'It's a child not a choice...but not if you were raped'

[birch]

From what I've noticed it seems that people who say that abortion is okay in cases of incest and/or rape aren't really as much pro-life as they are "sluts should be punished for their sins". Women who are raped, as long as they don't give of the aura of a slutty whore, are victims and should not be punished and I guess incest just grosses people out, so they are willing to keep any products of it as far away as possible no matter what the means. People who are really pro-life must consider all human life to be life regardless of how or why it came to be. So whether its mother was the perfect little virgin who was raped or if its mother is also its sister and grandmother or if its presence is causing fatal complications for its mother that fetus is still a potential human who should have the same rights as those already born. Being pro-choice allows for more wiggle room in one's personal beliefs, but being pro-life doesn't allow for next to any.

i find it really amazing how people talk about what happens to pregnancy as if the mother and her goddamn dna has nothing to do with her. as if this is just an issue that anyone and everyone has more rights over than her.

it's her DNA! she is carrying it, not like carrying it in a basket, she has to nurture it and grow this child which is part of her dna.

as for RAPE! it is the rapist's seed and dna. what kind of MONSTERS cannot understand how horrific it is to have to carry and nurture your RAPIST'S CHILD WHICH FORCED IT TO BE MIXED WITH YOURS!!!

it is a horrendous, perverted and deepest volation which is rape and on top of it, the woman is going to be forced to carry, nurture and deliver this rapist's child into the world???

you sick mofos! this thread is starting to make me very angry.

the ramifications have been explained OVER, AND OVER, AND OVER, AND OVER but it's overlooked and that is more sick than abortion. these pro-lifers never look past the child being born. you have to wonder what kind of sick mind that is as well as they fixate on punishing the mother by making it have the child, citing that it's her slutty or irresponsible behavior. IT HAS BEEN POINTED OUT, THE CHILD WILL END UP BEING PUNISHED AND SUFFER more, not just the woman if it's unwanted or by giving it up for adoption. in the case of rape, pro-lifers could care less how the person who is a product of rape is going to feel about it for the rest of their lives. their solution is probably to lie to the person or keep the truth from them but they probably will find out. why? because they are most likely going to be wanting to know where they came from and what happened as most adoptees have deep longings like that. also, it is really strange how people think adoption is just as good as a natural family when that is usually not true. there are many deep issues that lay buried or are suffered while a mask of a makeshift family is managed with a smile. why? because dna doesn't lie and nurture only goes so far. the deeper and real bond between a natural parent and child is not there no matter how much the adoptive parents like to lie to themself about it (which they do fervently do). when a parent has a child, they can see their dna and themselves in that child and vice versa. there is nothing that can replace that most real connection and therefore understanding. also, i find watching a woman take someone else's baby, even if it was given and pretend it's hers a great travesty, it's utterly despicable born from her desire to have a child so badly to the point of pretending it is hers. it's better than nothing but the child is so cheated in profound emotional ways, it's not "really" their parents! that's another issue that current society tends to overlook and doesn't look into really deeply because they see adoptive people as at least helping the fallout so to speak. but it it's not just that, there is something wrong with someone who sees another person's child as their own, plain and simple. yes, even if they 'raised' it. it's still not really their child no matter how much they convince themselves it is. i think people like this are sick in their own way as i also had an adoptive parent. somehow, it seems they really don't care about that as much as wanting to see the woman punished by forcing her to have the child even if it means the child is going suffer the most. this negates their charade that they are ethical.

secondly, it is inhumane (how many times does this have to be stated) to bring a child into the world where it is unwanted or where adoption is considered a normal protocol. that is terrible.

thirdly, people who have abortions doesn't mean they will never go through with a pregnancy when they are best fit to take care of it.

conclusion: abortion ends up being ethical with all things considered. when abortion becomes counterproductive and unethical is when it is forced (usually). for instance, china has a child limit policy, otherwise there would be too many mouths to feed and then more people starving. as for the number of children that is an issue that may need to be addressed further.


as for the arguments back and forth about males against abortion. there are women who are against abortion so its not an issue of gender.

