, a report from the national Domestic Violence Hotline offers some striking results:
It is difficult, admittedly, to wrap one's head around the suggestions. According to Dr. Elizabeth Miller, who designed the survey and has published previously on the subject of reproductive coercion, the question frequently arises as to what the men in these cases are thinking.
The data sheds some light on STD communication and unplanned pregnancy rates among younger victims of intimate violence.
Lisa James, of the Family Violence Prevention Fund in San Francisco, asserted that while the increased attention to reproductive coercion might be new, it is doubtful that the phenomenon itself is.
I cannot say just why this particular story caught me so off guard. Perhaps I've let my cynicism get ahead of me, but I really don't know what to make of the implications. Hell, I have to figure out just what those implications are before I can understand what they mean. This is the kind of report that makes my head hurt.
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Notes:
Rabin, Roni Caryn. "Report Details Sabotage of Birth Control". The New York Times. February 15, 2011; page D6. NYTimes.com. February 14, 2011. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/15/health/research/15pregnant.html
Though not a scientific study, a report from the national Domestic Violence Hotline offers some striking results:
Men who abuse women physically and emotionally may also sabotage their partners' birth control, pressuring them to become pregnant against their will, new reports suggest.
Several small studies have described this kind of coercion among low-income teenagers and young adults with a history of violence by intimate partners. Now, a report being released Tuesday by the federally financed National Domestic Violence Hotline says 1 in 4 women who agreed to answer questions after calling the hot line said a partner had pressured them to become pregnant, told them not to use contraceptives, or forced them to have unprotected sex.
The report was based on answers from more than 3,000 women, but it was not a research study, those involved said.
"It was very eye-opening," said Lisa James, director of health at the Family Violence Prevention Fund in San Francisco, which worked with the hot line on the report. "There were stories about men refusing to wear a condom, forcing sex without a condom, poking holes in condoms, flushing birth control pills down the toilet.
"There were lots of stories about hiding the birth control pills — that she kept 'losing' her birth control pills, until she realized that he was hiding them," Ms. James added.
One respondent described having to hide in the bathroom to take her pill. Another said that when she got her period recently, her partner was "furious."
The hot line's report did not include a comparison group and did not gather information about the participants, who were questioned anonymously; nor was it published in a peer-reviewed journal. It was based on answers to four questions posed to 3,169 women around the country who contacted the domestic violence hot line between Aug. 16 and Sept. 26, 2010, who were not in immediate danger and who agreed to participate. About 6,800 callers refused to answer the questions.
(Rabin)
Several small studies have described this kind of coercion among low-income teenagers and young adults with a history of violence by intimate partners. Now, a report being released Tuesday by the federally financed National Domestic Violence Hotline says 1 in 4 women who agreed to answer questions after calling the hot line said a partner had pressured them to become pregnant, told them not to use contraceptives, or forced them to have unprotected sex.
The report was based on answers from more than 3,000 women, but it was not a research study, those involved said.
"It was very eye-opening," said Lisa James, director of health at the Family Violence Prevention Fund in San Francisco, which worked with the hot line on the report. "There were stories about men refusing to wear a condom, forcing sex without a condom, poking holes in condoms, flushing birth control pills down the toilet.
"There were lots of stories about hiding the birth control pills — that she kept 'losing' her birth control pills, until she realized that he was hiding them," Ms. James added.
One respondent described having to hide in the bathroom to take her pill. Another said that when she got her period recently, her partner was "furious."
The hot line's report did not include a comparison group and did not gather information about the participants, who were questioned anonymously; nor was it published in a peer-reviewed journal. It was based on answers to four questions posed to 3,169 women around the country who contacted the domestic violence hot line between Aug. 16 and Sept. 26, 2010, who were not in immediate danger and who agreed to participate. About 6,800 callers refused to answer the questions.
(Rabin)
It is difficult, admittedly, to wrap one's head around the suggestions. According to Dr. Elizabeth Miller, who designed the survey and has published previously on the subject of reproductive coercion, the question frequently arises as to what the men in these cases are thinking.
"Some have an intense desire for a nuclear family, and many who had experiences of a dysfunctional family home want something better," she said. Some young men, she said, "want to leave a legacy, and say, 'I'm not sure how long I'm going to be around.' Gang-affiliated young men want the status that comes with having babies from multiple women."
The data sheds some light on STD communication and unplanned pregnancy rates among younger victims of intimate violence.
Lisa James, of the Family Violence Prevention Fund in San Francisco, asserted that while the increased attention to reproductive coercion might be new, it is doubtful that the phenomenon itself is.
I cannot say just why this particular story caught me so off guard. Perhaps I've let my cynicism get ahead of me, but I really don't know what to make of the implications. Hell, I have to figure out just what those implications are before I can understand what they mean. This is the kind of report that makes my head hurt.
