their there illegally. your not allowed to move your civilian population into an occupied area(Yes we know Israel calls it disputed and acts as if it merely like a border disputel. its not its occupied.) to try and annex it.
Israel, Palestine and the Arab/Israel Conflict
- Thread starter goofyfish
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their there illegally. your not allowed to move your civilian population into an occupied area(Yes we know Israel calls it disputed and acts as if it merely like a border disputel. its not its occupied.) to try and annex it.
pjdude1219 said:
Wait, wait how are Jews in an another country responsible (and thus can be responded to) for kicking out the Palestinians? Clearly in your mind Jews anywhere are somehow responsible and can be punished for the formation of Israel.
Are you really this dense? answer no your just an ideological hack you the why. Yes because other countries who had just been beaten by an Israel armed by the world when they had jack shit would be able to punish those directly responsible. They did so under the idea you have hurt our brethern so well will do the same to yours.
No that is what you pretend I believe. I think the people responsible for it should be punished. I only think those that supported Israel's creation and its continuing crimes should be punished.
On a side note for the last time please quit trolling me with you libel.
On a side Moderator Note (since PMs haven't quite gotten through): Report trolling and libel using the [!report] button top right of any offending post. We can track it better, and it's much less distracting than cycles of wah! and moderator interruptions.
PM moderators if you don't get satisfaction from reporting abuse or other breaches of the forum rules. Stop making things worse with counterproductive statements and back&forth as above. I'll take your word that this was "for the last time", acknowledge you said "please", and issue merely 1 demerit now. I'll do nothing to ElectricFetus, because this is not an appropriate way for you to seek redress. Try me again, and I'll make it a more conspicuous example of what I don't want to see around here anymore.
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Yes, the behavior of the dominating power is inferior: From 1948 onward, forced integration of Jewish immigrants by those who arrived in flotilla's laden with the allies' castoff WWII weaponry would have been far less immoral and problematic than forced ethnic segregation. Zionists made a critical mistake by persecuting people in their way, and the zionist establishment in Israel has yet to come to grips with their crimes.
Would Palestinians have done as much evil if they were armed with all the leftover pity and weaponry that zionists gathered at the close of WWII? We'll never know. But we do know that Jews were integral to the Arab world, and had a particularly equal footing before the violent foundation of Israel, and all of the ethnic cleansing that has been carried out in the name of "protecting" Jews ever since.
To put it another way, Palestinians did not build a vast prison for the Jews. Zionists have succeeded in building a vast open-air prison for Palestinians who will not flee or die out, and unwittingly in instituting Israeli apartheid they have imprisoned themselves as well. Does this make Israelis inferior people to Palestinians? No. Does this mean Israelis have failed a test of their humanity and moral superiority to the Palestinians resisting them? Yes, I think it does.
Israel holds the power. It is within the choices and powers of Israelis to dismantle apartheid, reform their system to respect human rights, and break the cycle of hatred and revenge. The alternative is to continue behaving in a way that will forever prolong the compounding risk of a violent end to a violent enterprise.
Ethnic cleansing is wrong. How hard is that to understand?
As you know, that is a nonsensical sentiment. In the USA we've been through something similar before: We were nearly torn apart by the fight to preserve the institutionalized subjugation of non-whites. We have heard in the USA, South Africa, and many other places that a certain kind of people are incompatible with another, and if they live together all hell will break loose. It's a lie.
Israelis have done things their own way, but they face a similar existential choice as the USA did in our Civil War/Reconstruction years: They can reconcile with those living among them, or they can steep themselves in the anger of themselves and their neighbors until it all boils over and their nation is lost, and the aftermath out of control. The initiative is still in Israel's well-armed hands. Their advantage is not permanent, and the marketeers of zionism know it. That is why this debate heats up all over the world, when the world takes a closer look at Israel: Israel is a sick society that is desperately pretending to be normal. As ever, those who understand and express this thought must emphasize that it is a political dysfunction, and not a genetic or religious one. The solution will be political, and the solution is the re-integration of Jews and non-Jews everywhere, including Israel.
Again how are all the Jews in any Arab country responsible?
Again how are all the Jews in any Arab country responsible?
Again how are all the Jews in any Arab country responsible?
That funny coming from you.
ElectricFetus, will you please direct our attention to the post where pjdude made the assertion that "all Jews in any Arab country [are] responsible"?
& here we goMod note: Please cite the post(s) carefully, because if you are repeating here so repetitively a misrepresentation of his posts, then I'm going to gig you for trolling. I'm not going to get out of my bad mood until people behave more respectfully around here.
& here we goMod note: Please cite the post(s) carefully, because if you are repeating here so repetitively a misrepresentation of his posts, then I'm going to gig you for trolling. I'm not going to get out of my bad mood until people behave more respectfully around here.
He implied the response was valid, I want him to explain how oppressing and kicking out Jews in some country completely unrelated to Israel is a valid response. If that does not mean he putting responsibility on random Jews for Israel then by all means I apologies.