 

[sifreak21]

how would you like it if you were forced to be born and given up to strangers?

I was and it has caused me more problems and feelings than anyone should have to deal with

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

All of which raises the question of how you can even sustain these fantastical notions of how family, race, etc. are structured in our society. I'd guess you live way out in the sticks somewhere, and rarely get out to civilization?

I've spent most of my life in big American cities--Chicago, Los Angeles and Washington. Surrounded by so-called "families" that are at best dysfunctional and at worst fragmented.

 

[S.A.M.]

as for RAPE! it is the rapist's seed and dna. what kind of MONSTERS cannot understand how horrific it is to have to carry and nurture your RAPIST'S CHILD WHICH FORCED IT TO BE MIXED WITH YOURS!!!

Well I've met such "products" of rape and its hard to tell how they differ from other innocent children. I live in a society where women were so ashamed if they were raped that they preferred to commit suicide believing rape to have contaminated their purity or some such bs. I never saw why any woman should have to punish herself or consider herself as tainted because some man used physical force and violence against her. Similarly I am not sure how any innocent child should be held responsible or considered vile or contaminated because of something their parent has done.

Do you check your friends to ensure that none of them are a product of rape? Would it affect your relationship with them if they had the vile rapist seed and dna etc mixed in their blood?

There are support groups for people conceived of rape just as there are support groups for rape victims and its often very enlightening to listen to these human beings as they describe their feelings of exclusion by society:

I was adopted nearly from birth. At 18, I learned that I was conceived out of a
brutal rape at knife-point by a serial rapist. Like most people, I'd never
considered that abortion applied to my life, but once I received this information,
all of a sudden I realized that, not only does it apply to my life, but it has to do
with my very existence. It was as if I could hear the echoes of all those people
who, with the most sympathetic of tones, would say, “Well, except in cases of
rape. . . ," or who would rather fervently exclaim in disgust: “Especially is cases
of rape!!!” All these people are out there who don’t even know me, but are
standing in judgment of my life, so quick to dismiss it just because of how I was
conceived. I felt like I was now going to have to justify my own existence, that I
would have to prove myself to the world that I shouldn’t have been aborted and
that I was worthy of living. I also remember feeling like garbage because of
people who would say that my life was like garbage -- that I was disposable.

Please understand that whenever you identify yourself as being “pro-choice,” or
whenever you make that exception for rape, what that really translates into is you
being able to stand before me, look me in the eye, and say to me, "I think your
mother should have been able to abort you.” That’s a pretty powerful statement.
I would never say anything like that to someone. I would never say to someone,
“If I had my way, you’d be dead right now.” But that is the reality with which I live.
I challenge anyone to describe for me how it's not. It’s not like people say, “Oh
well, I’m pro-choice except for that little window of opportunity in 1968/69, so that
you, Rebecca, could have been born.” No -- this is the ruthless reality of that position, and I can tell you that it hurts
and it’s mean. But I know that most people don’t put a face to this issue. For them, it’s just a concept – a quick cliché,
and they sweep it under the rug and forget about it. I do hope that, as a child of rape, I can help to put a face and a
voice to this issue.

http://www.rebeccakiessling.com/Othersconceivedinrape.html

What gives any person the right to decide that these people deserve to be killed before they are born?

 

[wynn]

Well I've met such "products" of rape and its hard to tell how they differ from other innocent children. I live in a society where women were so ashamed if they were raped that they preferred to commit suicide believing rape to have contaminated their purity or some such bs. I never saw why any woman should have to punish herself or consider herself as tainted because some man used physical force and violence against her. Similarly I am not sure how any innocent child should be held responsible or considered vile or contaminated because of something their parent has done.