____________________
Notes:
Rabin, Roni Caryn. "Report Details Sabotage of Birth Control". The New York Times. February 15, 2011; page D6. NYTimes.com. February 14, 2011. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/15/health/research/15pregnant.html
how old i am and what i do for a living is not pertinent to this topic. that's rather immature of you. is this your usual tactic when you can't hold a discussion?
you have totally taken this out of context. a female should not have to bear a child from rape as that is inhumane. it is the seed of the rapist.
if you would actually force a female to have a child from rape, then you are exceedingly inhumane both to the fetus and to the pregnant woman.
btw, it is rewarding the rapist for her to have to carry the child full-term. if you can't understand that, there is no helping you.
that's inhumane since the care for the child is more important than just it's existence. it can exist in very adverse and impoverished situations but that would not be a loving gesture.
this is a really easy one to answer actually. just place yourself in the situation of the fetus and according to your values, you have the answer.
i would not want or expect a pregnant woman to carry and birth me if i was a product of rape. i would find that exceedingly selfish and insensitive of me to do expect that.
also, i would not want to be born to someone that did not want me in the first place or is considering abortion. i would rather be aborted than brought into a situation where my mother would reject me or give me up for adoption.
i would not want or expect a pregnant woman to carry and birth me if i was a product of rape. i would find that exceedingly selfish and insensitive of me to do expect that.
also, i would not want to be born to someone that did not want me in the first place or is considering abortion. i would rather be aborted than brought into a situation where my mother would reject me or give me up for adoption.
You came from a cluster of cells that could have been flushed out. You're not any better than a fetus, visceral. You're just older than one.
If you think that's an accomplishment, then I have news for ya: it ain't.
Some humans are more intelligent than others. I think you would oppose it if humans more intelligent than you decided to usurp your right to have a future.
Come on, you know better.
A conscious, walking human is not remotely comparable to some cells. One can think, feel, decide what kind of person it wants to be, etc. One isn't even conscious.
Yes - I'd oppose if more intelligent people decided to kill me. I certainly wouldn't demand that they give up their bodily autonomy to benefit me, though, and accuse them of usurping my right to have a future if they defended themselves.
WillNever
Valued Senior Member
Hilarious.
I think it is more the case that women are tired of men trying to debate and decide what comes out of our vaginas, and when and how.
Aw Bells, you're well aware men are far more interested in what comes in your vaginas, and when and how.
Bells
Staff member
Aw Bells, you're well aware men are far more interested in what comes in your vaginas, and when and how.
And as Tiassa was unfortunate enough to discover, or come to the realisation, that some men are too interested in what comes in our vaginas and when and how.
Why? "Abusive male uses pregnancy to control woman" is not exactly some startling new development, is it?
Again, not seeing the confusion. Creating a multi-decade obligation to bind an abused victim to one's control seems like exactly what an abusive husband/male would do. Is the problem that Dr. Miller assumes that abusive men want to alienate their spouses, or something?
That's an awfully obtuse way to refer to a man's children, no?
Bells
Staff member
How silly of me to forget that the man owns the woman's vagina and therefore owns all that comes out of it.
I find it interesting that so many men here in this thread are interested in what women expell from their collective vaginas, even when these men have nothing to do with these women and do not even know them.
Do you know what kills me about the abortion debate? It is often men, completely uninvolved men, who attempt to determine what rights a woman should have over her reproductive system. Many men would be uncomfortable or find it abusive to control their partner's contraception and rightly so, it is a form of domestic abuse. But how many of these men sit there and comment on a woman's reproductive rights as if it is something that concerns them, even though they could be speaking of a woman on the other side of the world?
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Perhaps it's a question of prevalence
In the end, no. But it does elevate domestic and intimate violence into the range of sociopathy.
Perhaps, for me, it's a matter of prevalence. I could certainly imagine such behavior, but I would not have thought it as common as the NDVH survey suggests. I probably, if quizzed before seeing the article, would not have thought it one in eight, or one in ten. I'm not sure what I would have guessed, but one in four is well beyond the range.
Unless, of course, they are the sort that resents or despises children and parenthood. But we can, if we simply read the article (or, even, the excerpts) find something of an answer.
Actually, I'll just leave it to Dr. Miller, and thus reiterate:
Part of what has me reeling here is not just the article's relation to this thread, but the number issues and people this sort of behavior can affect.
Quadraphonics said:
In the end, no. But it does elevate domestic and intimate violence into the range of sociopathy.
Perhaps, for me, it's a matter of prevalence. I could certainly imagine such behavior, but I would not have thought it as common as the NDVH survey suggests. I probably, if quizzed before seeing the article, would not have thought it one in eight, or one in ten. I'm not sure what I would have guessed, but one in four is well beyond the range.