Using the term apartheid is also as aspect of Palestinian propaganda, a talking point. I think you are a victim of a media war (which both sides admittedly are playing). If you accept that apartheid is what's going on, then you will be unable to accept the only plan for peace that has any chance of working, the one with the most public support- a two-state solution. You favor a plan that would flood Israel with fanatical and disgruntled Islamic radicals. The result would be yet another bloody civil war, and refugees. And this time, Israel won't make the mistake of allowing any traditionally Palestinian land to remain in their hands.
It's legitimate for you to challenge the use of the term "apartheid" in the context of Israel. Here's a short video for some background:
If you can't watch it let me know, and I'll find you a transcript, or transcribe it for you myself.
If you can't watch it let me know, and I'll find you a transcript, or transcribe it for you myself.
That is not a logical statement. There is no evidence that identifying institutional apartheid in Israel rules out peacemaking. On the contrary, apartheid is the most glaring obstacle to peace between Jews and non-Jews in Israel and the Mideast.
Absolutely not. In my experience, Israeli oppression of Palestinians has radicalized many unhappy and angry Palestinians, regardless of their various religions.
The war between Jews and non-Jews in Israel is a civil war.
Ethnic cleansing was and ever shall be a mistake in Israel/Palestine.
If a two-state solution were instituted, you can still claim apartheid, which undermines the legitimacy of both states.hypewaders said:
And it has radicalized Israelis, so let's throw them all in the same pot. That should all work out, right? We need pragmatic solutions not self-righteous idealism.
But it's largely just simmering. Would you prefer all-out battles?
I think a case can be made for it, if it reduces violence and death. Are you also in favor of the forceful re-integration of the Amish?
Pardon me butting in.
Two wrongs do not make a right. However it it the responsibility of the Israeli authorities to create firstly, acceptable conditions for dialogue, (unclench the fist) and secondly, to negotiate (include ALL players) accept compromise, and guarentee fair compensation to all parties concerned in the event of re-location.
^ Thanks, good answer, & no intrusion at all, Strawdog.
I do not support a two-state solution. There is not enough remaining of Palestine to constitute a viable state, and Israel knows it. 2-state is a state of perpetual civil war. Israel/Palestine is not viably divisible.
Israel is in physical control of the occupied territories. They have the power and intelligence to make an orderly transition into respect for democracy and universal human rights.
Absolutely.
No- not physical battles. However, we're in a battle of ideas that must be pursued to its logical just end: Coexistence.
No, the Amish are neither imprisoned like Palestinians, nor are they oppressing like Israeli zionists do. They have found a peaceful balance with their neighbors as Israelis must do, and should have done in Palestine a generation ago. If the Amish had attempted to hack out a fortress apartheid state (provided of course that they also found the foreign sponsors to accomplish just that) they would be suffering the same miserable consequences as Israelis are today, as would their victims.
I do not support a two-state solution. There is not enough remaining of Palestine to constitute a viable state, and Israel knows it. 2-state is a state of perpetual civil war. Israel/Palestine is not viably divisible.
Israel is in physical control of the occupied territories. They have the power and intelligence to make an orderly transition into respect for democracy and universal human rights.
Absolutely.
No- not physical battles. However, we're in a battle of ideas that must be pursued to its logical just end: Coexistence.
No, the Amish are neither imprisoned like Palestinians, nor are they oppressing like Israeli zionists do. They have found a peaceful balance with their neighbors as Israelis must do, and should have done in Palestine a generation ago. If the Amish had attempted to hack out a fortress apartheid state (provided of course that they also found the foreign sponsors to accomplish just that) they would be suffering the same miserable consequences as Israelis are today, as would their victims.
I think its very necessary to hear the Palestinian position on all issues. They have been largely denied a platform about what they perceive as the solution to the I-P crisis but when they are allowed to speak, I think we will find that most fears of the Israelis are groundless.
! صحيح (that's right) At the mutually-agreed end of any civil war, it's not normal for the formerly oppressed to rise up violently to tear down a union, and bring back a nakba.
Here for example is a Palestinian POV on what Helen Thomas said, I found it incredibly touching and honest. The entire article is worth a read:
It all boils down to the bizarre image the west has of people in the Middle East.
The purpose of Zionism was self-determination for the Jews in a Democratic system. That would be gone in one state, the Arabs would becomes the most populous, and the Jews would be fucked. Again. No one thinks that is an acceptable outcome except people that hate Jews.
The only reason the Amish are left alone is that they follow a form of Christianity.
The only reason the Amish are left alone is that they follow a form of Christianity.
How would one have forced integration? Surely it would have required more troops? Possible, sure.
Given the history of the region, this is highly unlikely. Incidentally, which of their fears are then not groundless?
And when this black majority scenario played out in a true democratic process in South Africa, were the people calling for an end to race based discrimination "white haters"?
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I don't get why you think a palestinian choice to return in negiotaible. it isn't. it is a legally mandated right.
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