The reality is that a woman who was raped is often considered "impure" or "damaged goods" by the society as well, and it's not likely any man would want to marry her, and her friends and family are also likely to reject her.
So a raped woman would likely be a single mother living in poverty, and potential victim of more rapists.
In that sense, being raped can mean social and economical death for a woman.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

@Sam

But Sam just because some women choose to keep a child conceived of rape doesn't mean that every woman should keep a child conceived of rape. If the child were 13 years old would you say she should be FORCED to keep the child? Or rather should any woman be FORCED to carry a child to term? Because that in effect is what we would be talking about, taking away choice and enforcing an outside will.

By the way Rebecca is a christian convert who belongs to the 700 Club, you know the kind of woman who would send her own children to Jesus camp. I consider her someone who exploits this story for the religious aim of turning over Roe vs. Wade, she's not simply a woman telling you about her life, she's a political instrument.

 

[S.A.M.]

The reality is that a woman who was raped is often considered "impure" or "damaged goods" by the society as well, and it's not likely any man would want to marry her, and her friends and family are also likely to reject her.
So a raped woman would likely be a single mother living in poverty, and potential victim of more rapists.
In that sense, being raped can mean social and economical death for a woman.

Thats a problem with society, not with the woman or child. I'm not sure how embracing such irrational concepts is supposed to resolve such nonsensical attitudes.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Thats a problem with society, not with the woman or child. I'm not sure how embracing such irrational concepts is supposed to resolve such nonsensical attitudes.

Actually no it would be the woman's problem since she is the one who has to suffer from the stigma. But then she would feel happy to be a martyr for Sam

 

[S.A.M.]

@Sam

But Sam just because some women choose to keep a child conceived of rape doesn't mean that every woman should keep a child conceived of rape. If the child were 13 years old would you say she should be FORCED to keep the child? Or rather should any woman be FORCED to carry a child to term? Because that in effect is what we would be talking about, taking away choice and enforcing an outside will.

As I already stated, once a woman is pregnant, there is no "me". The mother is like the only person who can consider the childs POV and for her to decide the child should be put to death is a self centered decision. As to being forced, remember the child has absolutely zero option of defending itself.

By the way Rebecca is a christian convert who belongs to the 700 Club, you know the kind of woman who would send her own children to Jesus camp. I consider her someone who exploits this story for the religious aim of turning over Roe vs. Wade, she's not simply a woman telling you about her life, she's a political instrument.

Its probably the religious inclination in her family that is the reason for her being alive. Are you surprised that she would choose those options but for which, her life would have been dismissed as unnecessary?

Actually no it would be the woman's problem since she is the one who has to suffer from the stigma. But then she would feel happy to be a martyr for Sam

Women have to accustom themselves to breaking glass ceilings in every century. At one time, marital rape was legal and so a lot of children were legally conceived in rape. Women spent entire lifetimes living with both the instruments and products of rape. Is that type of martyrdom preferable? Or should raped women simply kill themselves and save themselves from the bother of facing social stigma? In some societies women are forced to marry their rapists because they have been "compromised" - is that preferable to you as a solution?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

As I already stated, once a woman is pregnant, there is no "me". The mother is like the only person who can consider the childs POV and for her to decide the child should be put to death is a self centered decision. As to being forced, remember the child has absolutely zero option of defending itself.


Its probably the religious inclination in her family that is the reason for her being alive. Are you surprised that she would choose those options but for which, her life would have been dismissed as unnecessary?

Sorry Sam but ask the women you know who are pregnant, they are quite aware that they still exist and remain relevant. Well at least they do in the West anyway!! That statement simply devalues the woman because she is pregnant and tells me everything of how you consider the condition and how you value women who are actually pregnant, its as if the woman herself is no longer important and the only thing that matters is what she's carrying. Its an archaic, warped and neurotic and misogynistic point of view but there you go. A woman doesn't devolve into a simple carrier just because she is pregnant, she still has a mind and feelings and is aware of her own life. A woman is not a breeding pig owned by outside interests to be told what should become of her body, her sex life or her future.

Again just because you repeat over and over that 'its a child' doesn't suddenly turn a fetus into a child. It is YOU who claim that its a child, there are many of us who say it isn't yet a child only a potential to becoming a child.