Unless, of course, they are the sort that resents or despises children and parenthood. But we can, if we simply read the article (or, even, the excerpts) find something of an answer.
Actually, I'll just leave it to Dr. Miller, and thus reiterate:
"Some have an intense desire for a nuclear family, and many who had experiences of a dysfunctional family home want something better," she said. Some young men, she said, "want to leave a legacy, and say, 'I'm not sure how long I'm going to be around.' Gang-affiliated young men want the status that comes with having babies from multiple women."
Part of what has me reeling here is not just the article's relation to this thread, but the number issues and people this sort of behavior can affect.
Both men and women have equal stakes in the fates of their children. The implication that men have no say because babies come out of females is as offensive and wrong as it is inane.
You don't see why American men might care about American abortion laws? You don't see how such directly affects them, their spouses/girlfriends/whatevers, their family planning, their children?
Because I'm not seeing much mystery, there. Are men not also parents?
Don't be absurd. There is no way for anyone - male or female - to be "completely uninvolved" in national legislation determining the availability of abortion. Everyone has a direct stake in that, even if the female one is more immediately pressing.
It is something that concerns men, and rightly so. Are men not also parents? Does the fact of a pregnancy not necessarily imply that a man is already "concerned?" Or does the male concern with family end when he blows his load?
This thread is a bunch of Americans discussing American abortion legislation. Which is to say that it is not a good platform for browbeating Americans into silence by invoking cultural autonomy or relativism or whatever. In those terms, you're the one who lacks standing. Nothing directly at issue in this thread will ever affect you unless you decide to move to the USA.
Not that such is a respectable endeavour even when targetted appropriately. Especially from a mod - you are still a mod, aren't you? And yet you spend all your energy on personal crusades, employing troll tactics. You're an embarassment.
But, from whence the assumption that such is typical of abusive males?
On the contrary, I tend to view them as embracing parenthood and family - the abuse is about their desire to exercise total control of such, to reduce them into tokens of his power. The violence, then, is a reaction to the insecurity this engenders - the abuser depends very heavily on the continued acceptance of his victims to legitimate himself, and so lives in constant fear that they will some day assert themselves and leave him alone and powerless. And this is why so much of the abuse is more about undermining the victim's sense of independence or self-worth, rather than just plain old sadism.
So it makes total sense that somebody like that would want more kids - that's more obligation of thw spouse to him, more opportunities to control and undermine, etc. Seems like the most natural thing in the world, to me. They typically see themselves as good guys doing the right thing and trying to raise a good family, but victimized by selfish, unappreciative spouses and undermined by disrespectful children.
Sure, I read that the first time around, but it still seems both shallow and obtuse. Okay, the gang-member one I can see being prevalent in a certain subculture. But "leave a legacy" or "do better than his bad upbringing?" Those both strike me as simultaneously missing the actual issue (i.e., they apply to everyone, abuser or otherwise) and in the same class of reductively idiotic sociological theorizing as "men hunt and spread their seed, women sit in the cave and raise children."
Bells
Staff member
Do you think a man who forces a woman to get pregnant by tampering with her birth control or uses fear and violence to coerce her into sex without contraception should have a say?
Is that when the child becomes solely his since he wanted it more or enough to rape and/or beat a woman into submission?
Should a rapist have "equal stakes" in the fate of the children or pregnancies that result from the rape?
Of course they are. But this subject is about rape.
Should rapists care about American Abortion Laws? Do you think it affects their family planning with their victims?
Do you deem a rapist a parent of their victim's child? Should they have a say over whether their victim aborts the child or not?
Really, it isn't that much of a mystery, is it?
Let us imagine you live in, say, California for example. Do you have a stake in whether a rape victim from New York aborts the pregnancy that resulted from the rape?
If a man rapes a woman and she falls pregnant, or if he coerces her or abuses her into not using contraception or tampers with her contraception along with the abuse, do you think he has a right to be concerned with her choice to end the pregnancy she did not want?
Do you think you should have a say in whether she has access to it or not?
Really? VI is suddenly American now?
Your opinion of me aside, and really, it breaks my heart that you feel that way, can you point to me where in the OP it states that this thread is about American men and abortion laws in America and how it and why you seem to think this is about American couples instead of abortion being made available to rape victims and the hypocrisy involved in the debate when rape comes into play? Because at this point, I, as a moderator, could very well call you a troll for refusing to stick to the topic of this thread as stated clearly in the OP and even in the title of this thread and point out that your personal insults are against the rules of this site. So step wisely little man.
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Have you seen the mess from an abortion? It's awful! I can't speak for women on this issue, but personally, I think abortion is wrong.