You miss the point about Rebecca. If a woman wants to have a child and give it up for adoption that is absolutely fine, that's her business. Rebecca is about turning over Roe vs. Wade so that other women are denied a CHOICE to do anything but have children they don't want. She's alive, so what, we all are and none of us had a say in it. Its almost comical for you to go on about the fact that she's here as if you personally know the ones who are not here. I suppose you also hold vigil for every month you have your period to mourn the death of your 'child'. LOL! You probably have little coffins prepared for the wee eggs. Haha!

 

[S.A.M.]

That statement that seems to devalue the woman because she is pregnant tells me everything of how you consider the condition and how you value women who are actually pregnant, its as if the woman herself is no longer important and the only thing that matters is what she's carrying. Its an archaic, warped and neurotic point of view but there you go.

I don't think pregnancy devalues a woman. But just as society does not "own" the woman, I believe the woman does not "own" her child. The child is an individual and in according rights to the woman, one must not have to choose them over the rights of the child. I liken abortion to marital rape. Whatever the rights of the individual in power, there cannot be any form of ownership which denies consent to the unempowered person in the relationship.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I don't think pregnancy devalues a woman. But just as society does not "own" the woman, I believe the woman does not "own" her child. The child is an individual and in according rights to the woman, one must not have to choose them over the rights of the child.

Oh yes she does. She most certainly does own whatever is in her womb just like she owns her body. A fetus is not an individual, not legally and not in anyones mind save the anti-choice folk. The unborn have no rights.

Your argument is that the woman's life and desires are subordinate to a fetus in her womb, that she is a secondary concern. How misogynistic is that! By forcing a woman to carry to term YOU become akin to a rapist who doesn't allow its victims any form of consent.

 

[S.A.M.]

People had similar notions of ownership of women by men. I disagree with any form of ownership which results in death or damage to the innocent party. My ethics are independent of what the laws say. They will eventually catch up with me

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

People had similar notions of ownership of women by men. I disagree with any form of ownership which results in death or damage to the innocent party. My ethics are independent of what the laws say. They will eventually catch up with me

I repeat "Your argument is that the woman's life and desires are subordinate to a fetus in her womb, that she is a secondary concern. How misogynistic is that! By forcing a woman to carry to term YOU become akin to a rapist who doesn't allow its victims any form of consent."

Women are not going to turn back the clock to appease the religious narrow minded such as yourself.

 

[S.A.M.]

I repeat "Your argument is that the woman's life and desires are subordinate to a fetus in her womb, that she is a secondary concern. How misogynistic is that! By forcing a woman to carry to term YOU become akin to a rapist who doesn't allow its victims any form of consent."

Women are not going to turn back the clock to appease the religious narrow minded such as yourself.

The fetus is the unempowered person in the relationship. The woman has no more "right" to kill than any member of society [excepting judiciary and state sanctioned killings, which I also oppose, btw]- no indivdual rights are so valued that they include the right to dispose of some other human being for convenience or due to prejudice against their DNA. I would say medical reasons are the only valid reason for abortion.

Consider your argument in the light of woman as a property in a marriage, where violence against women was both acceptable and legal because the mans desires were not and could not be subordinated to the women and children. The womb is to the fetus what marriage used to be for the woman. A place without consent, where her legal rights did not exist.

Until they did.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

The fetus is the unempowered person in the relationship. The woman has no more "right" to kill than any member of society [excepting judiciary and state sanctioned killings, which I also oppose, btw]- no indivdual rights are so valued that they include the right to dispose of some other human being for convenience or due to prejudice against their DNA. I would say medical reasons are the only valid reason for abortion.

If you consider it a killing then don't have an abortion, I and a host of other men and women do not consider it a killing never mind a child. The only valid reason for an abortion are the ones you deem reasonable for yourself, you have no right to tell others what is reasonable for them in their lives. In other words get your head out of other woman's uterus.

I was just reading this and the attitude is hysterical to say the least and probably where women would find themselves if they accepted this ludicrous notions of a woman's body. Oh yeah he's one of your boys:

"Women were intended to carry children, not pianos. Equal does not mean identical. We all have a equal right to dignity and fulfillment but our path is not the same. Men are fulfilled by supporting and leading a family. Women are fulfilled by devotion to husband and family and by experiencing their love. ( Women can have careers but, for most, marriage and family should be their first priority.) The East Indian girl's charm and beauty would inspire many a man to nest. But with all the study and heavy lifting, her bloom will fade and she'll gain weight. By the time she graduates, she won't turn heads any longer.I hear from men who say most women still have feminine instincts but they can't overcome societal and family pressure. Brian, a 29-year old Californian wrote: "Ya can't... understand the damned frustration I feel about the degradation of the natural roles of man and woman today. Some days I'm made to feel like a caveman that refuses to evolve.
"I've never had a problem getting attention from the opposite sex. I however have never found a real woman who would be one. My last was a 26-year-old Accounting Major. 2 years we were together. I knew she was feminist, but who the hell isn't out here. It wasn't, however, until I met her parents that I saw what I believed to be the root of it all. It was obvious who ran the house in her family, her mother. Her father was just a goofy big kid. In her home she was encouraged to go to school and be independent if verbally then by example. I could tell that there was no way in hell she could ever be appreciated [by her parents, friends] as just a mere homemaker to her family."

http://www.rense.com/general78/power.htm

It may seem unrelated but his notion of what a woman's body is and isn't is what supports the idea that a woman is subordinate to her body. Unlike men of course who are free to do and be whatever they want. Your argument of course being that a woman is subordinate to her womb and whatever fetus she is carrying.

 

[S.A.M.]

a woman is subordinate to her body. Unlike men of course who are free to do and be whatever they want. Your argument of course being that a woman is subordinate to her womb and whatever fetus she is carrying.

I don't think the woman is subordinate to the fetus anymore than I think a husband who does not beat his wife is subordinate to her. I think both the woman and the fetus have equal rights, just as I think both the husband and wife have equal rights. The husband does not own the wife and hence has no right to abuse or kill her. Similarly, the woman does not own her child and has no right to abuse or kill it. I simply do not make a distinction between a child who is killed or abused after he is born or before.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I don't think the woman is subordinate to the fetus anymore than I think a husband who does not beat his wife is subordinate to her. I think both the woman and the fetus have equal rights, just as I think both the husband and wife have equal rights. The husband does not own the wife and hence has no right to abuse or kill her. Similarly, the woman does not own her child and has no right to abuse or kill it. I simply do not make a distinction between a child who is killed or abused after he is born or before.

You think of the woman as subordinate to what hasn't even come into fruition, you believe a woman should not have a choice. You are free to believe that a foetus has equal rights but your freedom ends with you and your own body, you have no right to extend your beliefs in an attempt to end the choices of other women and what they do with their bodies. You say a husband does not own his wife but your argument is that a fetus owns its carrier. You cannot have it both ways you have to choose. So when it comes to choosing I choose the life of the living over that of the unborn.

You are free to think of a fetus as a child if you want to Sam but you cannot use it as an argument to deny abortion as there are more men and women than you can possibly imagine who do not hold this belief. A fetus is a part of a woman's body and the law upholds that decision and not only does it uphold that decision but at least 62% of americans supports abortion on demand and 77% support it under the conditions of rape (yes even among republicans).

 

[visceral_instinct]

Please understand that whenever you identify yourself as being “pro-choice,” or
whenever you make that exception for rape, what that really translates into is you
being able to stand before me, look me in the eye, and say to me, "I think your
mother should have been able to abort you.” That’s a pretty powerful statement.
I would never say anything like that to someone.

I would say that to anyone. Anyone. My sister, my boyfriend who I would die for, Nelson Mandela. Because nobody should be forced to carry a child against their will.

 

[wynn]

Women have to accustom themselves to breaking glass ceilings in every century.

Or should raped women simply kill themselves and save themselves from the bother of facing social stigma?

As long as it isn't you, right?